Should the forum be closed to Non Shaolin Wahnam Members

[P. McSweeney]

I was interested in the general view of Shaolin Wahnam Members only please as regards the following poll.
I am voting in favour of closure.

[Akemi]

I believe that the forum is an invaluable tool, not only for Wahnam students, but for anyone who is trying to find quality information on the Shaolin Arts.

I also believe that non-Wahnam members, specifically those who disagree, are quite beneficial for the growth and development of all. Those long threads that can tire all of us out at some point have gold nuggets of information in them.

The openness of the forum allows for creative exploration, and the spread of good information. It can also introduce individuals to our Arts, and affect them enough (in a positive way) to seek instruction from Sigung or one of our Sifus.

[Chiahua]

Hi Vanessa, while I largely agree, digging through these long threads can be tiresome. The longest threads with the most "lively" debates in my opinion have the highest noise to signal ratio--the actual information (rather, what I find valuable) is buried beneath mountains of debate. Moreover, the general themes or patterns of these discussions seem to repeat themselves: outsider comes on wanting to debate a tenet of the School; somehow in the process of debate they forget that this is a Wahnam board and the board rules are forgotten... As Siheng Zhang put succinctly,

To an Asian and to most Wahnam students, respect is part of our culture. I personally have been utterly shocked at how some Westerners speak to their elders. So, if one is going to post here, just follow the rules, not least those relating to respect.

So much of the misunderstanding comes this basic cultural difference. Of course, the expectations of respect and deference are not easily grasped by those who have not had such a relationship.
I admire the moderators of this forum for their perseverance in trying to clarify the Shaolin Wahnam position despite the fact that many who come on the board are clearly not there to learn. I'm also grateful for whoever posts the quotations from the discussion forum on Sifu's mainpage, which helps me to access the information I need the most. After all, I'm here to learn from Shaolin Wahnam.

[DarkCosmoz]

Although I am technically not a Shaolin Wahnam student/member, I have been here so long and have learned so much from the online interactions. It would be saddening if this forum was closed off to Wahnam members only.

[shaolin_mike]

If it was not for this forum i might not even be a Shaolin Wahnam student.....

Sunyata is quite right the long lively discussions are often the ones you have to skim through to find the quality posts.. but we are really spoilt you know. Go look at other forums and see first of all the amount of junk and spam threads, also pointless posts from people trying to get their post count up, and flaming and abuse. Really go look around on some other forums so you can appreciate this one more.

This is all down to the way it is moderated and so ultimately the question asked in the title of this thread is down to the moderators because they are the ones who have to do all the work. Nevertheless I wish it would stay open to respectful outsiders (not trolls and spammers) as they add some variety and some even decide to join our school after chatting with the people here.

[Chiahua]

The wonders of computer technology

Wow, I just discovered that this thread appeared at the bottom of the screen under "related threads". Funny, given the circumstances surrounding this poll...

[P. McSweeney]

Hi Vanessa,

I too believe the forum is a very valuable tool.
However there are a few reasons why I think access should be restricted.

1. The forum in its current format is unsustainable. The amount of work the moderators have to do is very great, and its nearly always moderating those who haven't trained with Sifu.

2. Sifu's website contains more than enough information and advice already for those looking. A lot of those who come here and debate seem more interested in theorising than trying out our Qigong/KungFu.

3. I believe the focus of this forum should be on helping those who have already trained in some way with Shaolin Wahnam deepen their practice, ask questions, obtain advice etc.

All the best
Paschal

[Antidote]

I think this forum was created for two reasons :

A- help the comunication between Wanham members and instructors

B- spread good information about Shaolin arts to anyone interested

it seems that these 2 things are becoming difficult to handle because of the increase of bad information from outsiders.
I think, since the point B is interfering with the point A, it's better if the forum is closed to non Wanham members. It's a matter of priorities. I believe it's more important to consolidate the knowledge inside Wanham students. The new students will always come, and the information is spread anyway. Sifu page has much information.
And the last point is that it seems that the information in the forum is too much to handle for people who don't practice Shaolin arts. The difference bettwen Wanham and the other schools is so big, that most of the times the comunication is quite difficult.

Blessings

Antidote

[Andrew]

The moderators have a lot of work here, that is true. I'd hate to count the hours Anthony, I and the others have spent here. It is also true that the non-Shaolin Wahnam members need to be moderated far more than others. But those needing this moderation remain in the minority. This forum is for the majority. And it is for this majority we work so hard.

Yes, some of the threads are very long and sometimes heated. But how many have learnt how many lessons from them. And those lessons are invaluable. A lot of the non-Shaolin Wahnam members (and also the members of course) take the opportunity to post to show their wisdom. Kevin, in the recent thread about Michael Udel, took this opportunity. How did he do? And what lessons (if any) can be learned?

By the way, some come here attempting to share wisdom and ending up showing their foolishness instead

Andrew

[Grimlock]

Although I think some valid points have been raised for closing the forum to non-Wahnam members, I voted to keep it open to them.

First, one of the primary aims of Shaolin Wahnam is to spread genuine kung fu and chi kung. While it's true that Sigung's website and books have tons of valuable information, this forum brings something that those do not: Interaction. People can come to this forum, communicate directly with some of Sigung's inner chamber disciples no less, and see for themselves that we practice what we preach. They can even receive advice and some limited instruction! This is really incredible. And it seems to me that many people practicing from the books alone have come here and used their experiences here as the final push to go take one of Sigung's courses. Yes, you could say that they should be interested enough to do this on their own, but I think it's a very small price to pay for enabling someone to achieve a lifetime of health and happiness.

Second, as my always wise Sissook Andrew said, this forum is for the majority, not the minority. Yes, this means that the forum is geared mostly towards Shaolin Wahnam students as opposed to non-students. But it also means that it's for the majority of well-behaved, respectful users as opposed to the "troublemakers" who show up from time to time. There are many non-Wahnam forum members who are at the very least well-behaved and respectful and at the most make valuable contributions. Just because the disrespectful ones draw the most attention does not mean we should penalize the others. And frankly, I think we would lose out as much as they would.


Just my thoughts.
Chris

[Akemi]

Just because the disrespectful ones draw the most attention does not mean we should penalize the others. And frankly, I think we would lose out as much as they would.

I couldn't have said it better myself, Siheng. Thanks.

[P. McSweeney]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far.

This topic has made me think about the amount of work the Administrators perform keeping this forum open.
I would like to thank them for their efforts and say that I have benefitted enormously from being a member here.

My opinion that we should restrict access to this forum isn't because I think we should restrict access to our art. We are very lucky to be practicing genuine Qigong, an art that has become part of my life and changed it from the inside out. (Thank you Sifu). If I could persuade all of my patients to practice Qigong I would.

Thank you
Paschal

[Grimlock]

My opinion that we should restrict access to this forum isn't because I think we should restrict access to our art.

Hi Paschal,

I just wanted to say that I didn't get the impression that you wanted to restrict access to the forum to restrict access to our art, and I hope my previous post didn't come across the wrong way (i.e. that I *did* get this impression). It was more general thoughts about the forum's value, not any sort of response to what anyone has said in this thread.

I fully agree that the amount of work the moderators do is massive. Thank you Sisook Andrew and Sifu (Anthony)! But more Sifus and Assistant Instructors have been getting involved lately (although I think most of them are in Malaysia right now), and if those of us juniors (like myself) can help out where we can every so often, maybe we can help lessen their load. I'm not saying anyone should feel obligated to do this, but I'm sure that those who want to would be encouraged to.


Best,
Chris

[Andrew]

....if those of us juniors (like myself) can help out where we can every so often, maybe we can help lessen their load. I'm not saying anyone should feel obligated to do this, but I'm sure that those who want to would be encouraged to.

Indeed.

Andrew

[Tapio Raevaara]

First of all, it would be good for everyone to realize that there are more than two levels of openness. Here's a few examples:

1. Open for everyone, no need to register.
2. Open for everyone, registration required. (This is the current level, I believe.)
3. Open for everyone with some special requirements (for example, full name, age, occupation, MA experience etc. required for registration)
4. Different levels of access for different members (for example, some forums only viewable by Shaolin Wahnam Students, registration required to view the forums at all, only Shaolin Wahnam Studens able to post on some forums etc.)
5. Forum open only for Shaolin Wahnam Students.

These levels can also be mixed, of course.

I was interested in the general view of Shaolin Wahnam Members only please as regards the following poll.
I am voting in favour of closure.

In my opinion the forums should definitely remain open. I would probably not be here without the forum, and I'm sure there are others like me.

If "outsiders" cause too much trouble, I'd suggest special requirements for registration at least for non-Shaolin Wahnam students like full name, age, location and martial arts experience (see point 3). That would discourage trolls and simultaneously keep the forums open for those sincere in seeking answers or guidance. Obviously, this would be a compromise. It would not completely stop the trolls, and there are many reasons why a sincere, deserving (future) student might want to stay anonymous.

Hi Vanessa,

I too believe the forum is a very valuable tool.
However there are a few reasons why I think access should be restricted.

1. The forum in its current format is unsustainable. The amount of work the moderators have to do is very great, and its nearly always moderating those who haven't trained with Sifu.

If this really is the case, perhaps we need more moderators.

2. Sifu's website contains more than enough information and advice already for those looking. A lot of those who come here and debate seem more interested in theorising than trying out our Qigong/KungFu.

I agree, Sifu's website has no parallel. However, the information there is different from the information in the forum, and many people come here to look for different kind of information, information that is more difficult to find from Sifu's website: information on the students and their experiences.

3. I believe the focus of this forum should be on helping those who have already trained in some way with Shaolin Wahnam deepen their practice, ask questions, obtain advice etc.

I believe this already is the focus. Although many posts are addressed to the visitors, most of the benefits are reaped by us. Which is sometimes unfortunate.

Best Regards,
Tapio