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  • #16
    Nature versus Physics : Wu Wei vs You wei

    An excerpt from an interview with Max Planck ( Physics Nobel Laureate 1918) :

    Interviewer : You have often said that the progress of science consists in the discovery of a new mystery the moment one thinks that something fundamental has been solved.

    Planck : This is undoubtedly true . Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature . And that is because , in the last analysis , we ourselves are part of nature and , therefore , part of the mystery that we are trying to sove .


    NB : In Zen , we stop the mind from monkeying around by being mindless. In Taoist parlance , many become one and 1 expands to zero.

    Damian Kissey
    Shaolin Wahnam Sabah , Malaysia .
    www.shaolinwahnamsabah.com

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Old-Liu View Post
      What was he thinking in those moments, I wonder, that great man? Some people think he faked his mental illness.
      Nietzsche for me is an excellent example of over-intellectualisation leading to serious, in this case fatal, energy blockage.
      Sifu Andy Cusick

      Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
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      • #18
        Originally posted by Andy View Post
        Nietzsche for me is an excellent example of over-intellectualisation leading to serious, in this case fatal, energy blockage.
        Well, we all have our different perspectives. Nietzsche was one of the greatest minds ever to have graced this planet. His thinking was revolutionary, his conclusions startling.

        There is an 'over intellectualization' in the sense of people who can't function properly in the everyday world, but intellectuals like Nietzsche, Darwin, etc., aren't bogey men, they're the shining lights of Western culture - simetimes we forget, in the West, that we had brilliant philosophers too, who explored ideas and concepts just as radical as Buddhism and Taoism - in fact, in many cases, very similar ideas.

        Personally, I'm very wary of any 'anti intellectual' agenda. Whose interest is it in to say that thinking about things deeply is bad?

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        • #19
          but intellectuals like Nietzsche, Darwin, etc., aren't bogey men, they're the shining lights of Western culture
          Darwin freed many people from the mindset of religious dogma. On the other hand, it lead many to think that humans descended from animals. I believe this is incorrect. Many scientists see what they expect to see. Darwin freed us from dogma. Now it's time to free ourselves from Darwin. As the monkey poem says: Man descended, but not from monkeys.

          Mark
          少林華南台灣 Shaolin Wahnam Taiwan

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          "Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."

          -Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

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          • #20
            Dear Old Liu,

            I was, at one time, a great fan of Nietzsche. It has been some time, however, since I have read his work, and my opinion of him is in need of reinvention. You seem to have a very high regard for him, judging by this quote:

            Originally posted by Old-Liu View Post
            Nietzsche was one of the greatest minds ever to have graced this planet. His thinking was revolutionary, his conclusions startling.
            For the sake of continuing the conversation, could you give us some examples of what you consider to be some of his greatest writings?


            Looking Forward to Your Kind Reply,


            Carl
            Charles David Chalmers
            Brunei Darussalam

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mark Blohm View Post
              Darwin freed many people from the mindset of religious dogma. On the other hand, it lead many to think that humans descended from animals. I believe this is incorrect. Many scientists see what they expect to see. Darwin freed us from dogma. Now it's time to free ourselves from Darwin. As the monkey poem says: Man descended, but not from monkeys.

              Mark
              Well, there certainly is a 'Creationist' viewpoint, or other viewpoints, that say that humans are not apes, and that we are not evolved from apes, but obviously we are apes. Not only are we apes, but we share common anscestors with the other apes.

              Evolution isn't speculation, it's absoloute, provable fact.

              There are a couple of things we need to be very, very careful of. One is the cliche of liking to think that scientists are some kind of kniow-alls who have all theory but are inferior in terms of spiritual development or real knowledge of the world. If you think about it, to take such a view point is FAR from spiritual, because it's based on one's ego saying 'I am better than that person because I'm spiritual and they're not' - so thinking oneself to be 'better' isn't spiritual, it's just prejudice.

              Actually, scientists - and intellectuals - DO live in the real world, have families, friends, and many are spiritual people.

              Equally, scientific knowledge isn't 'inferior' to 'spiritual' knowledge; they're just different knowledge sets. Scientific knowledge is what makes it possible for us to communicate like this, build planes, makes your clothes, medicines, and keeps out of ignorance.

              Secondly, denying evolution is VERY dangerous because we undermine the explanation for why there are so many different types of human being. Clearly, as we see the types of peoplechange from Africa to Arabia, the Hindu Kush, India, Nepal, Thailand, China, Korea, Japan, we are seeing a continuum of change, caused by natural selection. If we undermine that explanation, we're left with the idea of completely separate, different origings for each group, which opens the door to saying that some are inferior to others, and some are superior, which is exactly how that idea has been used.

              Evolution is fact. It's happening all around us.

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              • #22
                By the by, Mark, we humans not only descended from animals, we ARE animals.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Charles David View Post
                  Dear Old Liu,

                  I was, at one time, a great fan of Nietzsche. It has been some time, however, since I have read his work, and my opinion of him is in need of reinvention. You seem to have a very high regard for him, judging by this quote:



                  For the sake of continuing the conversation, could you give us some examples of what you consider to be some of his greatest writings?


                  Looking Forward to Your Kind Reply,


                  Carl
                  Nietzche's ideas evolve over a series of works, so it's difficult to say which work is greatest - as with all great thinklers you need to cherry pick the core ideas; someting which Nietzsche himself suggested, along with, if you 'get' what he said, it isn't actually necessary to read all of his work, only the ideas. So, as a reintorduction, you could consider one of the 'Introducing' books - a series of books on great thinkers which distill ideas of great minds. Then later on, if you're interested, you could read the books that interest you - there are many bibliographies on the net. But as with all great thinkers, you need the idea-set; the thread that runs through their work, to truly understand them. Reading is one thing, understanding is another - same with kung fu; doing forms is one thing, understanding quite another.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Old-Liu View Post
                    Well, we all have our different perspectives. Nietzsche was one of the greatest minds ever to have graced this planet. His thinking was revolutionary, his conclusions startling.
                    Old Liu,

                    I greatly appreciate Nietzsche as a philosopher and thinker, though I do not agree with his philosophy or conclusions.

                    I consider it important to recognise that the imbalances in his philosophy (obsession with power, superiority, etc) and his personal life (few friends, complete inability to relate to the opposite sex) were directly related to the mental-physical problems which led to his death.

                    As a chi kung student I now see this link as elementary though I would not have done so in the past.

                    According to Buddhist philosophy negative thoughts lead to negative occurrences; Neitzsche obviously had a lot of negative thoughts and this manifested in his health...the unhealthy aspects of his philosophy also had an effect on others - the ubermensch ideal was clearly influential on the imperialism of his day and also influenced the likes of Adolph Hitler, for example.
                    Last edited by Andy; 23 November 2008, 01:11 PM. Reason: typo
                    Sifu Andy Cusick

                    Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
                    Shaolin Qigong

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Andy View Post
                      According to Buddhist philopsophy negative thoughts lead to negative occurrences; Neitzsche obviously had a lot of negative thoughts and this manifested in his health...the unhealthy aspects of his philosophy also had an effect on others - the ubermensch ideal was clearly influential on the imperialism of his day and also influenced the likes of Adolph Hitler, for example.
                      What negative thoughts are you referring to here? I'm sure that anything Hitler read was grist to the mill of Nazism. I expect if he read some Buddhist texts he would have turned them into Nazi propoganda!
                      I actually don't believe at all that Neitzsche was over intellectual: he styled himself as a philospher-poet. Observe the following extract from Ecce Homo where he describes his inspiration:

                      (....)one is mere incantation, mouthpiece or medium of an almighty power. The idea of revelation in the sense that something becomes suddenly visible and audible with indescribable certainty and accuracy, which profoundly convulses and upsets one - describes simply the matter of fact. One hears - one does not seek; one takes - one does not ask who gives: a thought suddenly flashes up like lightening, it comes with necessity, unhesitatingly - I have never had any choice in the matter.

                      This is far from intellectual - it is visionary. I know of no other artist whose inspiration was so intoxicating. The surrealists tried to come near this in the 1920s with 'automatic writing' but the results are far inferior to something like Neitzsche's Zarathustra (in which I believe you will find some buddhist ideas)

                      Neitzsche's life and philosophy were, tragically, the same. Schopenhauer made a great little philosophy about the suffering of the world and then everyday he would go and have an excellent lunch at his hotel. Neitszche would have been in the hills by himself. There is a great little story about Schopenhauer who could aften be heard murmering to himself and people passed him whilst he was walking alone. Everybody thought he must be mulling over those great secret thoughts in his mind. One day someone went up behind him and listened and heard, "If only I had married so-and-so fifty years ago!"
                      The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. Oscar Wilde

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Old-Liu View Post

                        Evolution isn't speculation, it's absoloute, provable fact.
                        Old Liu,

                        I agree that evolution is absolute, provable fact, happening all around us.

                        However, I do not concur with evolution as proposed by Darwin, nor do I follow that these assumptions are the basis of manifest reality, as popularised by the high profile atheist Richard Dawkins and the Neo-Darwinian school of thought.

                        Im a trained molecular biologist and evolutionary biology was my favourite subject at Uni so Im very familiar with the dogmas of science. I used to base my thoughts on existence on these assumptions; survival-of-the-fittest, natural selection, random mutation, genes as drivers of human behaviour, etc.

                        However, I became sick (just like Nietzsche) following these lines of thought because I was unbenknownst to myself blocking out other information that would have led to different conclusions and setting up conflicts within myself; living in ignorance of the greater nature of being, essentially.

                        As examples of how I now think of evolution, consider the following:

                        Subjectively

                        Subjectively, I have been evolving all my life, as has everything else I have witnessed.

                        If I had been naturally selected (been killed) or mutated to a great degree (became seriously sick) - this would have got in the way of the process of my evolution!

                        Evolution therefore involves mind, both my rational thinking mind and my body consciousness. Body consciousness (including the information template DNA) is intelligent and interacts with the rational mind and the environment, not a dead template.

                        This internal evolution is one of consciousness.

                        Objectively

                        Darwinian selection - assumptions: individual objects, animate/inanimate dualism.

                        Reality -> no individual entities

                        i.e. The forests of Mauritius are less fertile than 500 years ago. Reason: Dodo is extinct. The forest is diminished because the Dodo is gone; to define the forest you must define the Dodo, to define the Dodo you must define the forest. Just as the Dodo has "No Self", the forest as a whole also has "No Self".

                        Reality -> no separation between living and dead

                        i.e. The Sun is inanimate and therefore "dead", but if you switched it off then the majority of the animate "living" portions of the surface of the earth would die.

                        To define life you must define the entire cosmos, and all of its processes, from micro to macro.

                        Conclusions:

                        Evolution is the nature of space-time.
                        Evolution is information processing.
                        Information is consciousness.
                        Evolution is the unfolding of Creation (Cosmic Mind)
                        Evolution is pure creativity (information/energy processing) manifested through the energy that we humans define as Love; an interdependent cooperative process in a cosmic system

                        ...not an independent competitive process in a cosmic accident.
                        Sifu Andy Cusick

                        Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
                        Shaolin Qigong

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                        "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
                        - ancient wisdom

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Darran View Post
                          What negative thoughts are you referring to here?
                          That negative thoughts follow (or rather underly) aspects of his philosophy should be stating the obvious:

                          His ethic is one of power (over), domination.

                          He loved war. He loved aristocratic superiority. He believed that the majority existed only for the use of the minority. He believed that the majority should suffer for the cause of a great man.

                          He abhorred the doctrine "Do not unto others that which you would not that they should do unto you".

                          He abhorred the idea of human equality.

                          Democracy or female suffrage are to be avoided at all costs.

                          He believed that the power of a will was demonstated by the amount of pain and torture it could endure.

                          He hoped for more evil and suffering in the world.

                          He believed that the ubermensch (great man) would arise through the annhilation of millions of the bungled and botched (you and me).

                          He wanted a world government ruled by men of power; artist-tyrants.

                          Women exist for the recreation of men; and should be dominated through fear "Thou goest to woman? Do not forget thy whip" {the only woman Neitzsche knew was his sister!}

                          He disliked Buddhism because it denied the superiority of one over another.

                          In a nutshell, his philosophy was rooted entirely in fear.

                          Do you now agree that he may have been harbouring some negative thoughts, Darran? Can you see any links between his philosophy and both the imperialism of his day and the later work of Adolph Hitler?

                          Originally posted by Darran View Post
                          Neitzsche's life and philosophy were, tragically, the same.
                          Exactly.
                          Sifu Andy Cusick

                          Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
                          Shaolin Qigong

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                          "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
                          - ancient wisdom

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                          • #28
                            Well, there certainly is a 'Creationist' viewpoint, or other viewpoints, that say that humans are not apes, and that we are not evolved from apes, but obviously we are apes. Not only are we apes, but we share common anscestors with the other apes.

                            Evolution isn't speculation, it's absolute, provable fact.
                            Current evolutionary thinking is based on assumptions, not fact. Scientists are always looking for missing links. They are not found. Instead, some raccoon looking animal is said to be the ancestor of whales. People see what they want to see. I don't believe that the world was created 6,000 years ago, nobody here is saying that. Rather I believe that humans have been here for much longer than currently proposed. If you look at the evidence without assumptions, you will see something different.

                            Mark
                            少林華南台灣 Shaolin Wahnam Taiwan

                            Facebook

                            "Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."

                            -Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

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                            • #29
                              Well, Andy, your reading of Nietzsche is almost entirley different from mine! In my reading he has an immense love for humanity! Your reading of him is negative - I think you are in some instances confusing what Neitzsche observed and what he actually sanctioned.
                              For example, my reading of "Thou goest to woman? Do not forget thy whip" is different. Neitzsche knew little of woman it is true but he did have one relationship outside of his sister. I think this is an autbiographical comment and I don't beleive he is advocating the use of fear to dominate woman. In the same paragraph you have quoted above he goes on to say that, "For the woman the man is the means, the end is always the child." which is probably biologically correct.
                              Sure he was fond of phrases like "blond beasts", the "Over Man" or "Superman" but these were poetic creations designed with a certain style in mind. The 'superman' is, in my reading at least, categorically NOTHING to do with Nazism nor domination. It is a metaphor for human potential.
                              The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. Oscar Wilde

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Charles David View Post
                                For the sake of continuing the conversation, could you give us some examples of what you consider to be some of his greatest writings?
                                I believe Zarathustra to be his greatest work. However, I can really recommend the little book "The Genealogy of Morality". It is a marvelous exposition on Morality, the Will To Power and the Christian Faith. Turns everything upon its head and you'll never be the same after reading it!
                                The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. Oscar Wilde

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