Grappling & Kung-Fu--Myth & Reality

[Mark Blohm]

Simon Sihing,

Sifu Paul made this statement in post 184 of this thread

sorry George but I don't see that as effective - in my experience it will not work. Striking someone as they shoot in is extremely high risk and you'll be lucky to hit hard enough and accurately enough to stop them, better to evade the danger and then strike. Sinking down into a shoot like the one in the video will work - against a proper shoot it'll fail miserably.

regarding this video

http://shaolin.org/video-clips/courses-4/sifu-shoot01a.html

I believe my post about internal force adressed the argument(like the one above)that Kung Fu needs extra techniques, from other systems (including grappling arts), to be effective.

Also, thank you for starting the One Finger Shooting Physics thread. Perhaps I'll post there.

Mark

[Kaitain]

Mark - I guess what I'm saying is that in my system, using a sprawl isnt going outside of the art, since the art is principle based. For example I kept most of my striking from Muay Thai, I just use Taiji mechanics to drive it. I can find all of the strikes I use in the form, the mechanics are there. Brush Knee Twist Step contains the mechanics for a lead/cross/rear round kick - you just have to feel what your body is doing and take your mind away from the hands and feet and put it into your dan tien. caveat - in my system that's how it works.

Aside from that - "Step Back and Repulse Monkey" can be interpreted as a partial sprawl - one hand is staying forward and applying forward pressure whilst the rest of the body is moved back away from it. So I dont think of what Im doing as in anyway contrary or counter to the art I learn. Since Wahnam students on this thread have stated that they will use the sprawl if necessary, I dont think the finger pointing at my system is particularly valid. You'll notice that my criticism on the grappling front dropped away once everyone reached that point of agreement - at times the sprawl is the only thing that will work, but ideally we dont want to get to the stage where it's required. The discussion then moved on to different perspectives on how to make that happen.

I learn to ground-fight so I dont have to. Taijiquan is a stand-up art predicated on fighting from the grappling range - control the opponent, strike the opponent, let him fall or throw him out - all at the same time. However, I'm not as good as my teachers so I dont have the conviction that I will never get dragged to the floor or knocked over - consequently I train with people who are very good at doing that.

Regarding Internal Force - as someone said, I dont discount it - I'm just taught (and teach) things differently. Without feeling what you are discussing (and vice versa) it is not fruitful to talk about it - the best I can do is show my video of my hitting power. I know I have enough power to stop someone with one punch - if they stand still, let me hit them flush in the chin and I am in a deep rooted stance (say if Im doing heavy bag work and just set myself for power - I dont mean a low stance like you guys use). However, when someone is sparring with me none of those things apply - I have to train for the scenario where it goes wrong and I dont stop them. My questions to those advocating Internal Force alone are as follows:
1) have you ever used Internal Force to stop someone?
2) are you certain of landing a good clean hit on someone shooting in on you?
3) why would you predicate your strategy on being able to land one good clean hit?

My own responses would be:
1) I dont think so. However, I have hit people hard enough to stop them continuing.
2) no.
3) I don't

Anyway - I hope I answered everyone. I'll look on the other threads now.

Cheers

Paul

[Ronan]

Hi Paul,

My own responses to those would be,

1) Yes
2) no
3) I don't

1) I've hit someone with force when I've been relaxed, focused and even though it was square on their cheek bone (which isn't the best place to hit, but it was dark) there wasn't the slightest mark on my knuckles and I felt like I was punching through hot butter. I'd literally just finished practicing Chi Kung before the fight. Also after the fight (which was actually quite serious) I wasn't shaking with adrenaline, I was still relaxed and focused. To me that is the use of internal force (allbeit at a low level) in combat.

2) Of course you can't be certain of landing a clean hit, I can't even be certain I'll wake up tommoro morning! But that doesn't mean I won't prepare for it. If I couldn't do an advantagous defence to a take down I'd have to resort to a sprawl, but the fact would remain that the only reason I'd have to sprawl would be because of my own lack of skill in applying a better defence.

3) Yeah I agree, that would be very silly. But funnily enough that's how most street fights are. One guy swings and just assumes the other guy's head is gonna roll clean off his shoulders once he connects. Fair enough it works sometimes (not the head rolling bit, but the connection) but if he doesn't connect then he's left flapping.

Best wishes

Ronan

[Kaitain]

So Ronan, it'd be fair to say you "train for failure"

Good post - glad you didnt get hurt in your altercation.

[Jonny Say]

Dear Paul

I agree with the concept of training for failure, as long as we are aware that it is our failure in skill not the art we practice.

Best wishes

[Kaitain]

exactly right and I agree 1000000000000%

[Ronan]

So Ronan, it'd be fair to say you "train for failure"

Yeah of course, saftey first right?

[Charles David]

My Kitchen Table

Hello Sifu Paul,

I have kept out of the conversation since I do not practice Tai Chi Chuan, but rather, Shaolinquan. I will interject now to say it has been rather interesting as your perspective and experience differ so greatly from ours. Having guests, especially experienced ones like you, always helps us to understand our own practice better. It is particularly interesting for me that you are attempting to discredit our Sifu and our school. It makes me wonder what your motivation is. At any rate, I certainly hope that some of my brothers will have a chance to meet and learn from you in person. Perhaps we will be lucky enough to see the video footage online.

Regarding your belief in Internal Force, I went back and reread some of your posts. Indeed you have made it clear that you do not disbelieve in Internal Force but rather, have no experience of it. This is, perhaps, the most noteworthy difference between your experience and ours. For example I was able to feel and know what Internal Force was in the first thirty seconds of my training with Sifu Wong. There is no need for me to define chi just as I do not have to define my kitchen table, simply because I know what it is.

I wish you all the best in your training and look forward to a long and friendly relationship between our schools.


With Shaolin Salute,

[Adam Kryder]

Purpose

Dear Paul

I agree with the concept of training for failure, as long as we are aware that it is our failure in skill not the art we practice.

Why not forget about failure and success, and just train for purpose and
intent (silence)?

The last thing I want to be thinking about in the event of combat is my failure or success. what must I do?

I compare this to cliff jumping, before I throw myself off of a 30 to 70 foot cliff, failure or success must both be absent, all I need is silence and intent.
With doubts absent, the unknown has room to take hold.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Best wishes

Adam

[Adam Kryder]

this train of thought might be better discussed here:

http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?p=40724#post40724

[Kaitain]

Cha Muir - an interesting piece of passive aggression. Let's move on eh? I havent been trying to discredit your Sifu or school - I've sought clarification over some questions I had and people have attempted to answer them. For the most part it has been polite and well-mannered, with some failings on either side of the debate at times. I have asked myself what motivation I could have for continuing the taijiquan discussion, and there is none - I have posted accordingly on the appropriate thread. Should your brothers decide they want to come and video an exchange with me, I would suggest that that is an entirely different proposition to a friendly exchange of views. My interest starts and stops at 'friendly exchange' - I have no time for challenges and other such nonsense.

As for Internal Force - I have no direct experience of what you and your school calls Internal Force (how could I? Ive never studied with any of you). However, some of you seem to mistake that for meaning I don't believe in chi and that I've never experienced anything that would be described as chi manipulation. This is an error in interpretation on your part. I choose to use a different set of terminology and labels for my experiences - perhaps you ought to avoid mistaking the label as the method?

I hope that clarifies things

Paul

[Ronan]

Hey Adam,

Good point. most of us know that the best way to get over whelmed and beaten badly in sparring is to be too tentative and give your opponent too much respect. If you are unsure of youself and your shen and spirit aren't there you're likely to get mowed down. But at the same time it's not a good idea to be over confident and totally underestimate your opponent, no matter who they are. At the end of the day a three year old child could have a gun tucked in the back of their belt...but lets hope not eh? One of the best martial artists I ever met got stabbed once by a crazy drunken tramp women who was shouting at passers by, just because he turned his back on her and didn't see her as a threat.

The last thing I want to be thinking about in the event of combat is my failure or success. what must I do?

I compare this to cliff jumping, before I throw myself off of a 30 to 70 foot cliff, failure or success must both be absent

Using this analogy, we can apply the same mind set. By training for failure we mean, going through drills for the possibilities of something going wrong in the jump. You cover as many angles as you can, not because you expect to have an accident, but so that if one happens you can react to it quicker and more efficiently. The same also applies, if you're too tentative you won't make the jump or you'll mess up before you even attempt it and if you're too confident and wreckless you won't be ready if something goes wrong.

When we're prepared for the worst it gives us the confidence and calmness to do our best without worrying about "what am I gonna do if he does this or does that" because you've already invested time training the "what if's". I like this method. It's how most special forces operate. "What if what if what if" and then when they've covered every angle they can just get down to business.

Best wishes

Ronan

[Antonius]

I havent been trying to discredit your Sifu or school - I've sought clarification over some questions I had and people have attempted to answer them.

Really Paul? I'll take your word for it that you haven't been "trying" to discredit Sifu Wong, but the fact remains that many of us feel that you are doing it, nonetheless. I'm curious. I have my own opinions, of course. And I have read what others have written. But so that we can all get a clearer picture, let's take a poll!

Has Kaitain been disrespectful?

[Antonius]

Back to the topic of grappling and kung fu. I've got a fun experiment for everyone, and a gift for Shaolin Wahnam students.

First, form a Phoenix Eye Fist by making a fist, then raising the knuckle of the index finger. Support the raised finger by placing the thumb over the fingernail. The middle knuckle of the index finger thus becomes a potent weapon.

Now, take the Phoenix Eye Fist and, very gently, press it into your neck. Pick different spots on your neck on the side, front, and back. See how this feels.

Imagine the Phoenix Eye Fist being driven into your neck with full power. Forget about internal force for a moment. Just imagine that knuckle shooting into your neck. Even without internal force, it's a powerful weapon.

With internal force, it is just plain ugly. I don't expect to convince Paul, but for those of you who have direct experience of the piercing power of internal force, I'm sure you can do the math.

Think of all the important "things" in the neck: the trachea, the carotid arteries, the jugular vein, the cervical vertebrae, etc. Crush the trachea, and you're dead. Disrupt the carotid artery or the jugular vein, and you'll lose consciousness. Dislodge a cervical vertabrae, and you're paralyzed.

With good Shaolin footwork and solid stances, it's not terribly difficult to drive a Phoenix Fist into the neck of a shooter (yes, even a good one). I would estimate that, for students above Level 4, it would require about 10 hours of solid practice with a partner to become effective against most grapplers. It may not work 100% of the time, but that boils down to skill, not technique.

And by effective, I mean that you will be able to land it while simultaneously avoiding the shoot. You can do this by using the footwork for Lohan Strikes Drum from Sequence 9, and changing the strike to a straight, low Phoenix Fist (Crane Drinks Beside Stream). The footwork removes your front leg from a single-leg takedown while simultaneously getting you in position to deliver the Phoenix fist, which should come in at the side of the neck.

The great thing about the neck is that it is a large target. You don't need pinpoint accuracy for this technique. Just hit the neck -- anywhere. If they adjust and try to shoot for the other leg, or go for a double-leg takedown, repeat the techinque on the other side. Eventually, they'll gain ground and take you down, but not before you can deliver 2-4 good strikes.

Another nice thing about the Phoenix fist is that it can be done even if you get taken down. You'll need to have some experience with getting taken down, and know how latch on correctly, but once you do, you can deliver powerful Phoenix fists to the neck while grappling. With practice, you can get in a few strikes before you get mounted.

Whether or not these strikes would stop an opponent is up for debate. Obviously, we're not about to test them full power on a live person and capture it on video. I imagine that Paul (and others) will continue to believe that these strikes don't have enough stopping power. That's fine.

Some people prefer techniques that can be tested full power. I don't. I am satisfied with "doing the math." It's enough for me. Just as I don't need to actually gouge someone's eye to know that it would stop a fight, I don't need to drive a Phoenix Fist into someone's neck to know that it would stop a shoot.

[Andrew]

Great post Anthony.

I'd just like to highlight one thing Anthony said:

take the Phoenix Eye Fist and, very gently, press it into your neck

Please be careful folks.

Andrew