Unexpected Lessons

[Michael Durkin]

Maybe you can test your spiritual growth instead?

Excellent suggestion. And also an "unexpected lesson" I'm trying to explore. That of moving along.

Shaolin Wahnam welcomes Sifu Stier to stay. I do too as I wouldn't want to miss the opportunity of missing the good points of Sifu Stier. So I'm trying to move past the bad points he often shows.

I have enjoyed some things Sifu Stier has brought to our forum. To name one, Sifu Stiers thread on Chinese Art Works. So by my moving along, rather than repeat my distaste in a circular fashion about Sifu Stiers behaviour which he'll continue to refute, I'm going to try and enjoy the best I can from Sifu Stier on other topics.

That doesn't mean to say I can't reap many benefits from reading and contributing to the current threads like the discussion on Yielding for example. It also doesn't mean to say that Shaolin Wahnam's valid summary of recent events should be ignored! Or that Sifu Stiers behaviour is acceptable.

[Andrew]

Michael (Udel of course -- not Durkin ),

At your request, I have removed your previous user title of "Pan Gu Shengong Instructor". I assume this means you have stopped your association with that organisation in this case. I sincerely hope, though, that you continue with some form of Chi Kung --- it will help you so much.

Back to your postings.

You have read my words but obviously you have not read my words. I at no point attacked Sifu Stier. I stated my honest opinion regarding what I have witnessed of his level and depth of knowledge. I never disputed his education nor academic qualifications but merely used a metaphoric comparison to make my explanation clearer. I am quite sure everyone except you saw that extremely clearly. And now I am also absolutely sure that your Chinese firewall is not the problem.

Although I in no way doubt Sifu Stier's educational credentials, I have also not seen any evidence of them. The quotes made elsewhere about Sifu Stier's credentials and experience etc. were actually made by or on behalf of Sifu Stier. Please, Sifu Stier, do not get me wrong because I absolutely do not wish to dispute your academic credentials. And to be honest, they are not relevant to the discussion at hand --- just as my academic qualifications and professional experience is not relevant. Sifu Stier is obviously a highly intelligent man with a lot of life experience too.

Michael, you really must calm down some and start to read the words which are so clearly written. Please stop trying so hard to find things in them which are clearly (for everyone else reading them) not there. You are damaging your reputation and, I'm quite sure, causing Sifu Stier unnecessary discomfort.

In fact, reading your most recent posts I could justifiably accuse you of creating dispute between Sifu Stier and Shaolin Wahnam where there is none. I made it extremely clear in my last posts on the strategy and tactics thread how I feel about Sifu Stier. Please go back and read them again but this time with a clear mind and open heart. It will benefit yourself and avoid Sifu Stier and Shaolin Wahnam having to solve problems which do not exist.

I wonder why you find it so necessary to cause antagonism to both Sifu Stier and Shaolin Wahnam. I also wonder how you consider your recent posts to be anything other than trouble making for Sifu Stier and us. What is your personal vendetta (as you call it) and why have you found it necessary to start it?

Please calm down before you post your thoughts.

Andrew

[Michael Udel]

Invading my privacy

At your request, I have removed your previous user title of "Pan Gu Shengong Instructor". I assume this means you have stopped your association with that organisation in this case. I sincerely hope, though, that you continue with some form of Chi Kung --- it will help you so much.

My request to remove my title was a private communication between me and the forum administrator. If asking my reasons for making the request was part of your job you could have done so in private. There is no call for you to speculate about my reasons publicly in this thread. I was going to post a note in my thread in the Meet the Members portion of the forum to let everyone know that it had been done at my request, but since you have decided to discuss my private communications publicly, you have saved me the trouble of making that post, and again abused your authority as a moderator.

I am still a Pan Gu Shengong Instructor, so your assumption is in error. Do not concern yourself with my qigong practice, it is none of your business. Your sarcasm is not appreciated.

What is your personal vendetta (as you call it) and why have you found it necessary to start it?

I have no personal vendetta whatsoever. I have repeatedly stated the reason I am responding to the posts by you and Sifus Korahais & Santer are because I would like this forum to return to the status quo, without personal attacks against Sifu Stier or anyone. It is a request made not only by me, but by several Shaolin Wahnam students and other forum members, not to mention Sifu Stier, a respected member of this online community.

You believe comparing a man of Sifu Stier's educational background and professional status as a Doctor of Oriental Medicine to someone who has not even graduated elementary school is not an insult is bogus because he is also a professional martial arts teacher, and so the metaphor is a direct attack on his professional reputation. Just because you use a metaphor to disguise your insult does not change the obvious insulting tone and meaning of your words.

Your continuing to mock me about the firewall just shows that discourteous behavior is second nature to you.

Best wishes,
Michael

[Andrew]

Michael,

Please re-open your heart and clear your mind. Please read the words I and others are writing and not the words you would like to see to instigate a fight between Sifu Stier and Shaolin Wahnam instructors. I still don't understand why you have become so blood-thirsty. But I will not ask you otherwise you will accuse me again of abusing my authority.

I genuinely wish you well and this is why I said I hope you would continue with your Chi Kung practice. And my noting the reason for change of your user title was to avoid people thinking it was done as a tactic to belittle you. Now you have succeeded in belittling yourself.

Andrew

[Michael Udel]

Good wishes

I genuinely wish you well…
Now you have succeeded in belittling yourself.

Dear Sifu Andrew,

Perhaps you can see a legitimate source for confusion. If you genuinely wish me well, as I do you, please be more careful of your words and how you use them. I am grateful for your attention to this matter.

Best wishes,
Michael Udel

[Antonius]

Dear Michael,

Words are problematic, partially because they are filtered by the reader's own mental and emotional state. I strongly urge you to look at your own mental emotional state. It is obvious that your thoughts are being affected by your emotions. What's worse is that you don't seem to be aware of this.

Andrew said:

At your request, I have removed your previous user title of "Pan Gu Shengong Instructor". I assume this means you have stopped your association with that organisation in this case. I sincerely hope, though, that you continue with some form of Chi Kung --- it will help you so much.

To which you responded:

I am still a Pan Gu Shengong Instructor, so your assumption is in error. Do not concern yourself with my qigong practice, it is none of your business. Your sarcasm is not appreciated.

This is worrying, Michael! I did not take Andrew's post to be sarcastic. I took it as a sincere wish of good will. The important question is, why did you take it as sarcasm, and respond so emotionally?

I don't mean to patronize you, Michael. I really don't. If it is arrogant of me to presume that I might be able to help you, then I apologize. Nevertheless, I will say this: I hope that you can learn some unexpected lessons from the recent discussions. I mean that sincerely, and from the heart.

Best,

[Michael Udel]

Dear Sifu Anthony,

The important question is, why did you take it as sarcasm, and respond so emotionally?

I took it as sarcasm for the clear reason quoted in my response:

What is your personal vendetta (as you call it) and why have you found it necessary to start it?
You are damaging your reputation
Now you have succeeded in belittling yourself.
I genuinely wish you well…

If you are genuinely concerned about a person, you do not question their reputation and accuse them of having a vendetta in the same breath as wishing them well. The statements do not go together, and demonstrate sarcasm.

You are filtering my response through your own emotional and mental state. I responded directly, calmly, and firmly, and without escalation, to Sifu Barnett’s statements, which were indicative of his tone in the post, and dictated my response. Compare the tone of your message to Sifu Andrew's, and you’ll find there is quite a difference.

I’m very glad to see that you and Sifu Barnett are now falling over each other in your concern for my own well-being and your praise for Sifu Stier, both of which I am certain are completely sincere. Please continue showing respect for Sifu Stier.

In regards your to your offer to help me, although I appreciate your concern, your suggestion that I examine my “mental emotional state” is out of place and unwarranted. It is always difficult to know, when offering help, how it will be interpreted when that help is unasked for, and your offer of assistance is extremely generous, but I’m doing just fine, thanks all the same. Your inquiries about my “mental emotional state” do sound patronizing to my ear, so let’s leave them out.

Best wishes,
Michael

[Markus Kahila]

Michael (Udel),

Do you think it might be possible that you have misinterpreted Sifu Anthony's and Sifu Andrew's intentions at one point or another?

[Antidote]

Hi everyone

I'm reading this tread since the beggining and others similars and I find some "Expected Lessons".

Maybe I will be a litle harsh, but like Sifu Antonius, sometimes we need to be direct and authentic to our core and say the truth even if it hurts, if we feel that will benefit the other person.

I practice Traditional Martial arts since I was a child and I am now 24 . I joined the Wanham family 3 years ago and I learn directly from Sifu Wong in 8regional courses. I'm gratefull to be in this family, it is indeed a Blessing. I'm proud to be in this Elite Team, a team that practices what the majority thinks it's impossible and doesn't exist : Genuine Shaolin Chi Kung

This last treads and discussions between Sifu Stier , Michael and the Shaolin Instructors reveal us one thing that we all know, the degradation of the martial arts in these days.

In the majoraty of the schools we don't have even a glimpse of the warriors of the past. I see masters behaving liked spoiled childs, who doesn't stand an open critic to their kung fu, and arrogantly defends themselfs with their martial curriculum.

Show us courage and integrity , not vanity and fear

We are the Warriors of our time, we practice Warriors arts, we should not behave like intelectualized street fighters.
The martial warrior should not be some sort of scared bully, posturing like some King Kong in charge of the universe, nor a Mr. Nice Guy always safe, cooperative and sharing. He simple lives from his deepest core, fearlessly giving his gifts, bound neither by outer convention nor inner cowardice.

Analysing the behaviour of the modern masters we undestand and confirm the low level of the arts these days.

I support Antonius and all the Shaolin intructors in this case, not because they are my seniors, but because they give us all a glimpse of the true warriors.
Respectfull and Compassionate they stand free and courageus, pointing the fingers to what they feel is wrong.
Thank you all to show the martial world what Integrity and Autenticity is all about.


Antidote

[Maxime]

Hello all,

Words are problematic, partially because they are filtered by the reader's own mental and emotional state.

On a general note, I think Anthony Sihing has raised an extremely important point here. Many of us, if looking back to our past behaviours and relationship (with our family, friends, co-workers, etc...) can be inspired and realize the reasons we failed to successfully understand or explain relevant points to (or as) readers. The same, obviously, applies with 'talking' relationships, live discussions.

Dear Michael , please allow me to remind you that Sifu Stier is a grown man, father of five children, reputated teacher and healer. I don't think he needs your 'help' to defend himself (if he really had to anyway, which I believe is not the case, as he is not 'attacked'). It is honourable from you to feel the urge to 'defend' him because you might think he is a 'victim', but I sincerely think you are putting too much emotion in it. I am sure my seniors are not trying to mock you with sarcasm and are honests in their comments. When Andrew Sihing wishes you good, for example, you can be assured that he really thinks so. When Anthony Sihing says he is not trying to patronize you, he really ain't. Don't forget that Shaolin Wahnam members are following the 10 Shaolin Laws, with their Heart.

Please think twice. You already have trained under the tutelage of Sifu Wong and with Shaolin Wahnam members. Honestly, in May 2005, haven't you found yourself with one of the most loving and careful bunch of people you had never seen? I have already met some of the people you trained with (5 at least); so I know you had some fantastic spiritual time there. Please keep that in mind when reading the Shaolin Wahnam members posts. These posts are not meant to be rude or disrespectful, they are written by gentle people with caring Heart.

Michael, I apologize too if you find my post patronizing; I certainly dare not, because I know I have a long way to go...

Take care,

Maxime

[Antonius]

It is honourable from you to feel the urge to 'defend' him because you might think he is a 'victim', but I sincerely think you are putting too much emotion in it.

Actually, I don't see it as honorable. I think it is potentially dangerous. It is obvious to me, as Andrew mentioned in another thread, that Michael (Udel) has been attempting to instigate a fight between Shaolin Wahnam (specifically me and Andrew) and Sifu Stier. Michael was quick to explain how I could travel to meet Sifu Stier, suggesting that I meet him on a Friday and "push hands" with him on a Saturday (ignoring the fact that I practice Shaolinquan and do not practice Tui Shou). He even suggested that my asking for a friendly sparring match (as opposed to a real fight) was sign of my lack of confidence. I'm guessing he may attempt to paint this as further sign of my lack of confidence.

I tried to make this point earlier, but I don't think it stuck. Make no mistake. Sifu Stier and I are warriors. I cannot speak for Sifu Stier, but I think we will agree on this point: We are not afraid to fight, but we prefer not to. We prefer to sip tea.

Quite frankly, I see Michael Udel's actions as potentially dangerous, not noble. I had hoped he would take a step back from the forum and clear his head, but it doesn't seem like that has happened. His venom continues.

[Maxime]

Actually, I don't see it as honorable. I think it is potentially dangerous. It is obvious to me, as Andrew mentioned in another thread, that Michael (Udel) has been attempting to instigate a fight between Shaolin Wahnam (specifically me and Andrew) and Sifu Stier.

I agree. I am sorry I did'nt make it clear in my previous post. I was just trying to say that if Michael first intention was to 'save the victim' it would have been honorable (like defending the weak --yet there is no weak to defend here--); of course, this statement is irrelevant because of Michael's passionate (and potentially dangerous) behaviour (I wrote 'you are putting too much emotion in it'), and because of the fact that Sifu Stier is not bullied by anyone here ('I don't think he needs your 'help' to defend himself (if he really had to anyway, which I believe is not the case, as he is not 'attacked'). I failed in my post. Now I get up.

Michael was quick to explain how I could travel to meet Sifu Stier, suggesting that I meet him on a Friday and "push hands" with him on a Saturday

Yes, I was shocked by this statement. I thought (and still think) Michael went too far here. Indeed, such statement is dangerous and unfortunately a proof that Michael attempted to instigate a fight (Michael, was it really your intention? )

He even suggested that my asking for a friendly sparring match (as opposed to a real fight) was sign of my lack of confidence.

This is also an inappropriate statement from Michael. And dangerous. Trying to put oil on the fire.

Quite frankly, I see Michael Udel's actions as potentially dangerous, not noble. I had hoped he would take a step back from the forum and clear his head, but it doesn't seem like that has happened. His venom continues

Maybe Michael thinks he is doing good, and thinks his actions are noble. Nevertheless the numerous posts in contradiction with him should incite him to 'take a step back'. I must admit that I am surprised at Michael's behaviour. His posts are not helping to solve the problem. Maybe he will calm down a little bit and try to view things more clearly. It is difficult when your emotions are interfering with your mental, thus affecting your judgement.

Thank you for your crystal clear comments (not like mine... but I work on improving )

Maxime

[Michael Udel]

to clarify

“Defending” Sifu Stier was not my explicit intention, but only the result of my trying to keep the forum free of dedicating entire threads to personal attacks, such as the Unexpected Lessons thread, which Sifu Korahais began with by stating that ad hominem attacks are good for the forum, and the Debate Between Marcus and Sifu Stier on Yielding thread (later renamed to Discussion on Yielding), a debate which was never agreed upon by Sifu Stier. My explicit intention was to facilitate the continued excellence and harmonious operation of this discussion forum. Sifu Stier doesn’t need me to defend him, as Maxime pointed out, but I now know how Sifu Stier feels when attempting to respond to multiple people simultaneously, and it is not an enviable position.

I certainly wasn’t trying to instigate a fight between Sifu Stier and Shaolin Wahnam, or between Sifu Stier and Sifu Korahais. I regret very much that anyone interpreted my words this way. My suggestion about Sifu Korahais visiting for a demonstration on Friday and returning a day or two later was simply a matter of logistics to solve the video dilemma. I had no intention to suggest, and I used no words to suggest, that there should be any actual fighting. To answer the complaint about using the term “push hands”, it’s simply the one with which I am familiar. I have seen “push hands” and “cross hands” used here, and some of the other Shaolin Wahnam Instructors have used these same terms. Sifu Korahais’ martial arts experience is very wide, and I didn’t know that he didn’t practice push hands.

Dear Markus Kahila, thank you for your comments. Yes, it’s possible that I misinterpreted some of the posts. As I mentioned, responding to multiple people is difficult.

Dear Maxime, I appreciate your message and don’t find it patronizing. I would like to believe that Sifu Korahais wishes me well, and I was as polite and friendly as possible in my last post, but now he accuses me of using venom, which makes it difficult to understand his true intentions. In one post he offers help, and when I politely decline, he accuses me of being venomous.

Best wishes,
Michael Udel

[Sifu Stier]

Dear Michael:

I for one admire your courage to speak out from your heart about the unfairnesses and injustices you perceive. Although I did not solicit your defense here in any way, I feel a great debt of gratitude to you for the moral and ethical support.

It is quite true, and a well known fact among my family and close associates, that I don't need anyone to protect me, which is why none of the Shen Men Tao Masters, Initiate Instructors, or rank and file students have rushed to my rescue. Especially since I have faced this situation alone, your bold efforts have been deeply appreciated. My Salutation goes out to you with great respect!

It requires considerable inner strength and personal power to defend against multiple antagonists and adversaries everyday....as you have no doubt also realized by now. Imagine how intimidating it must feel for others who are not so blessed with the energy and self-confidence needed to right the wrongs which they perceive in their world. I consider it a testimonial to the power and truth of our words that so many have worked so hard to discredit them.

You are a good man, Michael, and I am proud to count you among my valued friends! I sincerely hope that I will one day meet you in person at long last.

Warm regards ~

Sifu Stier

[Charles David]

Dear Sifu Stier,


You wrote:

My Salutation goes out to you with great respect!

This reminds me of a great Neitzche quote:

"The esteemer is the new artist"

It was in this spirit that I began this thread on Lao Tzu which can be summarized in the following sentence: The pig sees only the pig, the buddha sees only the buddha.

I know, from experience, that if we are looking at other's mistakes then we will bring out those same mistakes in ourselves. If we look at the good things in others, we will bring out the good in ourselves.

I would far rather spend my time regarding you as one who is earnestly striving everyday to be the best person that he can be and who earnestly wishes the same for others.

For my part, I will do my best to always look for the best in you (and all beings), and to esteem you to the best of my ability.



With Shaoln Salute,