Why is Taijiquan performed slowly?

[joko]

Dear all,

The above question, the title of this thread, was in my head on the first day I learned the Taijiquan forms some years ago. Perhaps this question is pondered too by other practitioners of Taichichuan, and by people who happen to see practitioners perform Taijiquan slowly.
Now I invite you all to have a discussion on learning and practicing Taijiquan.

Yesterday I went trough my old archive files in my computer hard-disk, accumulated there for some years. Some of the materials were those downloaded from the Internet. It was my habit not to save the file as html file, but as text file or word doc file, or in pdf. I found some writings, apparently taken from a book written by a Taichichuan master. (It is my intention to provide the link from where I downloaded the writings, but I could not retrieve the link).
The writings, in my opinion, represent the approach taken by most Taijiquan practitioners in learning Taijiquan, including those who are genuinely interested in learning and practicing Taijiquan seriously. That included my own perception when I read the writings some years ago. (Of course my perception has been changed since I learned from Sifu).

First, I will post the writings from my archive above in the following three consecutive separate posts, for the purpose of easier reference later. Please take a look at them, which will enable us to answer the above question:
- why most Taijiquan practitioners practice slowly.

Now, please take a look at the various Video-Clips Series uploaded in Grandmaster Wong websites on the Taijiquan Courses such as January 2007 Course in Costa Rica, as well as Shaolin Kung Fu Courses such as October 2006 Intensive Course in Malaysia.

From the video-clips Series, we have better understanding of
- the meaning of Taijiquan classics written by past masters
- the proper way and cost-effective way of learning and practicing Taijiquan, which in turn will explain why Wahnam practitioners can get more results in less time.

I will post my own findings later; meanwhile, I invite all of you to put yours.

Thank you,
Joko

[joko]

This is the first part:

TAICHI THEORY

The following is derived from a translation of the classical writings concerning Tai Chi which are said to date back to the Ming Dynasty (approx. 1362).

Tai Chi (the Supreme Ultimate) arises from Wu Chi (the formless). It is the origin of movement and quietude, and the mother of Yin and Yang.
In movement they separate and in quietude they close. There should be no excess, no insufficiency. Yield to your opponent's advances and adhere when he retreats. When the other's movement comes quickly, respond quickly; when the other's movement comes slowly, respond slowly. The techniques
change but this principle remains constant.

Through the process of long and diligent practice, there comes an understanding of the "internal force." From this understanding, comes a "spiritual illumination". But you will not understand this without much time and effort.

The top of the head is empty, alert and still. The breath sinks to the "dan tien". The body is not inclined, leaning, bending or stretching. The opponent cannot detect as you become "empty" where he attacks, and you become "solid" and follow him when he retreats. The body becomes so sensitive that the weight of a fly landing on you sets you in motion-shifting from solid to empty.

Stand as a balanced scale, move like a wheel. Keep one leg heavy, one leg light. If the weight is kept on both legs, you will never have good results. To avoid this you must know Yin and Yang. To "adhere" is also to withdraw, and to withdraw is also to "adhere". Yin does not leave Yang and Yang does not leave Yin. Yin and Yang necessarily complement each other and one does not exist without the other. You will understand the "internal force" if you understand this concept.

The mind directs the breath, and orders it to sink so that it may be gathered into the bones. Then, the breath moves the body freely, following the desire of the mind. When you want to use the "chi", sink the breath deeply, but remain relaxed and quiet, and then concentrate in a single direction toward the opponent. When you are standing, the body must be straight, relaxed and balanced so that you may protect yourself from all directions. When you use this energy, it is like finely refined steel—able to defeat all hardness. In appearance be like an eagle swooping down upon a rabbit; in spirit, as a cat catching a mouse.

When quiet, be like a mountain; when moving, like water running in a great river.

Storing up breath is like drawing a bow; releasing it is like shooting an arrow. Find the straight, from the curved. When you move back and forth, the body must have folds. When you advance and retreat, you must have turns and changes. If you can regulate the inhalation and exhalation, then the body can be light and lively.

The mind gives the command; the breath goes forth as the banner, and the waist executes the command.

If the opponent does not move, then you do not move. If the opponent moves even slightly, then you move faster than him.

The energy is rooted in the feet, it passes through the legs, is controlled and directed by the waist, and emerges in the fingers.

All parts of the body must be thought of as connected, like a string of pearls.

[joko]

This is the second part:

IMPORTANT POINTS OF TAI CHI PRACTICE

If you practice Tai-Chi diligently, you will find that your body will be better able to resist the heat of summer and the cold of winter. You will have more resistance to illness. It improves thinking ability, concentration and hastens your mental and physical responses. Practicing Tai Chi everyday moderates the temperament and reduces both mental and physical fatigue. The practice of Tai Chi breathing will result in improved respiration and circulation.
The blood will circulate through the body freely. There will be improvements in digestion and metabolism. Tai Chi will strenghten the body and prolong youthfulness.

Among the most important and basic aspects of Tai Chi Chuan are the Eight Powers and the Five Internal and Five External positions.
The Eight Powers are: (1) Ward-Off, (2) Roll Back, (3) Press, (4) Push, (5) Pull Down, (6) Split, (7) Elbowing, and (8) Shouldering.
The Five Internal positions are: (1) Sticking, (2) Attaching, (3) Joining, (4) Following, and (5) Neither letting go nor resisting.
The Five External positions are: (1) Step Forward, (2) Step Backward, (31 Look Left, (4) Look Right, and (5) Stand centered.

Tai Chi Chuan should be performed in a slow and gentle manner. In every movement the entire body must be light and comfortable, and it is especially important that all parts of the body function together,

At dawn, when beginning to practice Tai Chi, the best direction is facing north because the north gives off ultra-violet rays which are beneficial.
To understand Tai Chi power, you need to understand the meaning of: "as hard as steel, as soft as cotton; as slow and steady as chasing after an ant."

SLOW FORM and FAST FORM

What is Slow Form. It is the iron, wood, or bamboo used to build a house. As with any structure, it's the foundation that must be strong.
If it's not, the house will fall down. So it is with the practice of Tai Chi Chuan Slow Form -every movement, each position must be clear. Without careful attention, there can be no strong foundation on which to build. When beginning to practice the slow form, study the photographs and follow the description of the movements. Go slowly. Each day learn only one technique, never attempting to learn more than 10 movements. If you practice every day, in about 6 months you should complete all the techniques of the Traditional Style Tai Chi Chuan.

When you first begin to learn the form, pay special attention to the following points:
Body-Straight, relaxed, loose, soft.
Feet- Pointing straight ahead, shoulder distance apart.
Hands-Relaxed by the sides of the legs.
Head-Straight, facing front.
Mind—Relax the mind. Don't think of anything.
Chest -Relax.
Back -Rounded.
Eyes—Half-closed, but the spirit inside excited.
Face-Keep a slight smile.
Tongue-Touch to upper palate.
Breath-Use the nose, not the mouth. Take three slow deep breaths, directing each breath to the Dan Tien.

Before beginning the slow form, remind yourself of each of these points.
After you have completed learning the entire movements, continue to practice for a few months. Remember to follow the movement as shown in the photographs, one by one. After a time the movement will begin to become smooth. When very smooth, try to connect the techniques. When one movement is completed, immediately begin the next. After some practice, when the connected form begins to feel more comfortable, start to pay special attention to the circle in each movement. You won't find a complete circle in every technique. Perhaps there will be only a half-circle or a quarter-circle, but be aware that each and every movement is rounded. With more practice, the form will become very smooth, like water running in a great river. When, from beginning to end, the whole form is connected and there is no stopping from the first technique to the last, only then does it become Fast Form of Tai Chi Chuan.

---

[joko]

And this is the third part:

CONCLUSION

You need to approach the practice of Tai Chi with patience. Don't think of Tai Chi as just a series of movements which can be acquired easily.
Once you've decided to begin, begin correctly. Slow, soft, relax. These concepts must be understood.

Slow— When you practice slowly, you're practicing your patience.
You are exercising your temper. And you're building up your chi.
Soft— When you practice softly, you practice your internal power.
Softness leads to strength.
Relax- Learn how to relax the heart and practice how to make the mind quiet. Internal power comes from a quiet mind.

Above all, don't rush. If you enjoy Tai Chi, you can practice for your whole life.

The postures of the Traditional Style are carefully depicted in the photographs in this book. Each technique has been broken down into separate parts.
This will make it easier for the person who really wants to learn Tai Chi but hasn't the time to practice in a Kung Fu School. It's also for someone who has learned the form before, but forgotten, or somebody who is just beginning to learn and isn't sure if the movements are correct. Toward these ends, this book will be helpful, but certainly, finding a good Sifu is the best way to learn Tai Chi. You can learn only so much from any book and Tai Chi contains much that must be learned. For example:
Slow Form—Sets the foundation. Makes the body strong.
Fast Form—Teaches how to make the power run smoothly.
Push Hands—Trains your "listening power" and teaches how to use the techniques for self-protection. There are several kinds of push hands exercises, and each one has a different purpose and method of practice.
Tai Chi Partner Form—Teaches the basics of self defense.
Sword and Sabre Forms—Teaches how to use a weapon for fighting, and how to extend the chi.
It will take much time to develop a good Tai Chi form. Practice for a full year and you'll understand only 10% of the system. Practice for two years and you'll find that you are healthier than when you began. Practice for three years and you'll find your internal organs getting stronger and therefore you will not get sick as easily. Practice more than three years and you'll find yourself beginning to understand more deeply, this treasure of Chinese Kung Fu.

Many people today are interested in Tai Chi only as an exercise for health.
They have no interest or time to learn how to protect themselves with Tai Chi Chuan. The Tai Chi System has lost much because of this. Many with little knowledge themselves are teaching others. When you really want to learn Tai Chi, find a good Sifu. Not one who has only read much about Tai Chi, but one with a deep understanding.
You won't find in this book a history of the system or a thorough discussion of Tai Chi.
There are many books that contain this information. It is unnecessary to repeat it in yet another book. I do want everybody who wants to learn, to learn well from these photographs of the Traditional Style Slow Form.

--.--

[joko]

Why is Taijiquan performed slowly?

Dear all,

Please have a look at the above three posts, and then take a look at this video-clip Series, and this.

Now, can we start our discussion?
For instance, does it have to be practiced slowly, despite the facts that it is martial art?
What is the cost-effective way of learning and practicing it?

Thanks,

Joko

[Ray]

Hi Sifu Joko,
Here's my initial, brief analysis.
There are some important differences between Sifu's system and the system you posted for us. Firstly, the posted system teaches from the physical to the internal while Sifu teaches to go straight to the internal. This is an important difference. Sifu emphasizes stances at first while the other system teaches learning the movements to build the body. The other system emphasizes moving slowly (slow form) to learn the movements and build energy then to move to the fast form for combat application.
Second, Sifu moves from stances which build energy to footwork to flowing movements. In this transition the internal aspect is maintained and emphasized. The posted system moves on to weapons to learn how to extend chi, push hands, etc. It uses more techniques to develop the internal aspect. Sifu continues to emphasize the internal aspect as he teaches combat application and combat strategy and tactics. I think although there are less techniques (forms to be learned) it is taken to higher and higher levels and in a smooth systematic manner.
Thirdly, Sifu goes straight to teaching principles over forms similar to:
"The technique changes but the principle remains constant"
The other posted system seems to try to use techniques to develop the principle. Sifu implements the principle from the beginning and develops it with techniques to a systematic sparring system to finally free sparring. The other system has no systematic sparring system with probably push hands as the closest.
Finally, I don't think Tai Chi chuan must be performed slowly necessarily. In the posted system one transitions from slow to fast as development. I think when Sifu teaches you the principles the energy can come out slow or fast.

There really is a lot here: it would take at least weeks to analyze everything presented. I hope this helps get the discussion going.

Best,

Ray

[TheGreenKnight]

Good question,

I practice chen style taijiquan (via the Hong Junsheng 'practical method'). Although this isn't Shaolin taiji, it might still add something to the discussion. Take from it what you will.

Like divineshadow has pointed to, there are different ways to approach the issue of developing skill.

In our system, there are two major facets
1) fundamental exercises - called circles, the positive and negative circle
2) form

We practice about 1/3 fundamental exercises, and 2/3 form; or even 1/2 and 1/2.

1 allows the practitioner to drill the body alignment rules set out by Hong. The goal is to forge a body that adheres to taiji principles in movement. These exercises are practiced slow to very slow to ensure quality body structure. Eventually, the skills learned in these exercises will be transported directly into the form, in all moves. This is because the form is basically a bunch of circles strung together in different positions. If you can do the circles properly (no easy feat), this means that one adheres to taiji principles in movement, and this also means that the form can be done properly as well.

Anyway, when it comes to form, I have heard recommendations like - practice one out of every 10 forms fast. In my experience, fast forms have limited use at the start. The whole goal is to train the body to adheres to taiji principles. At the start, this usually requires slow or very slow movements, otherwise the body tends to disconnect and body structure falls apart. In the chen system, this means that no spirals or splitting energy can be produced. No spirals or no splitting energy means no taiji. So, I like to do a few forms very slow, and the rest slow to normal. I do very few forms 'fast' because my body tends to loose all connection (ie, I am not really doing taiji but something that resembles taiji). Really, I do fast forms just to remind myself how much work I still need to do. Yet, the goal in the end is to be able to move at any speed while still adhering to taiji principles. In other words, this movement must become second nature, which is why there are so few real taiji masters out there.

So, to refine my point - the whole goal is to move with proper mechanics. At the start, it is necessary to go slow to very slow, and as one's skill increases, one can go faster and faster and still move with taiji principles.

Just a note, I believe the 'slow' in chen style is not equivalent to the slow in yang style. Yang style tends to be much slower and more 'even' in its movements.

[Jonny Say]

Why is Shaolin Kung Fu performed slowly

Dear Family

On the last summer camp in canterbury some of my brothers and I had the privilage to learn Cross Roads at the Four Gates 2 man set from Sigung. Many times whilst learning the set Sigung told us to slow down our movements so we can get the subtle points of each technique and to work on smoothness.

I think this answer relates to the theme of this thread - basically if we go slower it is easier to get the fine points of each technique, and to learn another important feature of combat efficiency - smoothness or flow.

All the best

[Hubert]

On the last summer camp in canterbury some of my brothers and I had the privilage to learn Cross Roads at the Four Gates 2 man set from Sigung.

I remember this training session with fondness, as for each move I was doing, I would hear Sifu shouting "No, wrong!", his tone becoming increasingly louder.

[here is me performing a pattern]
Sifu: Wrong!
[Ok, I do it again, making sure it's perfect]
Sifu: No, not like this
[Sifu demonstrating how I am doing it. Surely that can't be right. In my head it looks much better]

Later I looked at some videos, and indeed it was not so good.
The main point is that I was mistaking skill with speed, sacrifying everything else in the process.

As my Brother Jonny mentioned, when we practice slowly, we can pay attention to the finest points. Eventually, we flow so well that the pattern or technique is actually efficient at that slow speed! Speed then becomes irrelevant, in that it's not the deciding factor anymore. If the attack comes fast, never mind, I can respond fast or slow. If the attack is slow, never mind, I can respond fast or slow.

The same can be applied in daily life. If suddenly we are overwhelmed with unexpected events, never mind, we remain calm, and deal with them at our own pace.

If we only train to be fast, we miss the whole point.

[Ade]

Dear All,

In my old Tai Chi school after learning the first part of the Yang 108 set as a beginner, my Instructor asked us to practice it much slower than normal to emphasise the need for breath control/regulation as well as making us more relaxed/powerful when doing the set.

Sifu states in the Complete Book of Tai Chi Chuan that-
“ Tai Chi students also normally perform their movements slowly, as it is easier to develop the flow of Internal energy with slower movements, but when they are skilful in doing this, the movements can and should be fast and powerful, thus completing the harmonious cycle of yin (slow and gentle) and yang (fast and powerful) “

Ade

[Ray]

Hi everyone,
Great responses. As a total beginner I practice the form slowly to see if I am doing it right on the physical level (which includes body mechanics, joint alignment, turning from waist, shifting weight ^^') I sometimes pause in the movements to adjust myself.
As I understand it, this is different than a tai chi practitioner practicing at the internal level. I don't understand all of it, but I remember hearing that some practitioners would pause at certain movements to develop internal force.

I hope this isn't too off-topic but I felt it is an important point: although the external may be the same, the effect and level are greatly different. It's like having shaky arms from tension versus shaky arms from internal force.

Best,

Ray

[joko]

Dear all,

Thanks for your responses.
Alex (GreenKnight), your contribution is appreciated.
And it is heartening that our Shaolin Kung Fu brothers have posted as well.

First, I'd like you to know that it is not my intention to show disrespect to the Taijiquan Master who wrote the articles that I posted in my previous posts, or to the other systems or schools of Taijiquan anywhere in the world. The discussion in this thread is meant only for discussion, with the aim to have better understanding (and hence more appreciation) of the video clips downloaded from Sifu's websites.
For easy reference, the author of the writings I quoted will be referred as the Master. The Master has learned and practiced Taijiquan since childhood from his family; so in fact I am in no position to evaluate him. Actually, I am grateful to be able to read some of his writings.

Slow Taichi Forms in Public Places

I am writing here based on my own experience. My observation of other people's practice in Taijiquan is derived from my own perception while watching them practice in public places and have conversation with some of them, after their practice in public places.

From my observation of the Taichi form practitioners in public area in my city and other cities in Indonesia that I am familiar with, their general aim and objective are more or less affiliated to modernised Wushu. The general aim is to practice for health, with socialization with other people as bonus. The objective is to be able to perform Taijiquan forms beautifully, following the guidelines written by the Committee in Beijing. Their idols are the Champions of Wushu-Taijiquan Competition. Besides the Taijiquan forms, they also practice the 18 Steps of Taiji Chikung.
That is perhaps the representation of the majority of Taijiquan practitioners in public area in the world. They genuinely believe that practicing the set in accordance with the guidelines set by the Beijing Committee will get the best result. There is also an accompanying music for each set.
For them, Taijiquan should and must be practiced slowly. The standard is 5-7 minutes for a set like 24 Form set, 42-International Mixed Style set, 56 Chen form set. Even shorter set of 8 form is practiced in 3 minutes. They think practicing Taijiquan fast is wrong. Some even say that they cannot practice the set without the accompanying music.
So, how Taichichuan is learnt and practiced depends on the aim and objectives, or the purpose of learning it.

The foundation

Now, let us proceed our discussion, with reference to the Master's writings and to the video-clip series in Sifu's websites.
We begin with the foundation. What about the Aim and Objective? Let me assume that each of us has derived our own Aims and Objectives; we'll refer to the Aim and Objective when the discussion touches the subject. We can find reference to aim and objective in the Theory of Taichichuan:

Through the process of long and diligent practice, there comes an understanding of the "internal force." From this understanding, comes a "spiritual illumination". But you will not understand this without much time and effort.

(Shaolin Wahnam students can understand this even during the Course itself).

It is interesting that the Master mentioned the analogy of building a house.

What is Slow Form. It is the iron, wood, or bamboo used to build a house. As with any structure, it's the foundation that must be strong. If it's not, the house will fall down. So it is with the practice of Tai Chi Chuan Slow Form -every movement, each position must be clear. Without careful attention, there can be no strong foundation on which to build. When beginning to practice the slow form, study the photographs and follow the description of the movements. Go slowly. Each day learn only one technique, never attempting to learn more than 10 movements. If you practice every day, in about 6 months you should complete all the techniques of the Traditional Style Tai Chi Chuan.

From the above description, according to the Master, the slow form is the foundation. Begin immediately with the form, or, patterns.

Only after learning all the forms (patterns) that the practitioner will start to perform it in a continuous manner, to find the circles, and to find the connection between the patterns. With more practice, the form will become very smooth, like water running in a great river. When, from beginning to end, the whole form is connected and there is no stopping from the first technique to the last, only then does it become Fast Form of Tai Chi Chuan.

So, practicing slowly is not the goal. It is a means to practice, to reach the ability to practice the set as connected and flowing forms from beginning to end. Only then does it become Fast Form of Taichichuan. Fast Form is necessary if it is to be used for combat.

In our school, Shaolin Wahnam Institute, the foundation is Stance Training and Footwork, the secrets revealed and explained publicly, in the Video-Clip Series. Only when we have acquired the Internal Force from Stance Training and the skill from Footwork (which includes leg and body movement), that we begin to learn and practice the forms.

See the difference in approach?
In the Master's approach, slow practice of the forms is used to feel the circles, the flowing, and the connections. In our school, we acquired the skill to feel the circles, flowing, and connections, from the Footwork training. As prerequisite for successful footwork training, we practice Stance Training.

Which approach or system is more effective and have more result in less time?
You can see yourself. It takes about 6 months to learn the external forms, and then several more months to feel the circles, roundness, etc. until it becomes very smooth, like water running in great river.
Now, please take a look at the video-clip Series of the Blue Mountain Taijiquan Course.
There were two participants whom I know personally, Priya and Wouter, from the Netherlands. They were fresh beginners of Taijiquan in that course. And they were capable of performing the forms smoothly, in less than a week!

Something worth to be noted

Please notice the words chosen by the Master: What is Slow Form. It is the iron, wood, or bamboo used to build a house. As with any structure, it's the foundation that must be strong. If it's not, the house will fall down.

As we know, the foundation of a house is a compacted and prepared ground site with necessary stones and boulders. Iron, wood, or bamboo is used later to build the structure, walls and roofs. So, it may be interpreted that the Master did not mean the slow form as the foundation. Being descendant from a family of past masters, he must be aware of the importance of the stance and footwork training.

In this sense, yes, after the stance training and footwork as foundation, then the forms are learned and practiced; it is the iron, wood, or bamboo to build the house.

Dear all,

There are still many other aspects that can be further discussed.
Meanwhile, let's take a pause here.

The conclusion of this post: Taijiquan may be practiced slowly, or fast; in any speed. It depends on the purpose of practicing.

Joko

[joko]

I don't understand all of it, but I remember hearing that some practitioners would pause at certain movements to develop internal force.

To pause in certain patterns is the same with staying immobile in a certain stance with certain hand form. And that is stance training, the master's secret to develop internal force.

I hope this isn't too off-topic but I felt it is an important point: although the external may be the same, the effect and level are greatly different.

You might want to read the responses in 'Poise Patterns' thread. Externally, the difference between 'Lohan Asks the Way' and 'Single Tiger Emerges from Cave' is the form of the forward hand. Internally? Enjoy the responses from our brothers in that thread.

Joko

[Ray]

Dear Sifu Joko,
Thank you for this thread and your recommendations and analysis.

Yours,

Ray

[joko]

I practice chen style taijiquan (via the Hong Junsheng 'practical method'). Although this isn't Shaolin taiji, it might still add something to the discussion. Take from it what you will.

Your contribution is highly appreciated. I did a little search and gratefully found the video-clips of Master Chen Zhonghua performing the set with explanation on the Basic Rules of Taijiquan, and demonstrating the combat application of Yilu and Erlu. I enjoy watching them.
Master Chen Zhonghua is the inner-chamber disciple of Master Hong Junsheng.

In our system, there are two major facets
1) fundamental exercises - called circles, the positive and negative circle
2) form

We practice about 1/3 fundamental exercises, and 2/3 form; or even 1/2 and 1/2.

It allows the practitioner to drill the body alignment rules set out by Hong. The goal is to forge a body that adheres to taiji principles in movement. These exercises are practiced slow to very slow to ensure quality body structure. Eventually, the skills learned in these exercises will be transported directly into the form, in all moves. This is because the form is basically a bunch of circles strung together in different positions. If you can do the circles properly (no easy feat), this means that one adheres to taiji principles in movement, and this also means that the form can be done properly as well.

Thank you for sharing this. I like the term 'quality body structure'. Probably this is the answer to the question raised in the "All-sided support" thread.
May I say that once we acquire the skills to have 'quality body structure' in our forms and movements, then we can have the 'all-sided support'?

This is because the form is basically a bunch of circles strung together in different positions.

I am impressed by this expression. Sometimes the circles are called spiralling action, at other times referred as rotation.
The positive and negative circles; does it refer to the direction of the rotation (positive circle means clock wise direction, and negative means counter-clock direction)?

So, to refine my point - the whole goal is to move with proper mechanics. At the start, it is necessary to go slow to very slow, and as one's skill increases, one can go faster and faster and still move with taiji principles.

Again, I agree with you. Go faster and faster, and still move with Taiji principles.

Just a note, I believe the 'slow' in chen style is not equivalent to the slow in yang style. Yang style tends to be much slower and more 'even' in its movements.

Yes, in Chen style, we can see more expressions of fast and slow, soft and hard, etc. And the combat application is also more expressed than in Yang style.

I recall reading somewhere that in Traditional Chen Style, the first form (YiLu) is performed slower than the second form (Erlu). Because Yilu is intended to develop the internal force, whereas Erlu is intended for preparation for combat purpose; hence usually Erlu is performed much faster than Yilu.
In your system, do you have similar approach when practicing the Yilu and Erlu forms?

I am grateful to be able to have discussion with you.

All the best,
Joko