A Discussion on Yielding

[Antonius]

Dear Sidai Nicky,

As I said, I think that many people can benefit from a clear and open discussion about yielding. Your last explanation clarified many things for me. I thank you for that. To me, your previous explanation was obtuse and impenetrable. The recent explanation was clear and direct. The difference between the two is like day and night.

Imagine if, instead of saying "Stand upright and relaxed," Sifu said, "Reach toward Heaven with The Hundred Meetings and Let What Is Be." That would be obtuse. Similarly, when Sifu talks about yielding, he is characteristically Zen, i.e. simple, direct, and effective.

Words are extremely limited, but we must do our best. A topic like yielding is tricky. I think most of us appreciate that words alone can never fully capture the concept of yielding. But if we are going to use words, then I think we must make efforts to be as clear as possible, just as our Sifu did in his books and continues to do on his website.

Best regards,

[Marcus]

Hello everyone,

Apologies for my absence during the last few days, I have been involved in delicate negotiations in the selling of my house and the purchase of a new one.

I aim to continue with the main theme of this thread, that of increasing everyone's understanding of the concept of Yielding in all of it's many applications.

Here is my plan for the next few weeks:

• Provide pictures, videos and concise descriptions in an attempt to clearly explain all of the techniques and applications I have written about so far.
• Explore the use of Yielding against other forms of attack (so far the focus has been mainly on hand attacks).
• Lead the discussion into an exploration of the similarities and differences of Yielding as expressed in Tai Chi Chuan and Shaolin Kung Fu.

I am currently sourcing suitable photographs and videos to achieve this plan and will post more in the next few days. Thankyou for your patience. It will be worth it.

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Nicky]

Dear Siheng Anthony,

I am glad that the post cleared things up for you.

Anthony quoted:
"Words are extremely limited, but we must do our best. A topic like yielding is tricky. I think most of us appreciate that words alone can never fully capture the concept of yielding. But if we are going to use words, then I think we must make efforts to be as clear as possible, just as our Sifu did in his books and continues to do on his website."

I quite agree with you.

Best wishes,

Nicky

[Nicky]

Dear Siheng Marcus,

Quoted by Marcus:
Here is my plan for the next few weeks:
Provide pictures, videos and concise descriptions in an attempt to clearly explain all of the techniques and applications I have written about so far.
Explore the use of Yielding against other forms of attack (so far the focus has been mainly on hand attacks).
Lead the discussion into an exploration of the similarities and differences of Yielding as expressed in Tai Chi Chuan and Shaolin Kung Fu.

I look forward to the development of this thread.

Good luck with your move,

Nicky

[steve]

Hi Anthony

Sorry I thought I did give fair amount of explanation to support what I was saying.

I'll give another example. (simplified... meaning other variables could happen aswell)
Slow motion: Attacker reaches for your chest to push you back. With good timing you blend with his motion and you move your chest just out of his reach until his arm has reached it's end. At that point he's neutralised. Keeping your connection you can counter attack. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be the principle of yielding that most of you are saying.

Lets see if I can explain what I'm saying
Attacker reaches for your chest to push you back. In this scenario, without moving, you soften your chest on contact. The attacker will want to apply his force, but is unable to get a solid "footing"/ hold on the chest. The chest is right there, but the attacker is unable to apply his pressure. The attacker will almost get something to push on, but at last moment it dissolves, disrupting the attackers balance.

How do you soften the chest? When the hand comes to your chest, mentally you don't meet it. When the hand touches your chest, allow that area of your chest to melt. Any force that comes in from the attack sinks down to the tantien and to the ground, like water on a ducks back. The attack/force would slide off it's point of attack, even if it doesn't physically move.
The more the attacker is able to sink while pushing, the more your body needs to soften all the way through the legs in order to yield, especially in this case where you are yielding on the spot, not changing posture.

Try this? Put your hand on your chest and stroke downwards to your stomach, repeat. As your hand touches your chest, push your chest out and make it substantial, and continue to stroke down. Repeat, each time sticking your chest out on first contact. That would be meeting the attack... not yielding!
Now, do the same stroking, but this time do the opposite with the chest, let the chest drop and soften. Repeat, until you get a feeling of no resistance by the chest.

Do the same with other areas of your body, your shoulder from the side, by letting it drop on contact. Once you feel your body softening/yielding in those specific areas, then make sure that the pelvis softens with the specific area. Then check that the legs are also softening in agreement with eg the chest.

When you start getting a feel for this way of yielding, get a friend to push you in a helpful way. His hand pushing on your eg chest would potentially want to slip down, so with the slightest poor quality yielding his hand would slip down. As you become more proficient he can push more directly. Once you have achieved that, then you allow yourself to get pushed to your back leg, he sinks his weight into to you to dislodge you, without changing your stance you soften into that back leg until you feel no weight bearing on you. At first it feels totally impossible, at first you lose your stance, then later you manage to take yourself right onto your yangchuan (point under foot), it seems to bring unbearable pressure onto your back leg. But that's because there's still resistance, your muscle is still holding on. In time the muscle will let go and the sinew will take over. This would be the starting level of yielding.

[George]

Steve,

I'm afraid I agree with Sifu Anthony on your previous explanations. Your latest attempt, however, is much better in this respect.

If I understand your explanation correctly (and I still had to read through it about four times to get this far ) then the concept you are describing is similar to what I learned in the Systema classes I attended a few years ago.

There an incoming strike (hand, knife etc.) would be "absorbed" by that part of the body which would "melt" under the attack. The rest of the body remains in position, or even uses the incoming attack as a source of a counter (e.g. strike to the right shoulder leads to an attack with the left hand.) Of course, this is a very external manifestation, which is understandable - the system was designed to be taught to soldiers in a very short period of time (6 months,) which is (in my very limited knowledge) not enough time to develop internal skills.

Is this what you mean?

[Marcus]

Push

Hello everyone,

Way back in post #1 I quoted the following paragraph written by Sifu Stier:

'If they choose to charge forward...let them do so, and pull them face first into the wall or some other unmoving, solid object'.

I replied with this “alternative” approach to responding to a rushing or pushing attack:

As the opponent pushes, first neutralize (or yield) to his push, then redirecting his momentum throw him onto the ground with 'Carry Tiger Back to Mountain' (called 'Felling Tree with Roots' in Shaolin Kungfu.)

I’d like to thank Simon Brooks and Mark Tranter for kindly agreeing to taking these photo’s at short notice (yesterday!) in order to demonstrate the principle.

Picture 1: Mark (on the right) is pushing Simon (on the left).

Picture 2: Simon Yields to Marks push by transferring his weight without moving his feet and uses his right arm to redirect Marks pushing momentum.

Picture 3: Simon reaches his right arm across Marks Shoulders.

Picture 4: Simon throws Mark to the floor using Carry Tiger back to Mountain (or Felling Tree at Roots in Shaolin Kung Fu).

In the next few days I will post a picture series that I believe is a safer and more effective counter to being pulled than this one originally posted by Sifu Stier:

If they choose to pull you...let them do so, and push them backward to stumble over some obstacle on the ground or into something solid.'.

Stay tuned….

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Sifu Stier]

Re: Your Photo Technique

A mostly double weighted defender, making what appears to be four weight transfers...i.e. forward to initially contact the pusher, backward to yield and neutralize, withdraw lead foot from inside the pusher's leg and reposition it outside his leg with a forward step, ending with another forward step to perform the takedown, at least three steps, and all on the assumption that the attacker will only succeed in making one forward step and one assault.

Wouldn't it be just perfect if we always had enough time and space to do all of that? And every assailant only took one step and threw only one punch? Unfortunately, in the real world where real fighting takes place, your hypothetical scenario adds up as: too many weight transfers + too many steps + nebulous stance and footwork + either too little time or space in which do these + too many dangerous assumptions = too slow to pull off against superior speed + too many potential vulnerabilities = doubtful outcome. Looks great on the drawing board, but not likely to succeed on the street or in the ring.

[Simon]

Hi Sifu Stier,

damn, someone spotted the changed foot position! It could have been worse, if Mark had stepped in with the other leg I would have had to switch stance completely for the throw. Which is why students of Wahnam first learn to come back to false leg before stepping forward again. Only later is the move done as a swallow.

I'm sure there are many other threads on the whole 'double weight' issue so I won't comment on that. I guess a yield would just be two weight shifts. If you ignore how I got into the first stance I do three shifts including the throw. This last shift for the throw could easily have been scrapped and replaced by a direct attack with a left mid punch or right attack to the throat.

As to your last comments, I'm sure you know the saying about force beats technique, speed beats force, nothing beats the marvellous (or something like that ). There is always room for the what if this, what if that. Let's not get bogged down in the 'yer but...'.

Personally my prefered move in this situation (two hand push) would be a White Crane Flaps Wings. One move!

Cheers

Simon

[Sifu Stier]

A Wing And A Prayer!

Dear Simon:

I always look at the legs and feet first! I agree with your preference for 'Pai Hao Liang Chih' as a one step response to the two handed frontal push. It's a quicker, safer, and thus usually more effective technique for that assault to be sure. When timed properly against a right foot forward assailant, the backward step of the defender's right foot leaves his lead left foot already outside the pusher's lead leg, where it can oftentimes sweep either advancing lead leg of the attacker without need of an extra step to get there, and the lowered left hand of the defender can simultaneously apply a countermeasure while the rising right hand neutralizes the push upward and outward away from the defense centerline...all in one movement. As Sifu Lee always said..."Is mo' better technique". And I'll bet that you perform it beautifully, Simon.

I also agree with you that in the technique shown in the photos, a simultaneous left handed lateral push or slap, or a left handed punch under the pusher's right arm, while neutralizing the push away from the defense centerline, is preferrable to taking an extra step to facilitate the takedown. Again, it's faster, safer, and likely therefore to be more effective. Thanks for your astute reply.

With warm regards ~

Sifu Stier

[Marcus]

The Mark of a Master

Thanks for your response, Sifu Stier

Perhaps you haven’t tried the technique shown in the picture. Please try it and tell us what happened.

It will be much appreciated if those who have used this technique in their training or in actual combat please give their honest comments. I understand Sifu teaches this technique in the intensive courses as well as the regional classes of both Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan and Shaolin Kungfu. So I hope those who have direct experience of this technique will contribute to this discussion.

We in Shaolin Wahnam speak from direct experience. I mention this technique because it has worked well for myself and my students. It has also worked well for my kungfu brothers and sisters.

In the pictures, as Mark pushes (Picture 1), following his momentum Simon yields (Picture 2), deflects (Picture 3) and counters (Picture 4), all in one smooth movement.

Fresh beginners would take 3 or more seconds to complete the technique. As they would be hesitant at first, and not able to do the technique in one movement, their training partners would have to co-operate and freeze their attack to allow the defenders to practice the counter.

After a few practice sessions, even for beginners they would be able to apply the counter in less than 3 seconds. They would do it in one continuous movement though the flow might not be smooth yet. At this intermediate stage, their training partners would still have to co-operate.

At the advanced stage of the training session, even for beginners they would be able to implement this technique in a second, which is about the time the attacker completes his initial attack and begins to recover from his initial move. At first the training partners still co-operate, but when the practitioners are quite skilful, co-operation is gradually withdrawn. Later the training partners will counter this counter. This is part of the systematic training in combat application in Shaolin Wahnam.

This technique brings to life the two famous kungfu principles which are of particular importance in Tai Chi Chuan, namely “Using the opponent’s momentum against himself” and “Starting later arriving earlier”.

In fact I intend to show the counter to this counter in a later post. These are not advanced techniques. They are in our basic combat training programme in both our Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan and Shaolin Kungfu. Those who attend the England Summer Camp (click here for details) in July this year will learn and practice this technique, and you can discover from your own direct experience that you can implement this technique successfully in one or two seconds.

But if you are too impatient to wait till the England Summer Camp or my explanation of the counter later on, you can search our websites for examples. There are quite a lot of them in pictures as well as video clips.

Here, we are talking about techniques. We need to differentiate between techniques and skills, a difference we often emphasize in Shaolin Wahnam though other schools may not pay much attention to the difference.

When we talk about how to apply a certain technique, we presume that the opponent is of an equal standard of skill, or even of a slightly higher skill level. But if the opponent is of a much higher skill level, the technique would not work – not that the technique is not applicable but that the opponent’s skill is superior.

For example, if I attempt to throw Sifu (Sifu Wong) using “Carrying Tiger Back to Mountain” (or “Uprooting Tree” in Shaolin Kungfu), I would find myself being thrown to the ground instead. In fact, this has happened many times. After students to his intensive courses or regional classes had learnt this technique well, he would ask one of them to try it on him, He asks them to “Really throw me.” and when the student expected to find Sifu on the ground, he found himself on the ground instead! It is an inspiring experience. It awes us to the beauty of Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan and Shaolin Kungfu. I invite anyone who has had such an experience to share it here with us.

Sifu can throw us even when we know what he is going to do. I remember him saying:

“This is the mark of a master. You may know what technique he is going to use, and you may also know its counter. Yet, he can still defeat you using that very technique.”

I will post the "PULL" picture series in a few days time.

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Antonius]

Now we're getting somewhere.

At the advanced stage of the training session, even for beginners they would be able to implement this technique in a second, which is about the time the attacker completes his initial attack and begins to recover from his initial move.

I just did some experimenting, and it seems that I can do the techique in less than a second. The technique actually begins during the opponent's attack, making it quite fast, tactically. See here for more on the subject of tactical speed.

Actually, back in my Karate days, we often used a crude version of this technique in sparring. Tactically, it was much slower. And yet even that technique worked amazingly well in full contact free sparring.

[Sifu Stier]

Supersonic Speed?

Greetings to all!

I am familiar with the technique shown, and have no objection to it per se, but only to the scenario in which it is applied. I seriously doubt that many people are capable of performing 3 or 4 steps with full weight shifts as shown in the 3 seconds time allowed for beginners...essentially the time it takes to quickly say "one thousand and one, one thousand and two, one thousand and three".

I am even more skeptical that anyone other than an experienced Master can realistically perform all of these actions effectively, and with good balance and body control, in 1 second or less...i.e. the time it takes to quickly say "one thousand and one"! Thus, unless the average defender possesses 'Supersonic Speed' that others do not, the scenario depicted will probably require too much time to apply. And so, I guess anything is possible, but some things remain highly improbable.

Regards ~

Sifu Stier

[Andrew]

Dear Sifu Stier,

I do not consider myself to be in the category of "an experienced Master" but am easily capable of performing this technique in less than a second. I remember learning this technique from Sifu at my first intensive Kung Fu course and also observing other students learning this technique at a later intensive Kung Fu course. Performing it in less than 3 seconds is indeed easily achievable even for "relative beginners".

I actually remember also doing some sparring with one of my Sihings (I won't mention him by name as he may or may not want to get involved) here in Switzerland. I certainly landed on the floor well within a second --- and am still grateful for that lesson from him.

Andrew

[George]

I seriously doubt that many people are capable of performing 3 or 4 steps with full weight shifts as shown in the 3 seconds time allowed for beginners...essentially the time it takes to quickly say "one thousand and one, one thousand and two, one thousand and three".

I am still a relative beginner and I can easily do the sequence in the photo in under 3 seconds - does that make me special?