Internal force too big a responsibility?

[grammatoncleric]

Hi,

I was reading Sihing Robin's thread, I couldn't help but thinking internal force seems like it an be a serious responsibility to make sure your oponent doesn't have any serious lasting damage.

As well as that thread, I recall Alex Kozma writing about Master Chen Yun San, demonstrating the soft hand of Tai Chi, he gently brushed his chest and released energy. Unfortunately it stayed in Alex and during the night he literally thought he was going to die, he went back to see his master who was very apologetic and taught him the way to release it.

I also recalled a friend of mine who is training in Yi Quan and his instructor demonstrating a correct alignment in striking, he hit him and he said it felt like something caving in his chest, he seemed fine after that, but then said he began to get chest pains at home. Luckily he knew Chi Kung and was able to release it, he went back to see his intructor who was very apologetic.

I understand that external strikes can lead to death a few days later from internal rupture, but internal force strikes seem much more severe in their damage.

How would you ensure that your opponent doesn't encounter serious problems, and what if they are unwilling to learn chi kung to release it?

I recall hearing a story of a past kung fu master who struck someone who attacked them, and afterwards begged them to learn chi kung they refused, and died quickly after.

[George]

How would you ensure that your opponent doesn't encounter serious problems, and what if they are unwilling to learn chi kung to release it?

Easy! Just don't hit them.

There is so much more to internal force than hitting people. You could smile at them instead.

[joko]

I was reading Sihing Robin's thread, I couldn't help but thinking internal force seems like it an be a serious responsibility to make sure your oponent doesn't have any serious lasting damage.

Now we see why the first requirement to learn directly from Sifu Wong is to abide the Ten Shaolin Laws:

Learning high level art brings great responsibility.

Dear grammatoncleric,

When one has acquired the internal force and knows how to use it, certainly he knows how to apply it properly; not to cause serious injury is just one of those skills.

Regarding how, it is similar to the question: how do you feel and lead your chi?

Joko

[shaolin_mike]

Easy! Just don't hit them.

There is so much more to internal force than hitting people. You could smile at them instead.

Ah but then what if you enter a martial arts tournament?

Good question from grammatoncleric Im interested in the answer too.

[George]

Ah but then what if you enter a martial arts tournament?

I recently asked the same question on the forum and I found this reply from Sifu Anthony to be most helpful:

http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36516&postcount=52

This is very much the conclusion I have reached myself, after thinking about this for some time: if you have lots of force then use less dangerous techniques and if that is not enough, then stay away from competitions.

Safety first.

[chris3212]

How much internal force should one use to protect their life?

[Maxime]

Enough

[dkwok]

Thank you for starting a great thread, grammatoncleric!!

I also had the same concern. I understand from a few sihing's replies that one is able to control how much force one can inflict, but I also remember a few postings in this forum where our brother/sister received a blow (more like a touch) that was unintentional, but still suffered as a consequence:

http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38322&postcount=53

During the Intensive Course in January, while practicing a combat set with Robin, his punch got thru but he pulled back, only barely touching my abdominal region. I felt a little "wave" go in, and for a few hours after that I didn't feel well and was nauseous. I didn't get better until the end of the practice session when we did some Chi flow, but still didn't feel "right" until the next day.

I think I have drawn the conclusion that a beginner with internal force will have to use intention before they can inflict injury, whereas those at the master level are the ones who will need to be more careful, as they can cause energy disruption even in a friendly sparring. This conclusion is based on what I've read in this forum.

I think because of the above example, it should be a good enough reason to reinforce us to be more responsible with how we use internal force either for actual combat or competition, which is what the seniors had been advocating all along. So it is a responsibility. But I don' t think it is such a big responsibility that it is too big for us to bear. Remember we also learned compassion and other great virtues which are the other components of this great art.

David

[Antonius]

Hey David.

I tend to agree with you. That's why I'm not terribly worried about Robin. We've never met, and I'm sure he's powerful, but honestly, I think sihing Kai is in a different category, along with a few of my other seniors. One of them (who shall remain nameless) is incredibly powerful, but doesn't know how powerful he is. He would never compete, but if he did, I think he could really hurt someone.

I think that part of the problem is that, as you get more and more powerful, you feel more and more empty. Over the years, you also get used to the feeling of energy in your body. After a while, you don't feel as much any more, so you forget.

Maybe this would explain why high-level masters never feel the need to prove their skills in competition. What would they prove?

Best,

[grammatoncleric]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

It is clear that having real internal force is a big responsiblity, however Sifu (and any good master) is very careful to balance that with teaching compassion even towards someone intent on seriously hurting you.

Imagine if you were in bed with a loved one, and began fighting in your sleep! It was my internal force officer, I swear!

[Baguamonk1]

Don't worry, to get to the level where you can kill someone with fajing will take a long time..and much more than just chi gong.

[Andrew]

Again, Baguamonk1, our opinions differ. Whether or not it takes a long time to acquire such internal force is dependent on several factors --- and Chi Kung is a very large part of developing this force.

Andrew

[Baguamonk1]

I agree. But it is not the end-all be all to fajing. Neither is fajing itself, many great boxers appear to have "amazing fajing" but they don't see it the way we do, strip the mysticism, the invincibility of the method, and you've got some very similar things.

This is the kind of attitude that makes other arts, or people who actually fight (such as MMA) look down on CMA. Because many of us seem to think our "internal force" is t3h D3@dly, and such a huge responsibiliy. It is an unrealistic view of the practicality of fajing, and internal "powah." I would love to see any of you, including me, fight someone such as Fedor and attempt to use our awesome internal "force" to drop him on the spot.

All I'm saying, is you probably shouldn't be to worried about it

[Andrew]

Internal force (quantity) is one component in fajing as I understand it. Your (and others') understanding may well be quite different. That's fine.

Internal force is not ONLY for fajing. Its uses and usefullness are quite diverse. We know from practical experience that internal force can cause damage. It is only responsible of us, therefore, to concern ourselves with this.

This discussion was not initiated to convince you of anything regarding internal force. You have your views and you are most welcome to keep them. Our own views differ. I do, however, consider it irresponsible of you to try and offer advice to our students on an aspect of our training of which you have no personal experience.

Andrew

[Ronan]

I agree with you, a lot of people talk a lot of non sense and most of the time they don't even train.

Because many of us seem to think our "internal force" is t3h D3@dly, and such a huge responsibiliy.

I don't think my internal force is that deadly, not yet anyway and I know there are plenty of external styalists out there that have much more force than me, but it's just a different kind of force. And I'm not planning to start banging on Fedor's door any time soon

You have your opinion and I have mine, and in my opinion, body mechanics is not the same as Internal force. Ofcourse we still use body mechanics, but it's not imperative for the application of internal force.

It is an unrealistic view of the practicality of fajing

In your opinion. It's unrealistic to you but not to me or anyone else that's taken a nasty blow from someone with good force. I've been hit and hurt by both methods, body mecanics (using weight, leverage, positioning) and internal force (bang!) and I know which one I would prefer to take again if I had to. So in my opinion, it's not good to be wreckless. Actually I don't think it's good to take too many hits regardless of who's dishing them out.

would love to see any of you, including me, fight someone such as Fedor and attempt to use our awesome internal "force" to drop him on the spot.

If you actually had "awesome" internal force then yeah, I'd love to see that too! but just because someone cultivates internal force, doesn't intantly make them awesomely powerfull. It takes many years, a lot of hard work, good understanding and great teaching to develope the kind of force needed to drop a beast like Fedor in his tracks. Equally so, it took him many years and hard work to develope the skills and power that he has. I'm not saying it's more powerfull, it's just different.

I agree with Andrew though, if you havn't experienced a seemingly gentle but peircing strike, loaded with internal force that can make you feel sick and painfull for weeks after (and from what you've said I'm guessing you havn't) then you're in no position of authority to comment on it. No disrespect intended. I havn't been to dallas (although I've heard about it) so I wouldn't like to start telling others whether it's safe to walk down the street there late at night or not. It'd be irresponsible of me.

Again, I'm not saying we're the all powerfull internal force gods, but we do train a different kind of force from lifting weights and hitting pads and it's not all about body mecanics.
Best wishes

Ronan