a question about Wing Chun Kuen

[Rithgard]

ive been looking about in my local area for someplace to learn Kung fu and though unfortunatly there is nowhere in the north of ireland to learn Shaolin Wahnam i came across a group teaching Wing Chun Kuen at my university.. i understand that this is a forum dedicated to Shaolin Wahnam but i would be greatly interested to get some information on this style or views on it from those practicing a different style, as it is not one i am readily familiar with and unlike the Art of shaolin Kung Fu i have had trouble finding reading material on this style asside from technical manuals :/ which arnt all that heavy on the background and practices associated with it :S.

[Andrew]

There have been a few discussions on this style (and variants) here. I suggest you do a quick search. Sometimes, though, the spelling is different (from different organisations):
Ving Tsun
Wing Choon
Wing Chun
Ving Chun
etc.

Andrew

[Rithgard]

heh my enthusiasm perhaps got the better of me :P searching the forums was pretty informative and answered most of my questions admirably thankyou

[Baguamonk1]

From what I have seen there are lots of disputes between lineages, but the flavor of the style stays generally the same. I would not train with the dude (forgot his name) who created "Ving Tsun," heard alot of bad things. Also beware of the over reliance of chain punching, good to set up a bigger shot, but alot of people seem to think of it as the ultimate stopping tool. Really reliant on hand skills (and usually leg kicks aimed low, its a southern style). Similar to tuishou, they do chi sau, or sticky hands. A sensitivity drill done to train hand skills, openings, and bridges. Really good skills although finding someone who punches, and leaves their arm extended out for you to "trap" is a very rare occurance.

Good luck finding a school man, WC has alot ot offer.

[Andrew]

Similar to tuishou, they do chi sau, or sticky hands. A sensitivity drill done to train hand skills, openings, and bridges. Really good skills although finding someone who punches, and leaves their arm extended out for you to "trap" is a very rare occurance.

I'm afraid this is another case of ignorance showing through. If the skill of "sensing" was reliant on physical contact with your opponent's outstretched arm, then it would really be of extremely little use. I though you were experienced in pushing hands??

Andrew

[Baguamonk1]

No, alot of applications taught are against an outstretched arm. Someone punches you from far away, sticks his arm out for a bit, allows you to move in, trap his arm, and chain punch him 1000000 times, elbow, knee while the guy just stands there and takes it. This is common in Wing Chung demo's.

And push hands is not real fighting to begin with, I was not discussing chi sau. I should of put it in another paragraph. You boys just jump on every opportunity you see don't you? I admit it already, Shaolin Wahnam is superior to everything, and anyone who disagrees is ignorant.

[Andrew]

No, alot of applications taught are against an outstretched arm.

Yes. But most such applications do not rely on your opponent remaining there with their arm, waiting for you to counter. As you say, this may be common in demos. But this implies to me (rightly or wrongly) that you consider the demos to be the essence of the art. It's like saying the "Wheel of Life" tour of the monks is the essence of the Shaolin Arts. Ridiculous.

I admit it already, Shaolin Wahnam is superior to everything, and anyone who disagrees is ignorant.

Sorry. Don't agree with this either. Only some who disagree are indeed ignorant. You seem to have chosen where you fit though.

By the way, how much personal experience of Wing Choon do you have? Your comments, as usual, imply you are an authority. I don't have a great deal of exposure to this Art. That is why I usually don't comment on it. But in this case my exposure is enough to have seen that it is more than you imply it is.

Andrew

[Rithgard]

i found a wing Chun club at my university and the sifu seems to know what he is about , ive only been there a few weeks though, my intial impressions are favourable, they dont do much by way of chi exercises but i can always join the tai chi club to further cultivate inner power i guess

regarding chi sau.. the time ive spent doing this drill (both in class and with compliant friends and family members :P) to date suggests that it is as much to teach students correct posture and elbow/wrist position in regards to an opponents hight etc.. and to train reflexive responds to attacks and blocks and to promote fluid movement of the arms in combat(though this is just a beginners impression so far).i guess the somewhat vague "promote sensitivity and awareness will come with this.. from what ive read and seen from the seniors in my club wing chun seems very into ending fights with efficiency and commendable speed. our sifu and a senior member gave us a demonstration and in each case the fight was over in seconds (with a bare minimum of chain punching)

[Baguamonk1]

Very little experience obviously. Practice with alot of my friends who have done it. in the new place I just moved to I currently have a neighbor who has been practicing it for a long time, we are going to touch hands some-time soon.

Chi sau is very impressive, I really like the fluidity and speed at which people do this drill, and it is very interesting to watch two highly skilled exponents do this drill.

Again my complaints were about the common WC demos that are out there, go to seminars, go to youtube, anywhere and you will find lots of demo's like the ones I described.

Personally, WC is not my cup of tea for various different reasons. But there is no point in discussing this, the topic creator wanted advice on something different. My advice is to look around, and ask around. See what best fits your goals, and ideas. After you get good, spar people from different styles or MMA, its a real eye opener Will make your wing chung that much better IMO.

[Ronny]

Hi alltogether

I have 7 years of Wing Chun experiences. If you ask me the hallmark of Wing Chun is: to go always forward, never ever go backward (not even a single step)! This means when someone attacks me (irrespective if it's a punch, kick, gripping or a throw) I always go "into" the attack and thrash it up. You use centrifugal and centripetal force. When you are skilful you don't need much muscular force even if you are a smart girl against a brutal bouncer. But in this case you have to be VERY SKILFUL!

The best Wing Chun example was Sifu Yip Man. He looked so slim and fragile and had absolute no muscular strength! But he beat up many other martial artists and heavy brutal street fighters! He was very skilful!

[Baguamonk1]

I don't consider demo's essence of the arts. People want to see a certain martial art, in its "efficiency" and all they have is Demo's. Since rarely do people do competitive fighting, or have filmed experiences of streetfights, they show Demos, and the demonstrations are always lame. If they are claiming superiority over other martial arts, or trying to show its efficiency, it should at least be somewhat realistic, and not against a novice student who sits there and takes it. That is all. I have seen demos of WC guys going "this is how you defend against a shoot" (anti grpapling etc.)and its one of the novice WC students, slowly, and uncoardinatingly trying to tackle someone at the upper waist (and not the legs..) while the guy steps to the side and chain punches them, or elbows the back. Its not the essence of the art I have a problem with, its the demos. So don't try to say I was "mistaking demo's with the essence of art," that would be putting words in my mouth.

[lanterna]

Hi there,

I'm also considering joining a Wing Chung class, I curruntly live in the Hague (netherlands) and curruntly there is no regular Wahnam classes here (altough there are several practitionars here including Darryl).
I do not have the bases so I actualy need a class so I can begin the training.
From My investigation it seems that Wing chung is a very straitforward style with none of "exibition" purely aimed at the objective.

Ronny you said you have 7 years experience with wing chung, what arre the main diferences between Wing chung and Waham? why did you decide to change styles?

Best regards,

Pedro dos santos

[Ronny]

Hi Lanterna

To be honest the difference between Shaolin Wahnam and even a good Wing Chun school is like the difference between a Ferrari and a VW Golf. I’m not disrespectful here, because even I enjoyed my 7 years of Wing Chun experience and I came to the conclusion that it is a very effective martial art for real dangerous situations. But…… . There are so many differences so I only will list the main ones below:

1. A good Wing Chun school has only 3 dimensions: self-defence, health and fitness and character training. It lacks completely in training the mind and spiritual development. Shaolin Wahnam includes all 5 dimensions!

2. Even if Chi Kung and Internal Force Training is integrated in high-level Wing Chun, over 95% (or more) of the Wing Chun schools worldwide have lost these important roots completely! But this is a general problem every style of Kung Fu and Tai-ji-quan has today. But luckily Shaolin Wahnam is very rich in Chi Kung and Internal Force Training!

3. Wing Chun is a 100% short-range fighting-style. Wing Chun practitioners don’t know how to fight in long-range and middle-long-range. Shaolin Wahnam satisfies in every possible distance.

4. The number of techniques in Wing Chun is limited. Shaolin Wahnam not only includes every existing Wing Chun technique (of course with some variations), the total number of techniques are at least 20 times the total number of techniques in Wing Chun!

5. Wing Chun is more a style for people who have not so much time to train. Because you normally have only 2 stances and limited techniques it’s relatively easy to become a good fighter in just 6 months. Of course you will need to learn in a good school from a good master or instructor and even if your time per training session is limited you have to train regularly! On the other hand Shaolin Wahnam is for worthy people who are ready to work hard (hard work doesn’t mean to stress you muscles or to get out of breathe like in cardiovascular external [and sports] training). But nevertheless it’s not even a problem for people who have a family and (or) have a full-time job, study or go to school to fulfil the necessary requirements. (And most of the Shaolin Wahnam members have a full-time occupation). The training of Shaolin Wahnam should penetrate our daily life (familiy-life, spare time, job, school, ….) whereas Wing Chun is practised more separately from our other activities.

The above quotes also indicate possible reasons why someone changes from Wing Chun to Shaolin Wahnam. But in my case it’s different. Since I was a boy I knew that Shaolin Kung Fu is the greatest martial art in the world. I only trained Wing Chun because I had no other option at this time!

[salurian]

I think what Baguamonk1 means here is that Chi-Sao is often misunderstood or misinterprated. Like every drill it is set up to teach and build up various skills.
It starts limited and become free-flow later on.
The problem on that is not the drill itself. The problem is that people a lot of time get teached wrong. Chi-Sao is not fighting. It´s for senitivity and energy. If you see the stance they have in Chi-sao and you may ask Sigung about this stance, I´am sure he will say that this is no fighting stance, but a stance for energy. This is where the problem comes up. People train Chi-Sao, get attacked doing there stuff and beat the not movin opponent up. But in fact they missed the lesson about it. Imho the Chi-Sao is to build up skills and applicate them in fighting, but chi-sao is not fighting.
But this is not a problem with the system or drill, it is because people get teached wrong.
You are in the lucky position to have a excellent Sigung who is a whealth of knowledge. But a lot of teachers don´t have this knowledge, so they are showing their students the drill, but not the application.

[Ronny]

Yes, the primary reason to train Chi-sao is to build up skills for sensitivity, "feeling" and to use and "hear" the chi. But like every traditional exercice it MUST BE applicable for real combat, skills by itself are for nothing. The problem today is that the HOW TO APPLY is almost lost not only in Chi-sao, but almost everything. Only the form and technique remains. Although they are important they are only the "surface", the first elementary step in real traditional martial art.

Its like in school when you learn the ABC and learn some short elementary words to read and write like papa, mama, and, in, for, next, some, many, much, etc... . But only we the ABC and some short words you will never be able to read a book or to write a letter. There are further steps until you will be able to reall read and write. This is the "transformation step" which is necessary.

Almost every traditional martial arts school has lost the very important "transformation step". There's only form and free sparring. No steps in between. only black and white. But the reality needs a lot of diffrent gray, from very light gray to very dark gray.

Always bear in mind: "Mastery needs many steps, in every field not only in martial arts!"