Kung Fu vs. MMA

[Jimbeaux]

Here's and interesting video on Kung Fu vs. MMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQFFpA0C4LU&NR=1

He makes some similar points to ones that I've heard from my Sifu and on the forum.

[Casper]

Dear Jimbeaux,

Thank you very much for this video! Sifu Rudy makes some extremely important point, very interesting! And how wonderful to see Baguaquan being used effectively

Off to practice my footwork, stances and bodymovement

[Jimbeaux]

He also showed something that I never thought of, which can be easily used in our system, that is, using Bar the Big Boss against the shoot.

It looks very effective.

[Martin Do]

Risking The Front Leg

Dear Jim,

I used to practice sinking back into a Horse Stance and striking an incoming shoot with the front elbow and using the rear hand for gripping the shooter's face, throat etc if neccessary once momentum of his shoot is spent.

A senior whom I have very high regards for, very kindly adviced me that although this may work against an average or below average shooter, it is risky against a fast, skillfull shooter with intent.

Although your horse stance may hold you up against a shoot if your elbow misses (depending on size and power of the shooter), your front leg is still very liable to being grabbed, lifted and you floored.

Therefore because I don't have confident in being able to strike a fast skillful shooter every single time when he comes in, by surprise , I have started practicing other applications where the front feet is light and that I am not sunk into a stance - leaving room for agility.

Best wishes and happy training

Martin

[Martin Do]

Its All Good

Dear Jim,

PS - I just wanted to say that I don't disregard sinking back into Horse Stance and striking with the elbow. I may still find myself doing this in sparring by instinct, depending on timing and spacing of the situation.

However, given the kind advice I was given and my own consideration subsequently, I have dropped this from my practice against shoots .

Best wishes

Martin

[Jimbeaux]

Thanks for your comments Martin.

Standing my ground and trying to be an immovable force is probably not a fitting choice for me.

But I think what you describe:

sinking back into Horse Stance

is a bit different than in the video. Sifu Rudy actually moves forward with a preemptive strike, rather than sinking back. If both are moving fast, it could break the shooters neck. If not, the leg is certainly fair game.

Your point, however, is 100% valid and I agree with you. I just think it was interesting to see something known used in a new way.

BTW, I must say that discussing this in the first place is rather silly on my part considering the fact that I still have a lot to learn in terms of defending myself within the wahnam system or even against a normal person, let alone an MMA professional. So perhaps I'm jumping the gun and should leave this discussion to those with more experience.

All the best,
Jim

[Martin Do]

Dear Jim,

My misunderstanding then . When you mentioned above about using Bar The Big Boss against a shoot. I imagined sinking back into a Horse stance (which is the standard stance for this pattern, but not the only stance) and striking with the elbow.

Best wishes

Martin

[Jimbeaux]

I think, but could be wrong, it was something like the way we go forward for a precious duck, but instead of a punch it was bar the big boss.

Best,
Jim

[titussung]

Oversimplification?

Everything is the ammount of training time one puts into his/her kungfu. Although MMA artists mostly employ and master basic offensive and defensive Satndup, clinch, takedown and ground skills, their competence at the highest levels of competition is superior to the average non-competitive, professional Kung Fu, Karate, Silat, Boxing or Wrestling instructor. Just because they do not use "dirty" moves in competition does not mean that they do not know how to use and defend against them. But this is not what makes the difference. Are the people we are comparing to each other Pugilists in the Pankration meaning of the word... All Powers Fighters... Strikers and Grapplers who can take and give punishment without significantly affecting offensive and defensive inmitiative or sustaining permanant damage for the effort.

Street fighters and those with the experience of street fighters are only dangerous to people who are not dedicated to time spent in scholarship, and appliation of their knowledge in the gym. Top MMA Competitors such as Anderson Silva (BJJ/Boxing/Muay Thai), Lyota Machida (BJJ, Karate), Jon Jones (Muay Thai, Wrestling), Renzo Gracie (BJJ, Yoga), Nick Diaz (BJJ, Boxing, Tae Kwondo) would be too much for a street fighter karate, silat, boxing, wrestling or Kung Fu adept that did not train the way they train (When I say Boxing I am talking about a Mike Tyson Style, wrestling a John Smith style) This would be true in a street fight or competitive fight.

MMA Fighters are becoming aware of traditional training is necessary to refine and cultivate their craft before age sets in and their competitive time has eroded their natural gifts. Soon they will be fully into internal arts to extend their career and heal themselves. If a Kung Fu person integrates their styles to meet with the four areas of combat to the level of MMA standards... 5 mins of continuous work in standup, clinch, takedown and ground situations and can do this for 10 or more training rounds then they may stand a chance against a seasoned "Basic" offense and defense MMA adept. If they can do so then they will be pugilists and will be Kung Fu artists but more than that.... Modern Warriors steepted in the tradition of Greek Pankrationists and Roman Gladiators.

I know that this is a western position and this is a chinese forum but many of us are westerners. As such we should realize that we have a rich martial art heritage that was lost in part to Roman Empire decline and fall.. but it did rise in england in the 18th century as Pugilistic Pankration was reborn in Training Houses like the House of Figg and McBain. We know how to fight in a very sophistocated way by hand or sword but our culture has lost alot of that spirit as the sword gave way to the gun. Integration of Chinese culture was a great boost to that fighting spirit. But for those of us that are not Chinese but learn to fight in their way, we should not forget that we can culturally interpret those ways to refind our close combat roots.

MMA is one of the most powerful tests of a martial artists stamina, technique, strategy, intelligence and spirit ever devised by any culture and it began with the combined culture of Eastern and Western martial sciences. Many Kung Fu lineages train and have trained in the manner of Modern MMA Adepts for centuries. But even in China many of these lineages have lost that desire to reach such levels of pugilistic (Striking/Grappling/Healing) skill. China is the only country whose fighters have not been equalled or soundy defeated by Western "Basic" MMA strategies and techniques. This because they have not offered any challangers. However, almost every Western Chinese or Western Traditionaist who dared to step into the cage but did not incorporate MMA training strategies lost soundly.

If this Chinese traditionalist has steped in the cage and performed otherwise then he is the exception. If not then there is not alout of "Root" in his position....

[mping]

In any complete fighting system, (one that has techniques against most common attacks - kicking, grappling, punching, etc) what matters most is the skills developed. That's why most MMA guys don't follow a specific martial art (say, only practice BJJ or Muay Thai) and go for cross training - they try to complete their knowledge and skills.

Without entering into the internal or spiritual aspects, what Kung Fu practitioners should know is that Kung Fu is a complete system by itself, ie, you don't need to practice cross-training if you have a sound knowledge of Kung Fu philosophy and techniques.

That being said, I'm sure there are certainly good or bad Kung Fu techniques against a shoot. I'll have to try some out to check their effectiveness, although I have experienced that you can be both heavy and fast in the stances. One particular technique I found out that works well when someone is going to lift you up (say, by grabbing your leg in a shoot) is to but the thumb right below the jaw (I actually saw this in Ip Man 2 movie) - the opponent's force will push the thumb up in his jaw and he will probably stop lifting immediately. Of course, if you can reach the jaw you can probably go for the eyes, but I think that this technique is nicer

[titussung]

I Agree

If you are talking someone knowing the basics of different styles of Kungfu that specilize in standup and clinch, takedown and ground striking/grappling then i definitely agree. The Chinese culture has many responses to this fighting scenarios based upon a person who is mentally, physically and emotionally conditioned. They even have the internal aspects of martial development hich refines, cultivates and heals. But if one is only studying a singular style of kungfu then for the most part will be under-prepared for such a conditioned and seasoned MMA OR Kungfu adept. Example for a Kung Fu adept would be one that was schooled and conditioned in.

Shia Jiao - Takedown and Ground
Laohu Gong - Explosive Aggressive Stand-up Striking
Wing Chun - Inside Clinch Fighting
Internal Boxing - (Basic Bagua, Xingyi, Taiji) Health, Refined Strength, Suppleness and Stamina, Cultivated linear, circular and stationary movements.

Thes are all Kung Fu disciplines. They represent Waijia ansd Neijia methods. This would be the Chinese version of a MMA adept. Such a person would surely be a match for any seasoned Western MMA adept but have no doubt this level of work is exactly how a Western MMA adept trains at the highest levels of performance. Tom Hardy the Hun Gar adept and MMA contender is a great example of this. Cung Lee is another who begaqn traditionally and expanded while still honoring their Asian MA roots.

[titussung]

Clarity

I really do not want anyone to think that I that MMA Systems (Millitage Group, Lion's Den, Ceasar Gracie Club) hae evolved to the level of Chinese Kung Fu Systems. At least not yet, but they are moving toward this level of sophistocation. With the MMA world there are many entrenched positions as to what styles need to be mastered to be an effective competitor and Martial Artist: Boxing for Standup, Silat for clinching, Wrestling for Takedowns and BJJ for Ground work. But it seems the determination as to whether traditional Asian training is worthy of inclusion is based on effective fighting prowess in the cage or the Street. It is based upon the pugilistic prowess transmitted through the traditional system of Kung Fu.

This is where our T'ui Shou, San Shou, Chi Sao training must be focused upon. If we aint training to take a strike, escape a hold, choke or lock then we aint training to the proper pugilistic level. We are not talking about a shamanic mystic master level of skill as that takes decades of dedication but just simple Kung fu... hard work of a ten and twenty year veteran of the arts.

The mark of a high standard of Martial skill when observed in fighting is the calmness of comportment in defensive and offensive skill, continued breathing and unified body motion, structural soundness (Chin down, elbows in, hips tucked and chest sunk, kness bent and three fronts aligned) and the ability to constantly engage and stay within the striking range of the opponent while dissapating or evading the power of their striking or grappling manuvers.

Good Kung Fu training does this. A good Kung Fu Artist competing in San Shou or Sanda sparring demonstrated this. One that can not do this is suspect weather he is a MMA fighter or a Kung Fu fighter. The one thing that Kung Fu discipline does have that most MMA DISCIPLINES do not is Internal skill training. This is why I train in a Kung Fu style but measure it against the standards of a MMA or Modern Pankration Pugilist. But the treatise of Feng, Li and Wang talk about this.. the question is are we listening....