Grappling & Kung-Fu--Myth & Reality

[Kaitain]

so far the following has come to light
1) you're not a grandmaster in JJ (i.e. no organisation has you as it's grandmaster) - being given the title by the master of your current system isn't really the same is it? Yet your article says that's what you are.

2) despite listing yourself as a BJJ instructor, you dont have a belt in it. In BJJ you dont test for belts, you're given them when the instructor thinks you're good enough. Yet your article states you are a master of 8 MA's and then lists them. How can you be a master of BJJ if you've never been awarded a belt in it?

3) martial arts hall of fame groups are ten a penny and meaningless. The one you mention is known for being founded by guys who wanted to promote one another to "Grandmaster" in this or that. e.g. Gary Dill being promoted to, I think, 8th dan in Aikijiitsu by a guy who promoted himself to 10th dan. Just because a 'name' is in there, doesnt mean anything does it? I mean, I can create a hall of fame and put Chuck, Gene, Bruce, et al in it - then get people to apply for it so they can be in there too. It certainly doesnt answer any of my questions.

4) the guy I asked about the IDM was a competitor there (he has photos of him competing if needed). He points out that unless something has changed in the last year (which he will find out), IDM works on weight, not belt, divisions.

5) what about the questions regarding Muay Thai? You say you're a 'guru' of Muay Thai, a title which I never heard when I trained it. Nor have people who train Muay Thai now. So who did you train under?

You've decided you won't discuss this anymore. Legitimate questions that I'm researching because of statements you have made about your personal MA history. To me this is pretty serious - Wahnam refers to your mastery of 8 styles that you then dropped to do Wahnam. But you never mastered BJJ, you dont even have a belt in it (which you definitely would have if you were of the required level - they would have given it to you.). You're not a Grandmaster of JJ, yet you are listed as such in that article - I would have less of a problem if it was clarified that your Sifu awarded you the title, but that would weaken the message wouldnt it? If I were in your position, I'd jump at the chance to provide evidence of my titles so that noone could ever question me again.

Organising a seminar with a 'name' does not validate anything - it certainly doesnt prove mastery in any of the arts listed (the target of my questioning). I organise about 6 seminars a year for my students with Willie Lim and John Ding, plus the other taijiquan teachers I know will ask me to come along with some students to seminars they organise. It's meaningless - the masters dont check my credentials, they check my cheque. I could be calling myself The Lord High Grandmaster Mayor of Brighton and they wouldnt know or give a s**t.

J-Say - Antonius called me out for making a snide comment about Kai and said I seemed to have a problem with him after I had said I was going to PM my questions to Kai. It seemed suitable to make it plain what my problem was - so far it's been borne out. I'm being criticised for asking questions.

Who am I? My name's Paul Doyle, I'm 31, I teach taijiquan in Brighton (www.eternal-internal.com), my taijiquan teacher is Steve Martin (not the comedian!) who I have trained with for 7 years, his teachers are John Ding (1st disciple of Ip Tai Tak, 1st disciple of YSC)and Willie Lim (holds high dan grades in Karate and TKD, now a CMC teacher - his master is highly rated in CMC circles - Yo Ching-hai a disciple of CMC). He also runs his own Wado Ryu karate school but was previously 3rd Dan under Steve Rowe. I also train at Zero Tolerance fight club (run by Sol Gilbert) in no-gi BJJ/sub-wrestling, taught by Roger (cant remember his surname) who is a BJJ purple belt. The class is not pure BJJ and no belts are given. I dont profess to be very good at BJJ/sub-wrestling at all - I train when I can and enjoy it immensely. Previously (4/5 years ago) I trained at Jaguar BJJ in Gravesend under one of Rickson's instructors (he was a registered coach in Rickson's organisation) for around 6 months. Previously I have trained Muay Thai (stopped in my late teens - 8 years or so), Wado Ryu (4-5 years), Escrima (seminars and training partners only), TKD (when I was 11, no idea what I did), Fencing (8 years). I can provide details of who I trained with and where if necessary. If you really feel the need to find me, you can come to my class as per my website - you dont need to get a hacker to look me up. However, since I dont claim mastery in anything at all and have merely asked questions about your statements of mastery, i fail to see the issue. I havent run my mouth, I havent slated you or your style (I made a clear statement to this effect) - I've asked questions about claims that you have made.

Paul

Moderators Note: Post edited to remove swearword

[Kaitain]

slight correction, Willie lim's master is Huang Sheng Shyan

[George]

Dear Paul (and Moderators,)

This is going off topic a little. Tai Sehing Kai's experience and qualifications are not specifically related to application of Kungfu counters to grappling attacks (although they are very valuable to us when learning and practicing these counters.)

Perhaps a new topic can be created to house all of the relevant posts? It will also have the added benefit of providing a convenient linking point should this subject arise in future (as it has done in the past.)

[Kaijet]

out of topic, admin. is free to open a new thread, "correct use of the forum "

Ok so far so good, but you still thinking it is not allowed to have some question in our forum, wrong, it is allowed. The way it will done is our intension. How a forum like this has to run. How people dealing with, how people write etc.
Mastertitles in different martial arts:
jap. > Sensei, from 5th Dan up > O-Sensei (Grandmaster)
Indonesia Pencak Silat: Guro
India Kalaripaijat: Guro
Eskrima: Guro
Thailand: Kru /Guro
Here you can see the southasian culture calling them same. Guro means in that cultures somebody who mastered some art and/or is teaching the art. The title is not nessesary given because of a test. A artist for example can get also called Guro by the puplic. Different from the Dan system in Japan were you have to make a test for each Dan. I have done all tests and thats why I get called Grandmaster if I like it or not. On the other hand years ago I create and teach my own system called (Jet Jutsu Do) a mixture of the best of all ever learned until know, Grandmaster for it?. I´m Senior Instructore under Richard S.Bustillo, the IMB system. Means 3 ranges (Weapon range Kali/Eskrima), middle range (Boxing, Muay Thai) close range (Wrestling/BJJ/Grappling). In his instructore seminars or regular classes in L.A., I trained under the named Masters more then 10 years. You have to master each range before you get any title in the IMB system. After travelling 5 years to Sumatra each year 3 month I made the test in Pencak Silat "Satria Muda". Grandmaster "Cacoy" Canete hand out me the Dan in Eskrima /Eskrido. If I left something I don´t care about because titles are titles and nothing else.
But for some people importend, why?, because then they start to beliefe the words this person has sayed? I would look for the meaning behind the words not behind the titles behind the words.
This kind of saying or anwering should be in the PM to keep the ego small.
For myself its more a shame to light yourself with that kind of presentation. Now I have done and it feels no good.

[Darryl]

Hi Paul,

I was discussing this thread with Mark (Appleford) last night. I've come across people with your attitude before, so I know you don't feel that you are being rude or insulting, just honest and forthwright. I do think that you are missing a fundamental point, but I don't know if you will understand it. I'll write it anyway, both because I'm an optimist and because this is a discussion forum .

The main difference in the whole 'grappler/reality based approach' and the 'internal martial arts' is in the individual students limited perception. The main form of redemption is to admit that they don't know what they are talking about.

I meet and train with Kai on a regular basis. I do so because of the skills that he has and - far more importantly for me - for the moral character that he displays. I'm not impressed by titles, medals, belts, bruises or scars. When I first read Kai's article, I was far more impressed with his views on morality than I was with his fight record (which is still impressive). When I met him, I was equally impressed with his skills. Since he had a deep understanding of both sides of the fence, I listen to him when he says something.

[Kaitain]

Kai - thank you for your response and the information you provided. Some points I would like to make:

1) being a teacher in JKD and therefore having a JKD instructor level in Muay Thai, BJJ, etc does not make you a master of those arts does it? A master of JKD is not a master of every art incorporated into the overall system, nor should he claim to be. "Take what's good, discard the rest" etc

2) training in seminars with someone is not the same as training under someone. I could say I was "trained by" lots of big name martial artists because I've been to seminars they have run. I don't do that because I think it is misleading.

3) the fact that you had your own system is impressive, but it should also be made clear that it is your own system.

You say titles are not important, but they were important enough to list in the article that students of Wahnam point to when they are asked for evidence of certain things within the school. The fact is that some of those titles aren't strictly true or authentic. It would be far better to list the things that you have achieved and leave it at that, rather than create a misleading picture of yourself that doesnt do you any favours. For example, referring to yourself as a JJ Grandmaster is misleading - better to state the belt/dan you achieved in the art and leave it at that.

I am happy to leave the discussion where it is, you've answered my questions to a point that satisfies what I was seeking.

Kind regards,

Paul

[Kaitain]

Darryl - I entirely understand your point, and I do hold my hands up to being a little antagonistic at times. I feel that some of the responses I received merited a little frostiness, but i hope that's in the past now.

I have never posted here doubting Kai's skills - I have tried my best to make it clear that I had an issue with the titles claimed and that I sought clarification of those titles. As I just posted, I find some of them to be misleading and unnecessary - at least Kai had the balls to come out and explain exactly what he meant. I would hope in future that he would change the description of his MA past to make it less misleading.

My only point of contention would be the "fight record" - without evidence of such it is always hearsay and I will treat it the same way that I treat any unsubstantiated claim to a fight record, with scepticism. It isnt that important anyway - my teacher's teacher John happily tells everyone that he has never had a fight in his life and intends to stay that way. He still has plenty to teach me and having 'played around' with him I am happy that he has "the goods". Willie Lim, on the other hand, loved to fight in Kyokushinkai days and has just as much to teach me. I'm more afraid of John.

I take your point regarding the sport/RBSD crowd versus the more traditional internal arts. I believe there's room for both views in the same person - i.e. I dont dismiss certain ideas that IMA's espouse, I just remain sceptical until I've felt them or can reproduce them myself. I then take that knowledge into sparring and make sure I can make it work. I only talk about and teach what I can do, when asked about 'the other stuff' I just tell my students that they can talk to John when they see him. I'd like to say that this was all my own idea, but my teacher taught me to take this approach.

The only time I have outright dismissed something was when an IMA guy told me he could do something, but then couldnt make it work on me. That's my litmus test for everything - "show me". There are things that John and Willie do that I cant understand, but they can explain it to a point by showing me. John's teacher, Master Ip, used to say "Bit Da Bit Gau" - not to hit is not to teach. Another teacher of mine said "to feel is to know".

Anyway - I hope that clarifies my position somewhat.

Regards,

Paul

[MoMoJuice]

Paul,

I havent disrespected your art, I havent disrespected your students, I havent disrespected your training.

hmmm, interesting...The discussion below is at emptyFlower's forum, it's about the Full Contact Tai Chi Chuan Tournament that Siheng Robin participated in. (Date: April 26th)

Finally, Tai Chi in full contact fight

Finally someone tried using Tai Chi in a full contact fight

http://www.zenergyarts.com/videos/ThrustKick.gif

Discussion of this:

http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4748

That guy is demonstrating at the same event as me this Saturday - think I'll have a look. If you go to the source site and check out the clips of Master Wong then you might get some deja vu - we 'discussed' some of them before in less than favourable terms.

Did you get a chance to meet up with the guy? Can he really kick ass ?

no he cant - I found out that he's been training for 2 years and is the UK instructor for Wahnam. Interesting huh? I didnt speak to him as my demonstration was during his workshop and after the demonstration I then had to do my workshop.

Someone who was there told me that he was lucky that he got paired with someone who couldnt box. Even so he got hit in the face a fair few times.

I wonder what is your motive coming here, especially that you joined the WahNam forum on April 27th, the same day you did your bad mouthing (there) and a day after the discussion of the Full Contact Tai Chi on the emptyFlower forum.

Are you so sure after training for two years he can't fight? Are you sure he "is the UK instructor for Wahnam"? Do you even know what you are talking about?

He used to train with Dan Doherty's guy in Brighton but then did the Wahnam thing instead, which makes no sense to me.

Instead of talking crap, why can't you be man enough to ask Siheng Robin directly about the reason he left Dan Docherty's school for Shaolin WahNam? Don't you think he might have found something better?

my taijiquan teacher is Steve Martin (not the comedian!) who I have trained with for 7 years, his teachers are John Ding (1st disciple of Ip Tai Tak, 1st disciple of YSC)

Since your lineage is from Grandmaster Yang Sau-Chung, then you must know that Chu King-Hung is a disciple of his (trained with YSC for 26 years). That makes him a kung fu brother of Ip Tai Tak.

Since Master Dan Docherty seems highly regarded by you, well at least you think his school is better than Shaolin WahNam, you should know what he thinks of your lineage, the Yang Style. In his exact words to Chu King-Hung: "I told him that I had never seen any Yang stylist here or in the Far East who could use Tai Chi effectively as a martial art and that I felt entitled to say so."

The full article about the encounter with Chu King-Hung can be read here:

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/a_master_calls.html

What do you have to say about that?

My core issue is he's a 23 year old UK instructor on the back of two years taiji training with a teacher he sees a few times a year. And it shows.

Obviously, as you so eliquintly put it, is "skin off your nose". Siheng Robin has two years in WahNam Tai Chi Chuan, not in Tai Chi training. Get your facts straight, and like I said, if you don't know, better to just ask. Your comment about his age shows your shallow way of thinking, just because you are 31 years old, and have no idea how to use Tai Chi Chuan in a tournament or a fight, does not mean everyone is like you. Just because you feel you have to learn from other martial arts to "improve" on your Tai Chi Chuan, does not mean everyone is like you.

To be honest though, given the videos of the master of the system, anyone in the system is going to have problems.

LoooL, that is really funny. I'm sorry, I think the problem is with you, not Sifu, our system, or our students. I'm not sure which exact videos you are talking about, but I have to say that most of the sparring videos are by WahNam students who have learned for less than a year, some even for only a few days! You might not believe it, but it's the truth.

To be honest though, I think after 7 years of Tai Chi Chuan training, you have wasted your time. I understand it's a hard thing to swallow, denial is virtue sometimes.

I am not affiliated with Wahnam, but in my Wudang Kungfu School, our combat training methodology is more or less similar. It is very effective and has been the traditional way of practicing.

Also, congrats to the Tai Chi Chuan guy who fought full contact. Many Tai Chi fighters I see today usually just fight and bounce about in boxing stances. Where did the Tai Chi Chuan go?

He is obviously performing "Cross Hands Thrust Kick" in that animated picture.

I'm not sure who DeeJay is on that forum, but I'll register there to thank him. Thank you DeeJay, congrats on finding a real martial art school to practice and learn from

The fact that you and the Wahnam guys insist that fighting must look like the form's outward appearance is very telling. Good luck to you. The fact that his school have him as a taiji instructor when he's only been training for two years is equally telling.

Of course in a fight anything can happen, the forms can be modified to suit the situation. But in general they would still look similar to the actual form. If not, then why do we even practice forms at all? The fact that you can not use forms for fighting is very telling. The fact that you don't use proper stances when fighting is very telling. The fact that you have no idea of "internal force" is very telling.

Enjoy your training. Got skin?!?

MoMo.

[Tapio Raevaara]

Yet another practical reminder of how lucky and privileged we are having found our way to Shaolin Wahnam. Thank you, MoMo!

[Mark Blohm]

Excellent investigative work, Momo.

Hey Tapio,

We are indeed lucky

Mark

[Jamie Robson]

Hello!

Sorry I've been away from the Forum. I've been busy training and sorting out some personal problems.

Kaitain -

You have started a very interesting and useful discussion.

However, this is the Shaolin Wahnam Forum. We kindly allow the public to participate. Your approach to Tai Sipak Kai is not acceptable. I have never seen or heard a Master of any style or system whether it's Yoga or Muay Thai disrespect other people (Masters or Students).

The fact is, it does not matter 'who' Kai is. He is a person who deserves respect.

Your mistakes -

Safety First -
You are not displaying safety first. For all you know, Kai is a world class fighter. You continue to disrespect him. If you meet, it may not be an enjoyable experience. However, if you were polite, you may enjoy conversation over dinner one day.

Dantien -
It is clear as your posts go on, your chi is rising. The energy from your words are frustrated, lack direction and have no foundation.

Open Heart -
If your actions were from an open heart, you would have developed friends or at least respect from other Artists. I can sense from your writing that your opinions come from a weak place. I do not enjoy reading your posts from a chi kung perspective.

To summarise -

Do not continue your rude attitude to Kai. Take a break and consolidate your thoughts. Come back and speak from your heart, with an open mind.

Respect

[chris3212]

Helo Everyone,

I also checked out the forum MoMo included in his post yesterday. And I also read the thread MoMo has mentioned and was pretty confused. Why? Im not sure. Even though I am not a student of Wahnam I felt the need to raise this issue, but decided that patience would allow me to see how this panned out first. But MoMo got there first so what the hell.

Sifu Paul,

You criticised Wahnams methodology yet you have practiced grappling arts to try and make your Tai Chi a "whole" art. Surely you realise that your art isnt as "adequate" as you think it is? And IMO opinion Wahnam seems more complete than your system sounds.

As for Sifu Robins performance in the fight a few points need to be considered.

1. They were wearing gloves and "headgear", this completely takes Qin Na out of the picture. And I wonder how much preperation of wearing gloves Sifu Robin had?

2. Only those who saw the fight could give an accurate opinion on who would have won in a "real" fight. Internal force comes into this nicely, and has you dont seem to have experienced what this is (and Im guessing probably 99% of the people their hadnt also), how can you make an accurate assesment? Do you know who got the first hit in? Do you know how powerful Sifu Robins internal force is?

The most important point in my view is;

3. He used Taijiquan patterns. He didnt bounce around, he didnt throw boxing combos. He upheld his art with courage and determintation and that demands respect.

And lets face it, when that guy is 60 and someone tries to mug him he probably wont be able to defend himself. Im pretty sure Sifu Robin could .

On the defence of TCMA (which you dont seem to have much knowledge on);

I went to Guildford yesterday to visit an old friend who practices Wudang Kung Fu (seems to be more Wudang schools than I realised). He uses the horse stance with his upper leg parralel to the ground and hes unbelievably fast shifting through all of his stances. Hes has been taught three new forms which he showed me (Mantis, Crane and something else) and he was told to practice them for a year and decide which to specialise in. I can already see it will be Mantis. Anyway this guy I know isnt the best in his school, but he has been training a year less than me, about the same amount of hours into training as I had in my first two years (this is his second year) and we are pretty even. Whats my weakest point? My high stances.

Whats my second weakest? Ground work. Yeh I was shocked too. I immediately thought of this thread. I used a takedown that I had made up myself a few years ago (then I found most schools use it ) and as I was going to strike him whilst he was falling, something my dad taught me, he used a technique which he calls "Fallen Mantis opens up stupid Human"* and I was staring directly down at a rather nasty looking hooked hand. I got him to show me the groundwork he knew and it was simple, easy and lethal. I asked about the lethality of some of the techniques and he said that his styles "forte" was fighting whilst standing, "so if someone gets me down, I make sure as hell I get up as soon as possible".**

So a traditional chinese art, that utilises internal force, low stances and ground work that isnt Wahanm Tajiquan or Shaolin.

So there you go Sifu Paul a mordern day fighter that has practiced an incorporated style beaten by a TCMA exponent. (He won narrowly ).

Best wishes all,

Chris

*Yes he made the name up . He said it reminded him of someone thats prodding a Mantis at gets a rather painful suprise!

** The school is quite small and everyone spends alot of time together, they thus are able to tell who is a good person who has high moral standards. These people are the ones they teach the lethal applications to. ANd only if they believe the students are responsible enough.

P.S. Dear Jamie, hope the problem resolves itself satisfactorily (sp?) Best wishes.

[joko]

Dear MoMo,

Excellent!

Thanks from your classmate,
Joko

[chris3212]

Some interesting information that has come to light:
"It is very interesting how these people emphasize how their system is somehow
more "original" than other systems, although the facts are that Sifu Wong
invented 2/3 of the 18 Lohan hands Chi Kung movements (see:
http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showpos...postcount=Cool and he has not
learned his Taijiquan from any particular teacher, but from books (see Answer 2:
http://shaolin.org/answers/ans04b/jul04-1.html)"

I'm lost for words.

What to say to this?

Does Sifu Wong's 18 Lohan Hands work? Yes or he wouldnt teach it.

Does Wahnam Taijiquan work? Yes or he wouldnt teach it.

It seems that people nowadays are too ignorant to look back in history. Didnt past Masters "make up" new techniques and stances. Even if Sifu Wong had made up every Tai Chi Chuan pattern in Wahnam Taijiquan, he has tested it. Its combat effectiveness has been proven. Is there anything wrong with that?

As for what you all claim to practice. Id say you didnt practice Taijiquan. If none of the people on that forum believe in internal force, they arent practicing an internal art.

Oh and the inward pointing lead foot in bow arrow stance? You wouldnt (as I dont) understand

I am not affiliated with Wahnam in any shape or form. Everything in that message is my opinion. Wahnam will no doubt make it stance clear.

Chris

[George]

Nice post MoMo (and Chris)