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For those of you who've been following Kaitain's posts the past few weeks, I'm curious whether you think his words have been disrespectful. Please be honest. I am simply curious about the opinions of members. I hope that this will give me (and others) more perspective on things.
If you have not been following Kaitain's posts, then please don't vote. Or go read his posts before voting.
The dictionary definitions I have for disrepect are :
contempt
rudeness
lack of respect
With respect being defined as:
an attitude of deference, admiration or esteem
polite or kind regard; consideration
It seems at times that Kaitan has appeared contemptuous of Sifu's knowledge of, and ability in, Tai Chi Chuan. However, when challenged he says he isn't, just that it is different from his.
He has acted in a way that people on this forum have interpreted as rude. When asked about this he says he isn't being, or doesn't intend to be, rude - and has sometimes apologised.
Kaitan certainly appears to lack an attitude of deference to anyone he has encountered on this forum, or to Sifu. However, he does appear to have an attitude of deference to his teacher.
Kaitan doesn't appear to admire or esteem the way we practice Tai Chi Chuan - and certainly in his earlier posts he gave all the signs of saying "Look, I have practised these things (like defending against shoot) but I don't think you have. You should go off and try against 'real' fighters" - which some might argue appears arrogant or at least a little presumptious.
Kaitain has often seemed quite polite in interactions with some people and at others his way has felt rather impolite, which he has acknowledged at times.
I have never been fully clear about Kaitan's intention for coming to this forum. It seems from some of his recent posts that he has started to question that as well. It could be inferred that he wanted to come here and take some people down a peg or two. It is difficult to tell. I know from own past that an intention I started out with in an encounter with someone has sometimes changed as I got to know them.
I think ultimately disrespect is in the eye of the beholder. If someone tells me I have disrespected them I guess I would hope to apologise for a start, if that wasn't my intention, and then find out how I had done it. If I wanted to continue to be with that person I would refrain from doing it again, or if it went against the grain I would hope to walk away. Sometimes I manage to act this way and sometimes I don't, but as I practice I do get better at it.
I guess if Kaitan is being respectful on this forum we are seeing his way of doing it.
i do not know what has been writtten or to whom it has offended, but i say only this... why take anything personally? big deal, so what, are we all men and women incapable of holding our own? i do not need anyone else to stand behind my claims, i need not anyone to back me up; faith is belief despite the odds. if someone honestly believes something, how can you honestly condemn it? what is disrespect? what is respect?
Extremely disrepectful and unacceptable.
I am a practising clinician. If I receive a nasty comment on my professional practice from somebody who is not in my field, I will try to explain. failing which I would just ignore and move along.
If one of my colleague diagrees with some of my practise, we will have some private discussion and try to improve ourselves. If he/she chooses to instead attack (to the extent of saying I know nothing in my field and has no credential at all) me in front of my subordinates and patients. I would not even attempt to argue with him but literally kick him out of my clinic.
What Kaitain has done is what I consider as situation in my last paragraph and my proposed action would be as stated.
But I am not an internal martial artist and my spiritual attainment is much lower. My seniors tolerance level may be much higher but I still feel that a clear message must be delivered to him. "You are extremely disrecpectful"
But I am not an internal martial artist and my spiritual attainment is much lower. My seniors tolerance level may be much higher but I still feel that a clear message must be delivered to him. "You are extremely disrecpectful"
what a joke... you haven't even discovered yourself and you have already figured out someone else... amazing. until you grasp the internal, stay away from the external.
"Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."
Anthony - you're an interesting character. Respect is earned, not freely given. The man who shouts "you must respect me!" is rarely deserving of respect. I would question whether the absence of respect is disrespectful.
On any point that I've raised and have been questioned on, I have clarified and made clear my position. The fact that I disagree with things that are commonly held beliefs here seems to constitute disrespect (to some members), which is certainly an interesting way to deal with criticism. The members here that I do respect have all answered in a consistently clear and polite manner, have not been offensive and have disagreed with me through making a point, rather than an insult (veiled or otherwise).
Aside from anything, what does a poll discussing my disrespect or lack thereof achieve?
If you don't think that Sifu Wong has earned a base amount of respect, then you have no business being a guest on his forum.
If I walk into a doctor's office, even if I know nothing about the doctor, I still show a base amount of respect. If I had questions about his practices, I would ask politely. Even if I disagreed strongly with his methods, I would still show respect.
But maybe that's just me?
I would question whether the absence of respect is disrespectful.
Try saying that to a police officer who pulls your car over. I don't know how things are in the UK, but here, the absence of a respectful tone will get you a ticket, whereas a respectful tone will often get you off with a warning.
Is it so hard to be respectful? Is it so hard to phrase questions in a polite way? As I said before, it's not so much what you ask, but how you ask it.
To be clear, I'm not against the questions you're asking. It's fine to seek clarification. Obviously, much about Wahnam Taijiquan is unclear, and also unusual. It's also fine to disagree. But disagreement is not what's being discussed here.
The fact that I disagree with things that are commonly held beliefs here seems to constitute disrespect
Absoutely not. Disagreement is not the same as disrespect. You are welcome to disagree, and your differing beliefs have never bothered me. Your rudeness has.
Aside from anything, what does a poll discussing my disrespect or lack thereof achieve?
It helps to clarify things, to me at the very least, and probably to others. You insist that you haven't been disrespectful, so to be fair, I wanted to get a clearer picture. Personally, I think your disrespect is plain as day, but maybe that's just my opinion. The poll helps me to see other opinions.
which is certainly an interesting way to deal with criticism
I find it interested that you criticize our way of taking criticism. Personally, I think we've been tolerant. Is there a place that I can go to publicly disrespect your teacher in front of hundreds of his students?
If you come to my house, you have to conduct yourself in a proper way. Polite, with at least an effort in the choice of words. As a guest, one must show gratefulness for entering someone else' s house.
I will do exactly the same if I go to your house. Because, I will be both happy and grateful for being a guest.
This has nothing to do with discussing subjects and disagreement. Wahnam is a wonderful school full of tolerance, I am always amazed when people can't see this. We are always happy to welcome everybody and discuss any subjects. But this has to be done with respect, and consideration for the host.
This is a matter of how one must conduct in front of others.
It is a matter of Wu De. It is a matter of Genuine Martial Art, of the True Warior Way.
You can't come to my house as a guest and tell my family and others guests that I am not a good husband or father or I am worse at taking care of my family than you, and this under my own roof.
There is a difference between disagreement and disrespect. This is an important point I believe.
In case you doubt and can't tell the difference, just imagine Paul speaking like this in your own house, with your family around. Just ask your Heart.
It is a matter of Wu De. It is a matter of Genuine Martial Art, of the True Warior Way. If you can't act with kindness, gentle manners and consideration under your host's roof, then you are not worth other's respect.
I consider the Wahnam Forum like a (virtual) Kwoon.
I don't think Paul has expressed Wu De. In the past, if he would have walked in a Genuine Siu Lam Kwoon as a guest and talked the way he did, then ...
But we are not in the past, are we?
As a side note, this Wu De should not apply only under one's roof, but everywhere as well.
Yeah Anthony - the Yang family forums are a good place to find John's students, you'll find plenty of people there that agree with you (should you want to disrespect John)
I'd like to point out that Im a visitor here, not a guest - I wasnt invited. So if you would prefer me not to post here, I won't - Im here because I choose to be. If I had been abusive or offensive I could understand the use of the word "tolerance", I think that being critical is neither abusive or offensive. However, since you have found my words to be so, I will ensure that any further posts are written with that in mind. The internet is a bad place for transferring meaning, especially when limited to 5 smileys
Exactly what are we discussing here? My perceived disrespect to people here, your sifu, your art, all of it? I think it worth seperating them for discussion, just to avoid any further misinterpretation of what Im saying. I make a point regarding the earning of respect, somehow that gets interpreted as me not thinking your Sifu has earned respect - an amazing interpretation and entirely inaccurate.
Perhaps you could define what you mean by 'respect' and 'disrespect'? 'Rudeness' could use some work as well.
What are you trying to clarify? You already think Im disrespectful and more people agree with you than disagree (according to the poll it's something like 3:1) - what now? I still don't think I have been, you still think I have...
Barry - in some points you are on the money. However, a few things I would like to clear up:
1) I never made any such statement regarding 'real fighters' - my statements were along the lines of "I don't think that will work, I suggest you try it against a 'real' grappler". The discussion then evolved from there into a discussion of people in Wahnam who had previously trained grappling. I would also point out that some Wahnam students agreed with some of my premises (and some didnt). It would have been extremely presumptious and arrogant of me to state that there were no "real fighters" in Wahnam. My comments on the shoot/sprawl were based on the solutions being offered not sounding like they were based on any sort of real testing. This has been well covered.
2) I originally posted here to offer my p.o.v on the grappling discussion, nothing more. There was no intention to diminish people in any way - what I was offering was the perspective of someone who has tested his techniques against 'real' grapplers, found that they don't always work and that a sprawl/check works well and is not contrary to the taijiquan principles or methods that I train. Some Wahnam students also agreed with this premise, others didnt - I think we all agreed that we train strategies that try and negate the opponent's opportunity to shoot anyway, but that "safety First" (in your parlance) or "Train for failure" (in mine) suggest that knowing how to sprawl is valuable. Again I think this was well covered.
3) The taijiquan debate is one I wish I had listened to myself about. I knew there was absolutely no point in discussing it here with students of that system - my opinions and beliefs about taijiquan are such that it would only lead to an unpleasant thread as Wahnam taijiquan people could only be defensive/upset in response. I allowed myself to get involved in response to Mo's post attacking me - I shouldnt have involved myself, I should have maintained my position of discussing it elsewhere or via email. I will not get involved with any discussion of Wahnam taijiquan here, I should have known better. I'm too old to be arguing on the internet. If I was going to hold my hands up to anything regarding disrespect, then I would say that criticising Wahnam taijiquan on a Wahnam forum was disrespectful (and pointless). I apologise for that unreservedly - it doesnt mean my opinions are different, but this was not the place to air them.
4) I have enjoyed some of the discussions here and I like some of the people and attitudes that I have found.
I'd just like to say that I've found what Kaitan's been posting to be by far the most interesting stuff here over the last couple of weeks.
Personally, I like his attitude! The wider the views we get here on this forum the better, in my opinion.
I also feel a bit concerned by the recent tendency for the Wahnam family here to overreact to 'foreign bodies'. Whats going on? I really think its a bit of a shame...
It's a difficult thing to take when someone is asking hard, pointed questions about things that you hold dear. But that doesn't mean it's rudeness or disrespect. We've touched on this kind of question elsewhere - I feel that I've got the right to, for example, question the teachings of someone's religion, the factual basis for what someone believes in.
In my opinion, Paul has done his best to be polite. He has never been abusive and offensive. Some of us have told him he's 'talking crap', for example (MoMoJuice, I think it was), and he has not done the same back.
If someone questions something you hold dear, it doesn't mean they're being disrespectful. Does it? If I question Jesus's divinity to a Christian, that's not being disrespectful, is it? If it is, then I'm afraid that disrespect is necessary. Or else we can never question or challenge other people's beliefs.
Paul never called Sifu Wong 'Wong' or anything like that. He asked some hard questions about Sifu's background in Taichichuan, and he did this from (I felt) a principled position. I agree that he got pretty close to rudeness or disrespect at times, in fact I could easily see it as disrespect, but the point is that he's someone without direct experience of Sifu Wong and he is asking pointed questions about the information he has gathered. Well, fair enough really.
We in Wahnam understand the importance of standing up for our beliefs courageously. In my opinion, Paul felt he was standing up for his beliefs and asking very relevant questions. That may have felt offensive to us (the same way a Christian might feel I was being offensive if I suggested that they have no sound factual basis for believing Jesus was divine - only an example, by the way) but that's not the same thing as being deliberately disrespectful.
Surely there's a place here on this forum for someone who asks those kinds of hard, challenging questions?
PS I've just seen Mark's post and I agree. We really don't need to feel defensive when we get critical people here. If we react aggressively or over-sensitively, it actually suggests we've got insecurities. We mustn't develop some institutional attitude that bans the right to question.
I also think that we sometimes do the same thing that we criticise other people for. I mean, when Paul was warned it was dangerous to question Kai, wasn't that rather like Sifu Stier suggesting Sifu Marcus should be careful - a veiled threat of physical violence? Similarly with MoMoJuice's aggression towards Paul. Just thoughts...
as always piers you hit the nail on the head, people must remember to take everything "with a pinch of salt", remember how you read something may not necessarily be how the person intented it, be sure how something was intended before you charge in making accusations, obviously if someone says "you talk out of your arse atat23, go and die in a hole" then they are trying to be offensive, i would personally cry and then report it to the mods, the crying bit is optional but dont rise to something like this and dont feed the trolls, unless the statement is like this i think we should all give each other the benefit of the doubt, peace and love people *group hug*
I think quite a few of the recent posts are competely missing the point, so I'll simplify.
Shaolin Wahnam is a school.
A school teaches things to their students
Shaolin Wahnam values respect and courtesy very highly, so we teach it.
If one of my students is intentionally rude or disrespectful to me, then they leave my school. As they progress, I extend that rudeness/disrespect to everyone around them, with the same consequences.
Kaitan/Paul is willing to come here and debate with us, so we thank him. While here, he demonstrates unacceptable behaviour, so we thank him again and use the example to pass on a lesson.
Anthony Sihing then gives an opportunity for students to demonstrate their Kungfu. You could also consider it as a test, or an exercise, regarding the individual students understanding of respect.
It has nothing to do with what questions are asked. It has nothing to do with whether or not we agree. It has everything to do with how we respond.
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and then report it to the mods, the crying bit is optional but dont rise to something like this and dont feed the trolls, unless the statement is like this i think we should all give each other the benefit of the doubt, peace and love people *group hug* 
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