Grappling & Kung-Fu--Myth & Reality

[Kaitain]

Hey Simon - I wondered why you'd left I'll PM you.

The bow/arrow stance or mountain climbing stance is a training device - it's trained low in the form to build strength and power and conditioning and relaxation. My fighting stance is high so that I am mobile - if you watch the video I linked you can see that I work from a high posture, but when I apply force I will drop and use the drop to power the strike.

I would never use a long low bow/arrow stance in a fight - be interested to see how you would

[Antonius]

Hi Sifu Paul (sorry, but 20 years + teaching gets you the title, my friend ).

My fighting stance is high so that I am mobile

My fighting stances (plural) are low so that I am mobile.

[Kaitain]

Hi Antonius - I dont let my students call me it so I'd prefer to be just Paul

Regarding stance height - obviously we have different training ideologies. That's cool - differences are how we understand the world

Can you move as well in a deep stance as a high one? For my part I like to be as mobile as possible with a good range available both up and down. The close range striking I train means I can deliver a lot of force at that height - if I drop lower I find that my power decreases.

There's a well used phrase "fight like you train, train like you fight" - so I can see how you guys work to that. In my system we work the form very low, QIGong very low, but in pushing hands and sparring we work at the sort of height Im at in my video. I tend to be a bit more 'sprung' than that, I was a bit nervous as it was my first demonstration.

Regards

Paul

[Antonius]

I'm not your student, so I can call you Sifu Paul. (But seriously, I understand the reluctance. I'm the same way, although I now accept the title.)

Regarding stance height - obviously we have different training ideologies. That's cool - differences are how we understand the world

I agree. I watched your videos (thanks for those), and there are some major differences, most of which, in my opinion, can be attributed to a different use of stances.

Can you move as well in a deep stance as a high one?

No. I can move better.

For my part I like to be as mobile as possible with a good range available both up and down.

The mobility applies not only to horizontal movement, but also to vertical movement.

There's a well used phrase "fight like you train, train like you fight"

Yes, that's what we do. I learned a similar phrase when I was studying the violin: "Practice like you're in Carnegie Hall, and play in Carnegie Hall like it's practice."

[Kaitain]

Just to clarify - I've only just realised that there are pure Shaolin guys here. I had assumed that everyone did the Taijiquan and the Shaolin - apologies, some of my statements have been predicated on 'taiji specific' principles.

Don't draw too much from the video - I was demonstrating that there was a place for hard/Yang/full in Taijiquan. In the process I managed to badly injure my student - so for those discussing internal power and control, body armour doesnt do any good. I was throwing about 75% of my power from a fixed position and bruised his liver (hence him telling me 'that was enough'). The application before hadnt worked out right (the armour got in the way of the elbow) and so my intent went up a notch and I hit through him.

Anyway - I'll be putting some video up soon on some freestyle pushing hands work that'll show a better height. In grappling range it's good to bed down a bit more since mobility isnt much use anymore.

Antonio - regarding mobility. I know you say "it's better" at a low height - my query would be: can you run as fast over 5 metres at a lower height than at a normal height? My experience is that once the feet go a certain distance apart, mobilty and the ability to change will suffer - purely because stepping requires the hips to be over the standing foot, the closer the feet are together, the less distance for the hips to move in order to change.

If you're saying "I've trained to be as mobile as possible at this low height, and so I dont find it too much of an issue - the pay off in power and stability is worth it", then i get where you're coming from.

If you're saying "I am more mobile at a low height than a high one", then I find that a bit of a stretch. I suppose if you train enough then it becomes true - but I'd argue that trained mobility at a higher stance will be 'more' mobile. Guess it comes down to where the payoff is - Im 18 stone so I can afford to give up a bit of power so I can move

[Alex]

Hello Sifu Kaitain. I'm not sure if you've seen this but we have a lot of videos at this link. http://www.shaolin.org/general/videos.html

[Antonius]

Hey Paul.

Yes, I am a "pure" Shaolinquan guy, although I have also trained Tajiquan from a few teachers. I no longer practice it because I've got my hands full with Shaolinquan.

In the process I managed to badly injure my student - so for those discussing internal power and control, body armour doesnt do any good.[In the process I managed to badly injure my student - so for those discussing internal power and control, body armour doesnt do any good.

It's interesting that you mention this, and we have been discussing it recently in another thread. From watching your video, I had two initial conclusions: Either you have no internal power, or you injured your partner through the vest. It's nice to hear that you have internal power that can penetrate body armor, but I am a bit worried about your partner.

I don't know how much you know about Chinese medicine or remedial qigong therapy, but I will post this information, just to be safe. If you are already aware of this stuff, please just ignore it.

Your partner's bruised liver is the least of his concerns. It is likely that he has some internal energy blockages from those strikes. If he does not know the proper remedial qigong exercises, then he needs to take some herbal medicine. I would recommend that he visit a good Chinese herbalist, explain what happened, and ask for a remedy for "clearing internal qi and blood blockages".

An alternative would be for him to learn the appropriate exercises from one of our instructors. We have several instructors in the UK, including one in Brighton. Please understand that I am in no way trying to steal your student. I am simply worried about him. If you already have the appropriate remedies, then you can ignore all of this. But many people do not have or know the appropriate cures.

can you run as fast over 5 metres at a lower height than at a normal height?

The question sounds relevant, but actually, it is not. We do not run in combat (although we may run away, if we are smart). Speed is essential, but our goal is not merely to get from here to there as fast as possible. Our goal is to protect ourselves and our loved ones. The art of fighting consists of training yourself to avoid or neutralize attacks while maintaining the most advantages. My article here my explain some of this better: http://shaolin.org/shaolin/tactical-retreat.html.

Also, tactical speed is much more important than actual speed. Running is fast, but it is unsafe. So how do we remain safe while also moving with tactical speed? This thread may be of interest: http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4576

If you're saying "I am more mobile at a low height than a high one", then I find that a bit of a stretch.

That is exactly what I am saying (nice pun, by the way). The problem, I believe, is that you equate speed and distance. For example, to evade a kick with a high stance, you need to move your entire body. I don't. I just move the relevant body part (upper or lower), and I only move it as far as I need. This way, I am in a more advantages position to counter. The result is that I arrive earlier by using low stances, which is what really matters in combat.

Best,

[Kaitain]

Hey Antonio - thanks for your concern. He is fine now - some specific QiGong and ginger tea has sorted him out. My teacher gave me some good advice (I am lucky to have someone like that to turn to). Not sure if I buy the Chi blockage bit, but I thank you for your concern. The last hit was the one that hurt him - said his liver felt like it had been set on fire. My bad for being too confident in the armour

I feel you're being a little disingenuous on the mobility front I was talking specifically about movement over distance, not evasion. Evasion is a whole new discussion - if you want to go into it then I'd love to talk turkey I'd say that it kinda falls into the yielding discussion elsewhere - leading into emptiness, borrowing force etc are all attributes that I work. I get where you're coming from though, it's just different

I obviously disagree that you're in a better position

Paul

[Jordan]

Hi Paul,


Welcome to our forum. It is nice to hear about your experiences and I hope you will post more. And thanks for the video clips as well

I wanted to ask..

Not sure if I buy the Chi blockage bit, but I thank you for your concern.

In what way do you not 'buy the Chi blockage bit' ?


Kindly

[Kaitain]

It's not something that any of my taijiquan teachers discuss - I've been hit harder than the hits I deliver by John Ding. He didnt tell me about chhi blockages or anything. I've been with him for 7 years, my teacher has been with him for 12+ and it's never mentioned.

So it's something that is outside of my experience, I cant validate it and you can't convince me of it without me feeling it (Bit Da Bit Gau - not to hit is not to teach). Having hit and been hit a lot of times to no ill effect, I can only conclude that I'm ok as I am. Not criticising what you guys do or believe, just saying that it isnt a part of my own practice.

Cheers

Paul

[Mark A]

Grappling and chi

Hey Paul,
No worries on your beliefs about chi and ours. We believe what we will and we allow others do th same

What you will find is that we will keep coming back to it cos that is what we believe.

Just touching on good mechanic, this is something that we dont ignore. We are not one of the schools that say you just wave you hand and the opponent magically bounces off into the distance

If it had been one of those schools I would have been off and running.

There is actually a lot to our system, but it would take a lot of writing and time to give it full credit.

I would love to meet up for a coffee and discuss the differences with you if you are ever in Edinburgh or I am in Brighton.


Ok back on subject. You said that if we move in bow then our front knee is exposed. I compleetly agree, but do you think we are not aware of this Also there is a lot more stances than just bow.

The sprawl is a great technique and work well, If you uses the stance correctly there is something that looks quiet similiar to the sprawl


As for using tiger claw. yes I would use, I cannot use at high level internall. But I can use it for gripping, pinching, Fish hooking, eye gouging. Various parts of the flesh. This can be a pretty good counter in some instances.

As for me taking ona wrestler, not a chance...........I have seen WWE and they are big boys, I far more an armchair warrior than a fighter.


Yes I agree that Chuck liddel is a great fighter and has great flow, but would fight him. Comparing him to your average day martial artists is comparing ..................I dont know but you get the idea


Just as quick side line to put the shoot in another context. Is that if someone went to use the shoot against knife exponent. The knife exponent would allow the shoot to come in and then just start slashing at the back of the neck and vertbrae, this could lead to some pretty bad damage..


Again look at the people who get drunk and watch UFC they see a top athlete doing the shoot and then decide to try it in a drunken fight. Well I leave the rest to your imagination


Mark

[Antonius]

Hey Paul.

Nice discussion developing here.

Glad to hear that your student is okay, but I'm fascinated that you aren't sure if you "buy the Chi blockage bit." I'm not criticizing you. I'm just fascinated. As a graduate student in acupuncture and Chinese medicine, I sometimes forget that not everyone believes in such things. When everyone around you (including medical doctors) makes their living off of chi, you can lose perspective.

I acknowledge that you may have no experience of such things, but I assure you that countless people do. Acupuncturists deal with them on a daily basis. Not all chi blockages are caused by internal power, and not all are severe. But they are quite real, and have been discussed in detail for thousands of years.

A blockage from an internal strike can be severe, even life-threatening. That is the only reason I mentioned anything. I have seen, felt, and delivered chi blockages of varying severity, so it is certainly something within my experience. You can read some of thmy experiences here: http://shaolin.org/discussion/internal-force02.html

As for mobility -- I didn''t mean to be disingenuous. I assumed that we were talking about speed in relation to combat, not speed over a distance. I don't really see the relevance of, say, running 50 meters quickly. If you have that much distance, why not just run away?

From my perspective, movement and evasion are intimately connected. By evasion, we may or may not be thinking of the same thing. You may (or may not) be thinking about evading by moving in angles. With proper stances, you can evade without even moving your feet, or by moving only one foot. Is this not a form of mobility?

Of course, if you need to move both feet, you can do so quickly. My articles and videos probably show this better. Also, I've been meaning to shoot a footwork and movement video, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Actually, I'm not sure a video will solve anything. Experience is the best teacher. Many of the things we are talking about here only come alive in person. Looking at videos, people can easily say, "that looks slow." But it's much harder to say that in person when the "slow" one is arriving earlier time and again.

What about Simon's offer to meet up? That might be the best way to share theories. You sound like a reasonable, respectful gentleman, and I'm guessing that such a meeting would be mutually beneficial.

Just don't hit him too hard, okay. We need him.

Best regards,

[George]

can you run as fast over 5 metres at a lower height than at a normal height?

Sifu Anthony is probably right about this being a misdirected line of thought, but I just couldn't resist.

If by 'run' you mean move from fighting stance to fighting stance covering 5 meters, then yes. I can cover about 4 meters in a single arrow step and I could easily add another meter with a smaller one on the end. My arrow steps are still a little clumsy, but they are still quite fast (a credit to the art rather than to any ability on my part.)

If, however, by 'run' you mean 'run as fast as you can without paying any attention to exposing yourself (e.g. to the opponent, or terrain,) strategy or what stance you end up at the end', then it would definitely be a rather worthless conversation.

And just as I was thinking about arrow steps this afternoon, I came across this rather wonderful picture. Funny how things work out.

[Kaitain]

ok - few people to reply to

Mark - I do actually travel to Edinburgh on business a few times a year so it isnt completely unfeasible to catch up with one another, I'll PM you.

My point regarding Tiger Claw is not that it is ineffective, but that it is not going to be effective without basic positional awareness and understanding of ground-fighting. i.e. being mounted it is more important to escape the position than to try disabling the opponent from that kind of position (for the reasons I laid out before). As I already stated - in taijiquan there is an energy (one of the 8 gates of taijiquan) called Kai (pluck) that is related to skin, flesh and muscle tearing. It's definitely useful when ground-fighting - I just hold the opinion that it is icing on the cake of basic positional awareness and technique on the ground. I know it works because of the pain my teacher puts me through - having someone's thumb going underneath your bicep is really quite horrible

I mentioned Chuck Lidell to show people one of the best fighters in the world at not being taken down, and at getting up very quickly if he does. His sprawl is awesome and I hold it up as the best example of takedown defence I've ever seen.

Regarding an armed defender - yes weapons change everything very quickly. Generally speaking, someone who knows what they are doing with a knife will beat an unarmed fighter (even a skilled one). Interestingly, Kali guys do a fair bit of groundwork with knives, so they are a good place to look for weapon work in ground-fighting. I ought to reiterate - I am not an exponent of going to the ground or clinching if I can avoid it, but they are available to me as necessary. I've been fortunate that the few 'real' encounters I have had in my life were all unarmed bar one (and that one was a bit of pipe - nothing sharp - fortunately I talked the situation down and so didnt have to test myself against a length of pipe - phew), Ive never been confronted with a knife.

I also take your point that the likelihood of a skilled grappler going for you in a fight is minimal - even less likely than finding a skilled striker. However, all of us train to face that kind of opponent so that when the unskilled take a swing at us we can hopefully deal with it quickly and painlessly (for us). That's the plan anyway. My experience is that adrenalin dumps strip an awful lot of skill away unless you have the requisite strategies in place - The Fence etc

Antonius - that's the key though, it's a belief thing. Acupuncture works - I have felt it. TCM works, I've used it. I don't think either of those have a belief component. Chi of the mystical variety isn't something I've experienced, therefore I dont invest myself in it. I guess Im chi agnostic Don't get me wrong - I use QiGong and NeiGong in my daily practice and I've had strange physical symptoms. I just rationalise them in a different way - core muscle development/relaxation. I teach in a very clear way - I talk about vectors and alignment and structure. I find that chi is a personal thing and I dont discuss it in class - if students ask about it, I tell them that I have seen nothing in my training that justifies a change in my terminology. "What would you prefer - that I tell you that you push from the floor and use your whole body to increase the force coming through you until it exits from your fist? Or shall I say focus on getting your chi into your hand?". Anyway - Im not 'anti', it's just not within my personal teaching or understanding as a required element. I can appreciate that your experiences differ to mine - I have seen a lot of things that are weird, but none of them have worked on me. I guess Im not sensitive enough It's also worth noting that I use a lot of Ericksonian hypnosis so a lot of what other people label mystical, I can reproduce hypnotically. That is not to suggest your experiences are hypnotic.

Regarding mobility - I was speaking specifically in terms of movement over distance, rotational movement etc In basic mechanical terms, you cannot move in a circle around a point (like a planted foot) in a wide stance as fast as in a narrow one. This is easily proved - stand with your feet close together in a high stance and pivot on one foot to face the other way, now do it in a wide deep stance - the foot has to travel a lot further. Given the way I fight, this mobility is critical - in the video there's some basic application but a lot of what I do is predicated on moving around a point - e.g. If I connect with my right arm on an outside line, I will pivot around that arm to get in to the opponent. Another point is the availability of the body's weapons - in a wide deep stance my rear leg and hand are a long way from their targets which doesnt work for my method of fighting. I completely appreciate that your fighting method is obviously going to predicated on the stances you work from. My fighting method is predicated on the skills that are developed within Yang taijiquan - deception, softness, structure, power. Those work best as a collective whole from a high stance, but a high stance is only any good if it has a lot of deep stance training behind it - the pelvis and hips need to be open and mobile, which only comes from deep stance work.

So to clarify - Im not criticising your methods, just explaining mine I suggest that if I was using your system, then your stances and so on would make perfect sense.

George - I think Antonio and I made the cardinal internet sin of not defining our terms before we started It's sorted now I hope.

Cheers

Paul

[Darryl]

Dear Paul,

I've really enjoyed reading your posts. Even though we may disagree on a variety of points, it is very clear that you treat Taijiquan as a martial art and are serious about your training.

The Grandmaster of our school, Sifu Wong Kiew Kit, will be teaching a Taijiquan course during the UK Summer Camp in July 2006. As you are already practicing Taijiquan (yet have still to confirm some of the Internal aspects to yourself), I'm sure that you would get a great deal from this course. If you didn't - no problem, check out the money back guarantee .