Chung Tzu's Buddha & Pig

[Charles David]

Dear Sifu, Dear Friends and Family,


When I was growing up, I was lucky enough to discover some stories about the great Taoist sage, Chuang Tzu. I would like now to share a story with you that has always meant a great deal to me and which I continue to learn from. Those of you who know the story better than me, forgive me if my memory has made some alterations in the years since I read it.


Chuang Tzu was enjoying some fresh air with his young student, the prince. His exceptionally carefree and peaceful nature began to irritate the prince, who then decided he was going to try and ruffle his teachers' feathers.

"You're a moron" he told his teacher.
"You really think so?" asked Chuang Tzu.
"Yes I do", said the prince.
"That's funny, because I think you are exceptionally brilliant" said Chuang Tzu.
"Really?" asked the student.
"Yes" said the Sage.

The student began to swell with pride at being so complimented and prompted the great teacher to continue:

"But Master, why do you say I'm brilliant?"

"Don't you know the old saying: 'The pig sees only the pig, the Buddha sees only the Buddha?"'

At which point the prince became quite angry.

***

I would very much enjoy if anyone would like to to share their stories about Chuang Tzu.


With Deep Gratitude For The Dharma,

[Tapio Raevaara]

I love Chuang Tzu's (Zhuagzi) skill of dressing wisdom in humour!

Master Dongguo asked Zhuangzi, "This thing called the Way - where does it exist?"

Zhuangzi said, "There's no place it doesn't exist."

"Come," said Master Dongguo, "you must be more specific!"

"It is in the ant."

"As low a thing as that?"

"It is in the panic grass."

"But that's lower still!"

"It is in the tiles and shards."

"How can it be so low?"

"It is in the piss and shit."

(Zhuangzi - Basic Writings, translated by Burton Watson, Columbia University Press)

[Chiahua]

Zhuangzi is one of my favorites to read! I look forward to more great stories in this thread! I'll post some of my favorites later....

[atat23]

I saw this thread the other day and wondered who it was about, im sure i've heard of chuang tzu before just never actually read any of his work, i read the story charles shared with us and thought it was brilliant so i went and found some internet resources to read some of his work, i found this site:

http://web.archive.org/web/20041009155819/users.compaqnet.be/cn111132/chuang-tzu/

i havent read alot of it but i did find this quote that i liked:

There is a beginning. There is a not yet beginning to be a beginning. There is a not yet beginning to be a not yet beginning to be a beginning. There is being. There is nonbeing. There is a not yet beginning to be nonbeing. There is a not yet beginning to be a not yet beginning to be nonbeing. Suddenly there is nonbeing. But I do not know, when it comes to nonbeing, which is really being and which is nonbeing. Now I have just said something. But I don't know whether what I have said has really said something or whether it hasn't said something.

thanks for introducing me to chuang tzu

KIR
Ryan

edit: i forgot to ask a question, what are the "ten thousand things" he keeps referring to?, i must admit i dont get some of his referrences

[Tapio Raevaara]

Hello, Ryan!

Looking at that link you posted it seems to be the very same translation that I have in my book (see above), although in the book the names are in pinyin and it only contains a portion of all those writings (thus the "basic writings"). I think I have to take a closer look when I have some time. Thanks!

There is a beginning. There is a not yet beginning to be a beginning. There is a not yet beginning to be a not yet beginning to be a beginning. There is being. There is nonbeing. There is a not yet beginning to be nonbeing. There is a not yet beginning to be a not yet beginning to be nonbeing. Suddenly there is nonbeing. But I do not know, when it comes to nonbeing, which is really being and which is nonbeing. Now I have just said something. But I don't know whether what I have said has really said something or whether it hasn't said something.

Simple, direct and effective, eh?

edit: i forgot to ask a question, what are the "ten thousand things" he keeps referring to?, i must admit i dont get some of his referrences

Neither do I. My personal interpretation has always been that it's a poetic way to say "everything", but I might be totally off. Knowing some classical Chinese could be helpful here.

[atat23]

Neither do I. My personal interpretation has always been that it's a poetic way to say "everything", but I might be totally off. Knowing some classical Chinese could be helpful here.

thank you tapio, i was thinking along the same lines myself but thought i'd ask in case it was more of a specific reference, i was sort of relating it to a number that would be too big to count or just alot of "things", never thought of "everything", ill think of this when im reading more of his work

thanks alot

Ryan

[Maxime]

Ten Thousands... more or less

(Dao De Jing, chapter 42)

dao sheng yi,
yi sheng er,
er sheng san,
san sheng wan wu.

Tao creates One.
One creates Two.
Two creates Three.
Three creates the Ten Thousand kinds.
(or in other words, Three gives birth to all things)

Or,

Ultimate Reality creates the cosmos.
The cosmos creates Yin and Yang.
Yin and Yang rule Heaven, Earth and Man.
(or in other words, the positive, negative and neutral charges of energy).
Heaven, Earth and Man produces all phenomena.

But... what creates Ultimate Reality?

Maxime

[Chiahua]

I think "10,000 things" could refer to many ideas. I tend to think of "10,000 things" as phenomena.

[Maxime]

Hello Chia-Hua

I think "10,000 things" could refer to many ideas. I tend to think of "10,000 things" as phenomena.

"10.000 things" could refer to a symbolic way of describing all sensitive 'objects' making up the phenomenal world. Thus, with the Dao De Jing verses in mind, everyone of us could apply this symbolic to identify such or such subject or object, but in the end, it all comes back to 'all phenomena', or 'all things' (... of this phenomenal world).

All phenomena, ruled by Yin and Yang, created by the cosmos, created by Ultimate Reality (Tao).

'Object' here refers to what we can consider (be it a thought, a house, an emotion, a theory, a color, etc...).

Translating and interpreting '10.000 things' that way is in harmony with the concept of Yin and Yang (and its intrinsinc properties) and reinforces it (and its intrinsinc properties), concept upon which emerge all phenomena. Thus, following the scriptures of the 42th chapter of the Dao De Jing.

Just my two cents,

Maxime

[Adam Kryder]

Interpretations

To IO, OOO things,

Just some notes on interpretation of Chinese.

"10,000 things" is a translation of

万物 wan4wu4

I have seen many translations:

"10,000 things" is very literal.

I have also seen this translated as:

"the myriad beings"

"all"

However, the translation that matters the most is your own!
---------------------------------------------------------
my own commentary,

I believe it is quite ironic that he uses the word things. In Ancient Chinese, the Dictionary sites 3 modern day equivalents of 物 wu4.

1. is thing, or material object
2. substance or essence
3. examination, observation, sight (or the verb equivalents of )
-------
(Source:" 古汉语常用字字典” 1998 （ancient chinese frequently used word dictionary)

(Source: "Pocket Oxford Chinese Dictionary" third edition)
----------

Similarly this is quite in harmony with the 3 levels of attainment in Taoism

1. People, Places, Things
2. Heaven, Earth , Humanity
3. The Universe, Space, and Time
-------
(source: "Opening the Dragon Gate" by Chen Kaiguo and Zheng Shunchao. Translated by Thomas Cleary, Tuttle Publishing 1996)
--------

Funny isn't it.

Lets also Consider the looseness of language, and the fact that Lao Zi was one crazy dude, deep going and profound, and not without his own sense of humour. Usually after such experiences in life as his or others Syntax Changes. His usage of words might or might not be the "Frequently known" or "Commonly understood" meanings.

Soon, we see the words disolve and perception and feeling arrive in its place.

"Si despes de tantas palabras,
no sobrevive la palabra..."

"Even after so many words
the word does not survive..."
- Cesar Vallejo, "Poemas en Prosa, Prosa en poemas, Poemas Humanos"


Best Wishes

Adam

PS- Could someone elaborate on whether or not, and if so where Zhuangzi elaborates on this theme?

[Maxime]

Thank you very much for sharing Adam.

and the fact that Lao Zi was one crazy dude, deep going and profound, and not without his own sense of humour.

Hey bro, reminds me of... you!

Once again, u da man o' da day.

Peace,

Maxime

[West]

A good translation of the whole of the way of Zhuang is by Thomas Merton who was a Trappist monk.
Zhuang Zi is probably the funniest of the Taoist sages. I think he'd be horrified if he knew Taoism had become a religion. His way is very anti-establishment, in a way, and he frequently mocked the Confucian and Mohist ways - ritual, and wearing silly clothes. Merton's translation; "What need have the wild men of the south for ceremonial silk hats?" Worshipping or revering things was an anathema to him, whether that was a person or a thing - or, in one part, a turtle - but he accepted that many people, of course, revered sages. Like Lao Zi, he believed that a sage should be "the pivot around which good and bad, right and wrong, should turn."

Zhuang was from the state of Chu in the warring states period, which incidentally produced the poet, Qu Yuan - if you know of the famous dragon boat race and festival, then you might know he is the inspiration, and one of the most famous of all Chinese poets. Zhuang turned down the post of prime minister of Chu, as he was fishing in a river and enjoying himself, living simply, and did not wish to be disturbed... Chu was also the biggest state, until Qin started to get truly aggressive. Zhuang Zi wrote a lot about what Merton calls "perfect joy" and the idea of usefulness/uselessness.

I also expect Zhuang Zi would be a little annoyed or angry if he thought his basic philosophy had turned into a mystical thing, revered for thousands of years. I'm not an expert on Zhuang (but I wish I were - for a PhD, I'd like to do some work into Zhuang Zi and Daojiao, and maybe publish something) and my interpretation, as everyone else's is, is entirely personal, and I expect many will disagree with my interpretation. Which is great - I'll learn more about Zhuang Zi in the process.

I personally always picture him as the central character in the Akira Kurosawa film, Yojimbo, - a scratchy, astute man, who is essentially unafraid of what others think of him. This is a bit of a romantic image, though.

PS, it is a natural tendency to think of the Taoist philosophers as one, single movement. Remember, though, that Lao Zi is traditionally assigned dates around 100 years before Zhuang Zi.