Standing Meditation vs. Sitting Meditation

[joko]

Dear Forum members and Shaolin Wahnam Family,

We all know the importance of meditation; it is one of the three treasures we have as the legacy of Shaolin Arts. I am pretty sure that I am right in making assumption that most of us practice Standing Meditation daily as part of our Chikung practice, rather than performing Sitting Meditation. While we are also aware that it is usually understood that Sitting Meditation in Lotus Position is the ultimate form of meditation.

Now, in this regard, did you happen to notice what a good question it was that Sifu Emiko raised in the thread 'Interview with Sifu on Podcast'? (quoted below)

Question: I have heard it said that Standing Meditation is not only equal to but even better than Sitting Meditation; would you kindly comment/elaborate further on this point?

Indeed, it made me re-think, with open mind, whether Standing Meditation is not only equal but even better than Sitting Meditation. Because if it is so, then our daily practice will have much greater new meaning.

Yes, I am eager to hear Sifu's insight about this, and I am sure most of you as well. Then, while pondering about this, I read the recent Question & Answer Series Nov 2006 part 1, quoted below.

Question 1
In one of your answers on your web page you mention 3 arts that were described as 'ultimate' by old time martial artists: One-Finger Zen, Striking Across Space Palm, and Shaolin Marvelous Fist. Could you please describe them?
Jeff, USA


Answer 1
These three arts were described as "Mo Lam Sam Chuit" (Cantonese pronunciation), meaning "the three ultimates in the world of martial arts." Incidentally, they are all from Shaolin Kungfu. All these arts can injure an opponent without physical oontact.

A master of "One-Finger Zen", or "Yeit Chi Sim", can injure an opponent by "dotting" his vital points within thirty six steps. The main training method is "One-Finger Shooting Zen".

A master of "Strike-Across-Space Palm", or "Phet Hung Cheong", can injure an opponent with a palm strike within seventy two steps. The main training method is "Cosmos Palm".

A master of "Shaolin Marvelous Fist", or "Siu Lam Shen Khuen", can injure an opponent with a punch within a hundred and eight steps. The main training method is "Striking a Well".

One may think that as "Shaolin Marvelous Fist" can cause injury from the longest distance, it is the most advanced of the three. But traditionally "One-Finger Zen" is considered the most advanced, and "Strike-Across-Space Palm" the next. It is because striking with a finger demands the highest level of control and focus.

Moreover it also can be used for healing. "Striking-Across-Space Palm" can be used for healing too, but it is not as sphofisticated as "one-Finger Zen". "Shaolin Marvelous Fist" is only used for damaging.

Is attaining these skills the supreme achievement in martial art training? As in many other things in life, the answer is yes and no. If we consider only combat efficiency, the answer is yes. While they are not absolutely invincible, it is extremely difficult for an opponent to escape injury from a master of these arts.

But defeating opponents is not the highest attainment in great kungfu. The supreme achievement is Zen, called variously as merging with the Tao or return to God. Using these arts for destruction is contrary to such supreme spiritual cultivation.

We may use these arts for healing. The tremendous internal force needed for destruction in these arts can also be used beneficially for healing others as well as promoting vitality and longevity for ourselves. The internal force can also open their heart, making them happy and free.

Yet, these benefits are still in the phenomenal realm. If we want to aspire to the highest, we have to transcend the phenomenal. Zen meditation, practicing while sitting in a lotus position or in any other positions including in combat application, is the royal path – when we are ready.

Most people, of course, are not ready yet. Hence, speaking relatively for their present needs, these arts may be regarded as the ultimate if they also apply them for wholesome purposes like attaining good health, vitality, longevity and happiness, and not just for hurting their opponents.

I realized then that actually, in the above answer, Sifu (Wong) has given a 'hint' of his answer to Sifu Emiko's question.

I would like to invite you to take a closer look at Sifu Emiko's question and Sifu Wong's Answer above, and then would you please share what you have found out regarding 'Standing Meditation' vs. 'Sitting Meditation'?

Later on I will present mine; and afterwards present some further questions which are relevant to this topic, derived from Sifu's answer above.

Thank you for your effort, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts and perspective,

Respectfully,
Joko

[Ray]

Dear Sifu Joko,

Yet, these benefits are still in the phenomenal realm. If we want to aspire to the highest, we have to transcend the phenomenal. Zen meditation, practicing while sitting in a lotus position or in any other positions including in combat application, is the royal path – when we are ready.

I believe that this paragraph is what you were referring to. Does this then mean that seated and standing meditation are equal and that it is the state of mind that counts? If this was so, then why did Sigung Ho tell Sifu Wong that lotus position is absolutely necessary for the highest spiritual attainment?

Love and blessings,

Ray

[8nsteen8]

-

I think this line from Sifu is intrerseting

these arts may be regarded as the ultimate if they also apply them for wholesome purposes

And as Sifu also points out

As in many other things in life, the answer is yes and no

Depending of your aims and depending on how you use the benefits from Standing Meditation and depending on what "level" you are on it can be the ultimate for you.

So even if you are aiming for the highest spiritual attainment practising Standing Meditation could be the ultimate for your development at the moment.

And on the other hand Sitting Meditations can be the ultimate for someone else depending on their situation.

Sincerely,

[Jordan]

I have not tried sitting meditation. Perhaps standing meditation requires more focus and control than sitting meditation.

In the QA Sifu mentions that more focus and control is required in One Finger Zen, and this is why it is considered the more advanced of the 3 ultimate arts of Shaolin.

I look forward to hearing the answer.

[Damian Kissey]

Kungfu Qigong Zen for Jing Chi Shen training

In The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu published by Elements ,Sifu wrote that one must sit in the single or double lotus position for the supreme aim of spiritual fulfilment ( page 190) .

i once asked Sifu , why ? The gist of his reply was : that physical form locks the human energy in a certain configuration conducive for the highest spiritual enlightenment . Sifu also added that "lock in" is not the best word because it suggests blockage.....what we all try to undo.

Of course , as we all have heard implied from spiritual cultivation literature , once you have attained Buddhahood , any position is the best .Perhaps , to attain good disciplehood when aiming for the highest in the Shaolin Arts , we start with dynamic position or standing position , then eventualy sitting position.....the principle of gradual progression.

So , it is "yes & no" to what's the best position , depending on one's aim and level of spiritual evolution.

Wishing all Brothers and Sisters : Happy Sitting out this Life using the Great Shaolin Arts .

[George]

I seem to recall hearing an answer to this already. As I remember, the answer is indeed "yes and no".

Standing Meditation is better than Sitting Meditation for beginner/intermediate level practitioners.

Sitting Meditation is better than Standing Meditation for advanced level practitioners.

A beginner like myself can practice Sitting Mediation, but the benefits I would get from it would be quite small (and I would probably cause myself injury in the process). Practicing Standing Meditation instead is much more beneficial (and safer) for me.

An advanced practitioner could practice Standing Meditation and achieve amazing benefits, but they would would get even more benefit from practicing Sitting Meditation (which would now be safe for them because they are ready.)


Hope this helps,

[joko]

Dear brothers,

Thank you for your responses.

It is heartening that all were good insights, and clear thinking, which proves how effective Sifu's teaching is!

I believe that this paragraph is what you were referring to. Does this then mean that seated and standing meditation are equal and that it is the state of mind that counts?

Yes, dear Ray, you pointed right. Interesting observation; I agree it can mean that seated meditation and standing meditation are equal, and that the state of mind that really counts.
About the state of mind, we can refer to brother Niklas's response:

Depending of your aims and depending on how you use the benefits from Standing Meditation and depending on what "level" you are on it can be the ultimate for you.

, which also reminds us to have clear objective or purpose each time we practice.
I invite you to dig deeper, what key factor is there that Sifu gave in that particular paragraph, which already gave the answer to your next question:

If this was so, then why did Sigung Ho tell Sifu Wong that lotus position is absolutely necessary for the highest spiritual attainment?

.
Our Senior brother Damian Kissey presented the illuminating Sifu's reply, that seating in lotus form makes the best physical form to properly maintain the human energy in a certain configuration conducive for the highest spiritual enlightenment. Another very important point raised by Dr. Damian is ... the principle of gradual progression. (Thank you, Sihing).

Brother George's response showed us how everyone is 'unique', that the suitable form of practice is unique for every individual. May I add that a practitioner can perform the same exercise (for instance 'Carrying the Moon) either in 'low' level or 'higher' level, again, depending on the aims and objectives determined before performing the exercise.

An advanced practitioner could practice Standing Meditation and achieve amazing benefits, but they would would get even more benefit from practicing Sitting Meditation (which would now be safe for them because they are ready.)

Do you notice the last part of brother George's response? Yes, one's readiness is the key words of Sifu's answer, which quoted again below.

Yet, these benefits are still in the phenomenal realm. If we want to aspire to the highest, we have to transcend the phenomenal. Zen meditation, practicing while sitting in a lotus position or in any other positions including in combat application, is the royal path – when we are ready.

Dear Sisters and Brothers,

Continuing to study deeper Sifu's writings, there are 2 other points I would like to raise:

1. In what way combat application can be the royal path to reach the highest, to transcend the phenomenal?

(I am a novice in combat application; so I am sincerely eager to learn from your experiences)

2. Regarding the royal path, according to the Great Bodhidharma, the destination of our journey is the journey itself.
Would you please share your findings to explain why the path is also the destination, using Sifu's phrase: -- 'when we are ready'.

Remembering to get the best benefits of our Discussion Forum as the extension of our training, there is a post by brother Barry in the thread 'Joy' in the Miscellaneous Section, which is relevant to our topic of royal path:

Happy is one who knows samsara and nirvana are not two.

-Milarepa, "Drinking the Mountain Stream"

Can we explain why samsara and nirwana are not two?
And why he, who knows that, is happy?

Thank you again for your effort, I look forward to hear more of your insights and perspectives,

Respectfully,
Joko
P.S. Sifu's phrase 'when we are ready' has become another 'mantra' for me. Remember the phrase 'when the student is ready, the teacher appears'.

[Dorin]

Dear Joko,

Very interesting thread.

"Can we explain why samsara and nirwana are not two?
And why he, who knows that, is happy?"

Samsara and nirvana are not two, because they are expressions of the same reality.
Our perception of the reality is subjective and our “reality” takes shape according to our thoughts, feelings, memories, dreams, expectations, etc.

Zen story:
"An old farmer had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. “Such bad luck,” they said sympathetically.
“Maybe,” the farmer replied.
The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. “How wonderful,” the neighbors exclaimed.
“Maybe,” replied the old man.
The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.
“Maybe,” answered the farmer.
The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son’s leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.
“Maybe,” said the farmer."

The one who realizes that is happy because she/he is no longer chasing nirvana and running away from samsara. Such a person is in tranquility and tranquility is happiness.

All the best,

Dorin

[8nsteen8]

-

Dear Siheng Joko,

I had an experience 6 months ago that was breathtaking.

I tried practising horse stance last spring and after some days of practising when i was standing in my horse stance totaly relaxed with gently open eyes i saw how the phenomenal world slowly transformed into a beautiful golden grid.

Since i learnt it from Sifus writings i was not sure what if i maybe did something wrong so i decided to stop practising it and only practise Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung.

I have now practised Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung for 4 months and i understand now that i wasnt ready for that kind of Chi Kung practise that combat application positions such as Horse Stance are.

I feel my patience is getting alot better since i started to realise that taking one step at a time is the only way to go .

I would love to learn more powerful Chi Kung exercises when i am ready and to digg deeper into that golden grid

[sean]

Hi everyone,

Actually a question on sitting meditation was asked at the New York seminar this weekend. Sifu replied that lotus position meditation is excellent, especially for those who have trouble quieting there minds.
My personal understanding is that during sitting meditation its just you and your mind. Nothing else. During chi kung or kung fu practice there are movements to aid in calming and focusing the mind and when standing there is still more physical body awareness to help keep you in the body and focused, but when sitting it is different. So it would be considered advanced I think perhaps for this reason. Still, Sifu's answer to the gentleman in New Yorks question was that Lotus postion meditation was excellent especially for those who have trouble quieting the mind. So I am curious to hear from the more advanced folks here as to why they think he responded like that? I personally have had a sitting practice for many months now and was happy to hear his response as I do wish to continue it. My sitting practice has changed dramatically since the course and I find myself reaching states of stillness I had rpeviously only dreamed of. I also now only do it for about five minutes twice a day after my chi kung practice.
Looking forward to hear what you guys think

Sean

[Ray]

2. Regarding the royal path, according to the Great Bodhidharma, the destination of our journey is the journey itself.
Would you please share your findings to explain why the path is also the destination, using Sifu's phrase: -- 'when we are ready'.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
My training in the martial arts is pretty limited but I feel I can contribute to this area. At the most prosaic level, the path and the destination are the same in that you find what you are looking for has been there all along. For instance, if I wanted to find happiness and I become ready through training and smiling from the heart I will find that my parents, my family, and my friends have always been there and the happiness I have been searching has always been there. Another example could be finding a teacher. Great teachings and teachers are everywhere and I wanted to share my experience that if you sincerely look you will find what you are looking for. And it's always right in front of you.
^_^ Here's a zen story:

A student went to see a great spiritual master. The master asked what the student was looking for and the student said he heard that the master was a great teacher and wanted to learn from him.
The teacher commented that wouldn't it be better if instead he learnt from a Buddha directly?
The student was overjoyed and asked where he could find a buddha. The master told him that he should head back home and buddha will appear before him with a robe and wearing one slipper.
The student was confused and went home. His mom, overjoyed to see him, rushed out to greet him wearing a robe and one slipper.

^_^

I am sure that on higher levels there are higher levels of awareness and what not ^^ But I'm not qualified to discuss those.

Best,

Ray

[ryanberg]

Still, Sifu's answer to the gentleman in New Yorks question was that Lotus postion meditation was excellent especially for those who have trouble quieting the mind. So I am curious to hear from the more advanced folks here as to why they think he responded like that?

It's funny you mention this, because this was my first thought when I read this thread...but decided not to mention anything for some reason. I haven't practiced sitting meditation since *before* I learned chi kung from Sifu 6 years ago...I learned it from his books. But I do recall reaching some deep states of meditation quite easily...easier it seems than when I practice chi kung in some cases now.

This makes me wonder (and I have wondered before) if sometimes the cleansing process in chi flow and perhaps in standing meditation as well "seems" to clutter the mind with thoughts. I have had practices where during chi flow it is very difficult to quiet my mind, but as soon as I bring my chi to my dan tian and go into standing meditation it's like suddenly my thoughts come to a stop as well...and it is quite easy to keep my mind clear. Perhaps sitting meditation is an easier method for quieting your mind because you aren't "kicking up dirt" in the cleansing process?

On Nirvana...

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us...
Just a stranger on the bus...
Tryin' to make his way home...

- Joan Osborne


Ryan

[HugoDarien]

Standing Meditation vs. Sitting Meditation

Hello!

hat it doesn't matter!
In the end we don't really sit or stand, that is just a illusion, we don't even exist! And enlightened is not the end itself, there is something beyond or a step after the enlightenment and there is even something or a step after that too, and it continuous so for infinity whiteout ends! Even God that know all and is everywhere etc, never continue to learn or have new experiences all the time, you see that it was is all about it the infinity itself that have always something new in the way or TAO! but I still use words

In the seven Bambo tablets detail 360 methods of attaining enlightenment !

Regards

[AriJ]

Standing vs stitting meditation...

Hello everybody,

this thread has been highly interesting... I just wanted to share my few toughts on this issue:
From my experience standing meditation is much easier for the beginner. I do both standing and sitting meditation frequently and I must say that it took quite a long time to be able to sit comfortably even in the Half-Lotus position.

Actually getting into Half or Full Lotus position is not so hard (if one is limber enough ), the hard part is about being able to sit in a correct, relaxed posture for awhile. To do this was (at least for me ) hard work, that did take quite a long time (2 years nearly daily practice). But once one is there, it is quite rewarding.

I do not do sitting meditation daily nowdays (since the regional course with Sifu Wong), since it is not part of my 20 minute Chi Kung routine any more. But when I do have extra time, just sitting 30 - 40 minutes in a relaxed Half Lotus postion and breating slowly is very, very nice. Since learning Chi Kung directly from Sifu Wong also the sitting meditation has become more profound experience than it was previously.

br,
AriJ

[Racheli]

Hello dear all,
Every one here is much more experienced than me on this issue but I do have a most wonderful book about Zen –‘Zen Mind – Beginner’s Mind’ by Shunryu Suzuki the Zen Master.
From page 25- about zazen - the sitting meditation
“Posture – these forms are not the means of obtaining the right state of mind. To take this posture is itself to have the right state of mind. There is no need to obtain some special state of mind.
Now I would like to talk about our zazen posture. When you sit in the lotus position, your left foot is on your right thigh, and your right foot is on your left thigh. When we cross our legs like this, even though we have a right leg and a left leg, they have become one. The position expresses the oneness of duality: not two, and not one. This is the most important teaching: not two, and not one. Our body and mind are not two and not one. If you think your body and mind are two, that is wrong; if you think that they are one, that is also wrong. Our body and mind are both two and one.”

Hope you enjoyed it, as I did.