Speed in sparring?

[chris3212]

Dear Shaolin Wahnam members,

I have seen a few videos on Sifu Wongs site of students free sparring and I was wondering if sparring is taken leisurely or wether thats as fast as the students spar? In my style of lung fu the sparring is very fast. The reason I ask is to wonder, if its taken at a slower place, a Shaolin Wahnam exponent could spar alot faster?

Thank you for your time and best wishes to you all,

Chris

[joko]

I still have a very very limited experience in sparring. As a matter of fact, the sparring session in our Intensive TJQ Course in January was my only experience of sparring. Still, I would like to say something in this interesting thread.

After returning from the course, I still yet to find a sparring partner. So for the purpose of sparring, I have to practice only combat sequences 1-9 and the combat sets 1,2,3. (I have not yet practiced the 4th set, I will do it later). While practicing, I imagine I have an imaginary partner. In my mind I could see where he was standing in his ready stance, and when I initiated with this, my partner responded with this, and then countered with that, then I continued with this,.... etc. I noticed also the position of my 'partner' in relation with my position, and the speed of his movement, so that I could practice spacing and timing.

In the beginning, I did practice slowly, and so was my 'partner'.
After a while, I noticed that I am able to vary the speed of my 'sparring' session! For instance, the speed of my defence would adjust to the speed of my imaginary attacking partner.

Not only that, I can vary also the speed of my other practice of Taijiquan sets that previously I practiced, without losing the other aspects such as flowing, continuity, yin-yang, etc. And even I began to imagine and feel the purpose of each pattern in the other Taijiquan sets, and began to feel the presence of my 'partner'

So the conclusion is: with proper training, the speed will come naturally when needed. It depends also on the skill and experiences of the practitioner. The most important one is: you know what you are doing!

I wish I would have the opportunity to have a sparring session with a real partner.

Joko

[chris3212]

Dear Joko,

Thank you for that interesting post, I have managed to discover much of what you have for myself in the same way. Shadow sparring, in my opinion, is a valuable part of our training but it is no substitute for real sparring. So although you may be able to practice shadow sparring, you will find sparring with a partner much more difficult. There are many factors like reading body movement, finding rythmns, physical contact etc. Eventually finding these becomes second nature, and eventually you may be able to disregard them all together.

Thank you Joko, best wishes,

Chris

[Grimlock]

Hi Chris,

Having spent a number of years practicing external styles, I understand what you're saying, and while I agree with you that there is no substitute for a real partner, sparring with an imaginary partner the way we do in Wahnam (and probably other genuine internal schools) and shadow sparring (at least the way I used to) are very different.

When I used to shadow spar, it was about working on techniques and putting together combos. I would throw in an occasional block. When I spar with an imaginary partner, I am conditioning how I respond to different situations. I remember how it feels to execute the pattern against an opponent as well as how their response feels. I am able to practice my control so that I can stop my strikes just short of hitting my opponent if I choose. It may seem like a fine difference, but the difference is immense.

I am very much a beginner. This is a fact and not said out of humility. Because of my situation, I am only able to visit my sifu for lessons every 2-3 months, and I have no training partner at home. I am also in the pretty early stages of the sparring methodology. But during my last lessons, when the speed was picked up a bit and we worked a little more variability into the sequences, I found myself reacting (correctly) automatically, without needing to think.

This is again different from when I practiced previous styles and I would sometimes execute a response before I realized it. Here, I am aware of and have total control of what I am doing at all times, and I have already gotten to a much deeper level of countering than in previous styles. When I say I do not need to think, it is the same way that I do not need to think about exactly how I walk, I just walk. If I walk to the park, I don't need to think about my exact route or what I pass, I just walk to the park and am aware of everything around me the entire time. If something is in my way, I can change course and walk around it automatically without thinking about it.

The equivalent to this analogy in my previous practice would be like getting up to walk somewhere and either concentrating on every part of every step or occasionally suddenly being somewhere and not remembering walking there.

I don't know anything about the way you spar or shadow spar, so I hope you don't take this as a my way is better than your way argument. I'm just throwing out my experience as a way to suggest that there may be more to the way we shadow spar than you think.

As far as speed goes, I have had small experiences of speed manifesting itself in my practice. When going through combat sequences, I sometimes speed up a great deal without really meaning to. The sequences come to life and I am just going with the flow. As I get better, I will be able to better go with the flow of any opponent or life itself at whatever speed it might require.


I'm looking forward to see where this discussion goes.
Chris

[Antonius]

Dear Chris3212,

Thanks for starting this thread. I think it will be interesting for many people.

Before I begin to answer your questons, may I ask about your style of kung fu? You mention that your sparring is very fast. How do you spar? Do you spar with padding? Do you use the same techniques in sparring that you do when practicing your forms?

Thanks!

[chris3212]

Dear Sifu Anthony,

We use light sparring gloves on occasion but no pads. Our instructor very much stresses the point of control so the gloves are rarely brought out in a lesson. As for using our techniques which are in forms, the answer is yes. The sparring is fast as thats how people tend to fight on the street.

It may well be that I have missed the sparring videos where Shaolin Wahnam exponents spar fast, but I was wondering how fast a Shaolin exponent can spar.

Best wishes,

Chris

[chris3212]

Dear Grimlock,

thank you for your reply. I believe that Shaolin Wahnam is a more advanced art than my current "style/method" and hopefully one day I will be able to join a Shaolin Wahnam class. Countering isnt something I struggle with, to be honest I stuggle with a "second counter" on my part.

Thank you Grimlock, best wishes,

Chris

[Antonius]

Dear Chris,

Thanks for the answers. But you didn't really explain whether or not you spar using traditional Kung Fu patterns. The fact that you use gloves makes me guess that you do not. What style of Kung Fu do you practice?

Apparent Speed

There is a big difference in the apparent speed of styles like Boxing and the speed used in genuine Kung Fu. I say "apparent" because it just looks faster. When you snap back your punches and kicks, they give the appearance of greater speed. Sometimes, this is true. A Boxing jab is a good example. It looks fast, and it is fast.

In Kung Fu, we don't generally snap back our punches. This makes the techniques look a bit slower. They may appear slow, but they are not as slow as they look.

Tactical Speed

Speed is a crucial factor in combat, but what matters is tactical speed, not apparent speed. What is tactical speed? It's the speed that the technique arrives on target.

For example, a front-leg snapping roundhouse kick to the head looks very fast and flashy. Some people even call it the kicking equivalent to a jab. For a high kick, it is fast. But compared to a punch, it is tactically slow. Even if you compare it to a low kick, it is still tactically slow.

When you practice high-level techniques, you practice tactical speed. For example, the pattern "False Leg Hand Sweep" is not particularly fast, but it is tactically fast. It looks like a defense, but it is an attack -- to the striking limb of your opponent. It lands just as the opponent expects his own strike to land.

Techniques that employ "no defense, direct counter" are tactically fast even if they appear to be slow. The kick "Happy Bird Hops up Branch", for example, is much slower than the punch "Fierce Tiger Crosses Valley." But when you use Happy Bird as a direct counter (Sequence 9), it is tactically faster than the Fierce Tiger.

Mental Speed

There is also another kind of speed -- the speed of the mind. In external arts, they tend to call this reaction speed. In Shaolin Kung Fu, it is more than that. For example, I find that I can often predict an opponent's move. This makes me faster even if I don't move any faster.

In Shaolin Kung Fu, we train mind, not just physical reactions. It is a form of Zen meditation. Zen meditation was so effective in combat that the Samurai warriors adopted it as their own, even though they were not particularly interested in Buddhism. It gave them the mindset to effectively face a razor-sharp sword capable of slicing their torso in half.

Skill, Safety, and Gloves, and Skill

In the early stages of our sparring methodology, we don't tend to emphasize speed. Adding speed too soon can be detrimental to the development of basic skills. For example, when sparring with my students, if I go as fast as I am capable, they will not learn. Instead, they will just be frustrated.

Going too fast is also unsafe. When you have padding, it's okay. But when you are dealing with Snake strikes to the eyes and No Shadow kicks to the groin, you must have excellent control before adding a lot of speed.

Once you have the underlying skills, adding speed is quite easy, both in terms of applying it and responding to it. When I spar with Boxers or Karateka, I don't feel slow. If anything, I feel like I am controlling my speed for the sake of friendly sparring.

I hope that answers some of your questions. Perhaps you could help to answer some of mine regarding your own sparring. Or perhaps you could provide a video that shows what you recognize to be speedy sparring.

Best,

[chris3212]

Dear SIfu Anthony,

Thank you for your excellent answer. I am currently studying Teh Ji Han Jeung Dao which is a mordern style. It wouldnt be classed as traditional kung fu. We do use some kung fu patterns but we also use Muay Thai and other techniques. It is (at least at the level I am at at the moment) a completely external style.

Your point about "snapping back" the strikes is a very good point and is probably the reason I thought it was a little slow.

We do use groin strikes and strikes for the eyes and throat but we work on control.

Im still very tired so if I have missed any questions I apologise.

Thank you Sifu Anthony,

Chris

[Simon]

Nice thread Chris.
Good answers Siheng Anthony.

I also feel that in keeping a bridge, using good stances and traditional patterns Shaolin Wahnam kung fu allows for a lot of control of your opponent and forces a different understand of speed (as Anthony mentioned).
If you imagine somebody working a speed ball they're very fast.
If two fighters just batter each other with simple punchs and kicks, accepting that they will 'take a bit of punishment', they may be quite fast. But as soon as the more traditional patterns are used it takes time for each fighter to counter the counter before once again attacking.
For example if I punch with a 'black tiger' my opponent may counter with 'dark dragon draws water' striking toward my floating ribs/kidneys. Because of the effectiveness of a 'dark dragon' I can't simply ignore it. His hand pins my right arm across my chest twisting my shoulders to the left and his front knee tries to clapse my stance by pressing into the back of my front leg. Not only am I tied up but he is also going to strike me. I'm now forced to counter this attack before going for my next strike. By sinking down into a horse stance and bringing my left hand over his arms I can escape. I can then attack with 'white snake', left hand to his throat/eyes.

Instead of 'hit, hit, hit', we have 'hit, counter, hit'. Hence the ripid blows slow down. The same effect is produced by 'pressing' an opponent. Good control of him means that we control speed and flow of the fight.

That's me done for now. No doubt Siheng Anthony will sum up what I'm saying perfectly in a sentence...I'll wait and see.

Cheers

Simon

[Darryl]

Do we move fast? Only when we need to

Dear Chris,

Echoing Anthony Sihing, a common saying within my classes is "Never confuse speed for technique".

Following on from Anthony's comments regarding Tactical Speed and Simon's regarding controlling the speed of our partner, I'd like to use a video clip from last years UK Summer Camp. The video clip can be found here . 4 seconds into the clip, I use a counter that you can see being taught here at a previous Warrior Project. It may take a couple of views to see it, because it's fast. It's easier to spot by the fact that it completely stops the boxer (who's name I have since forgotten - my apologies whomever you are ), forcing him to start again. Throughout that exchange, he is moving faster than I am because I am already moving fast enough to stop his attacks. If he had sped up even more, I may have moved even slower. Now the crunch - my partner in that drill had never attended any of the Warrior Projects, he was attacking me in a spontaneous manner and I was still able to use a prescribed response. How? training.

Later on in the same clip (22-25 seconds), we see Jamie (Scottish Assistant Instructor) using the same defence. Since his partner is coming in much slower, he uses the opportunity to also use the pattern Lohan Asks The Way. This touches on Anthony's third point, about Mind and opportunities.

[Tim]

Excellent answers from both all,

Speed is indeed an interesting concept. When I first started training in Martial Arts I was skinny with little or no muscle, I was naturally fast but not very powerful. Then I started weight training, got bigger and more powerful but lost some of my speed. They (who ever they are?) say it is natural to slow down as you get older. Probably one reason why you don't see many pro boxers in their late 30's and 40's.

Even the great Ali slowed down in his latter years but used his vast knowledge and skill of spacing and timing to win his battles. But even he was beaten by younger people as time went on.

But as time has gone on for me and I move towards my mid 30's I am finding that through Shaolin Wahnam training that I am actually becoming faster. I often purposely slow down to demonstrate moves and techniques otherwise they simply become lost in a blur of movement. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I am the King of lightening speed, far from it. But I have noticed that real speed is no longer the most important issue.

There is a Shaolin axiom that says,
"strength cannot match techniques,
techniques cannot match force,
force cannot match speed,
speed cannot match the marvelous".

It means that if you can only apply techniques skillfully, you can defeat an opponent who depends only on his mechanical strength.

The second part means that even if you know a lot of techniques and are skillful at applying then you are still likely to beaten if you meet an opponent with tremendous internal force.

The third means if you are fast enough to avoid the opponents strikes and force and able to strike back decisively then you are a better combatant. Even if you don't have tremendous internal force but are able to strike his vital points you will be able to put him out of action.

So should we then forget about force and techniques and merely focus on our speed then? No, mere speed, like mere force is not enough to clinch victory. Speed is not the highest factor in combat. The 4th part of the axiom states that speed cannot be matched by the marvelous. By 'marvelous' it is meant that the response is so superb, usually with an element of surprise, that the opponent himself cannot help marveling with awe and admiration at it, although this response may be quite natural to the master. The marvelous response gives a sense of being "just right" in all aspects.

This is something that I have experience with both Sifu Wong on intensive courses ( http://www.shaolin.org/general/kf-course.html ) and also with Sifu Kai on Warrior training weekends
( http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthr...3787#post33787 )

If you would like to experience the "marvelous" first hand instead of just reading it about it then don't miss Sifu's summer camp
(http://www.shaolinwahnam.co.uk/scotl...rcamp_2006.htm)

Sifu Tim Franklin

https://www.shaolinwahnam.co.uk/england

[George]

the boxer (who's name I have since forgotten - my apologies whomever you are )

Ed.

[MoMoJuice]

Nice thread, thnx to everyone who participated

I found Siheng Anthony's post to be very informative, great post.

Respectfully,
MoMo.

[chris3212]

Dear everyone,

Thank you for putting time into this thread. It has been very imformative. Short post as in a rush.

Many thanks and best wishes,

Chris