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**Antonius** · 2 September 2006, 08:07 PM

I don't know why they label that as Tai Chi. It's Shaolin Chi-Na, which comes from Dr. Yang's Shaolin White Crane system. It's not from his Taijiquan lineage.

By the way Ray, Sifu Anton in Canada is very skillful with these techniques. He has taken several seminars with Dr. Yang, and I believe he incorporates them into our Shaolinquan. Ultimately, it's all Shaolinquan anyway.

In my opinion, these techniques are less sophisticated that Sifu Wong's chin-na, but they are also easier to perform because they don't require any internal force. Nevertheless, they are still quite sophisticated. In my opinion, Dr. Yang's chin-na is more sophisticated than most of the jujutsu out there.

Years ago, I took Dr. Yang's seminar in New York. After that, I added the "White Crane Nod's Head" technique to my repertoire. It fits in nicely and easily into our system, and I find that this one technique is more than enough for my needs. It is an excellent way to subdue an unsuspecting opponent poised (or attacking) with an open hand.

**Ray** · 3 September 2006, 05:34 PM

Dear Sifu Anthony,
It's wonderful to hear that you have incorporated such techniques into your Shaolin kung fu. Thank you for sharing your insights.

Best wishes,

Ray

**yeniseri** · 3 September 2006, 06:30 PM

all is same

divineshadow
Dr Yang's teaching is wonderful! I think the reason he separates taiji qi'na and shaolin qi'na is that most people who see qi'na, will not understand it.
If one who practices shaolinquan sees taiji qi'na as part of a course,that person will dismiss the course saying that there is no such animal.
The reality is that qi'na is an art unto itself that can be incorporated into any system like wing chun, 5 elbows? changquan, so the distinction may be good for an audience who thinks they are separate!

**Antonius** · 3 September 2006, 06:47 PM

Ugh. Yeniseri, has a real knack for inserting untrue statements in a wide variety of threads. This latest one is most amusing. As usual, I am forced to step in and correct him. This forum is dedicated to spreading quality information, not misinformation.

The reality is that qi'na is an art unto itself that can be incorporated into any system like wing chun, 5 elbows? changquan, so the distinction may be good for an audience who thinks they are separate!

Chin-Na is not a separate art any more than kicking is a separate art. Chin-na is one of four categories that are present in all high-level kung fu:

1. Striking
2. Kicking
3. Felling/Throwing
4. Chin-Na

Dr. Yang's chin-na comes mainly from his Shaolin White Crane system. What you are seeing in the video is mainly Shaolin Chin-Na, not Taiji Chin-Na. You can tell by the names of the patterns, like "White Crane Nodes Head." Taijiquan has chin-na as well, just as it has punches, kicks, and throws. But Just as Taijiquan punches are slightly different than Shaolinquan punches, so is Taijquan chin-na slightly different than Shaolin chin-na.

In our school, these categories are represented by different combat sequences. For example, sequences 1-8 emphasize striking, sequences 9-12 include kicking, sequences 13-16 include felling & throwing, and sequences 17-20 include chin-na. But chin-na is a specialty that can later be explored in many patterns. For example, the first two patterns we teach, Single Tiger Emerges Cave and Black Tiger Steals Heart, both contain chin-na applications in them.

**yeniseri** · 3 September 2006, 08:27 PM

many views

Antonius,
It is I who must correct your misunderstanding while saying your view is a good one since that is how you understand it.
Some main points
1. qi'na has within it striking, kicking, pushing, throwing, and so on.
2. Its translation is seizing, grabbing, catching, trapping and other similar words.
3. Seizing is not relegated to hands and the feet are part of the equation.
Can a kick be part of qi'na? if you know what to do with it and how you define it. To extend outward is to kick but the leg can serve to trap the other's leg to throw (attempt) then seize with hand(s).

Dr Yang's superiority lies in his ability to translate his White Crane qi'na and see similiarites with other arts. If one learns, for example, Hui tantui form and still apply qi'na with it despute the form names being different. As long as the basic movemnts are there, then qi'na can be used adroitely.

One does not need form to learn qi'na but sadly that is how it is marketed as part of learning today.
Your view is valid from your perspective so please do not think otherwise and your comments are praiseworthy so thank you.

**Ronan** · 4 September 2006, 05:33 AM

Your view is valid from your perspective so please do not think otherwise

Don't think otherwise? I don't get what you're trying to say. Do you mean he shouldn't think that;

a) His views aren't valid from his perspective
b) His views aren't valid from anyone elses perspective
or
c) His views are valid from other people's perspective

Or were you just trying to be patronizing by saying "Awww, It's ok, you can keep your views because they are relevent to you, but in actual fact they are wrong"?

I think you need more clarity in your posts, too many misunderstandings.

**Jamie Robson** · 5 September 2006, 10:41 AM

'Respect'

Yeniseri

You have written your reply to Sipak Anthony in a very concerning manner.

It risks being read as rude and patronising. If this was your intention, please apologise immediately. Sifu Anthony is a highly respected member of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute.

Comments like yours will not be tolerated on the Wahnam Forum.

We do not train daily, travel world-wide to learn or teach and courageously uphold the Shaolin Laws to then accept rude comments from amateurs.

You have been warned.

**Antonius** · 5 September 2006, 01:51 PM

Actually, Jamie, I'm not really concerned with Yeniseri's tone. I'm more concerned with his penchant for spreading misinformation. In case you didn't see it, I tackled this topic here:

Revealing False Statements

**Antonskafar** · 6 September 2006, 04:37 AM

Dr. Yang Jwing Mings Chin Na

Some clarity on this topic.

My experience with Dr. Yang.
I have completed 5 out of 6 Levels of Dr. Yang's Certification course on Shaolin Chin Na.
Meaning, that I have learnt over 100 Shaolin Chin Na Techniques.

Every Technique I learned from Sifu, has a Chin Na application in it.

His Chin Na can be universally adapted to other Martial Arts.
Dr. Yang was fearfull that Chin Na was going to become extinct. This is why he created his Chin Na certification program.

Chin Na was largely tested on and created in Prison camps with POW's in Ancient times.
Chin Na gave the soldier a battlefield advantage.
If your enemy could get locked for a split second, then the soldier could follow up with a killing blow. Whether it was a Fist, Foot, Throw, or weapon.

Old Masters Secret

Chin Na was taken to many a masters grave. If the student was exceptional, then it was one of the last things the master would teach.

As a student grew up, they would be physically stronger than their Master.
The Master would grow old, and become physically weaker.
The Master was still able to defeat their students by using Chin Na.

You have to be taught by an experienced and qualified master to really get the idea of Chin Na. 90% of people that think they know it... Don't know it.
Reading from a book, and watching a video is only 20% at best.

Personally,

I would like to see Sifu offer a Chin Na course.
In talking with Dr. Yang, it was his intention to encourage other masters to reveal their Chin Na to the world just as he did.

Best wishes,

Anton

**Alex McArdell** · 6 September 2006, 09:26 AM

Like Siheng Anton, I too would love to see Sifu teaching an intensive Chin na course. Perhaps one day in the future? Lets hope so.
Alex

**Baguamonk1** · 9 September 2006, 05:47 AM

Once basic IMA principles are physically learned, one can apply almost ANY type of Chin Na (most IMA chin na comes from shaolin chin na anways..) in the IMA method. To say they are both completely different is both half true and half false. If you can stick, adhere, 13 postures, etc. Then you can apply chin na HOWEVER you want. And it is still "Taiji chin na" also there are many different types of Taiji Chin Na, wether you know it or not YJM has a book dedicated to Taiji Chin Na that is COMPLETELY different from his Shaolin White Crane Chin Na....

For example Chen Taiji Chin na, and Yang Chin Na look very different....Chen having much more emphasis on them.

Also sophisticated does not always mean superior, or efficient. Also if you know human anatomy fairly well, especially the bones and how to use nerves properly (and pressurepoint grabbing), it is not that difficult to come up with your own "flavor" and combination of Chin Na. There is only so many ways the arm and legs can bend...Almost all External and internal arts (in standing grappling ) share the same techniques...Some just have different ways of going about it, Eagle Claw, for example, likes to use fingers and wrist strength to press and subdue opponent with pressurepoints/nerves. Taiji uses the momentum of opponent so he locks himself out, but the actual "locks" aren't all that different. Just because some styles give "Examples" of how to enter and apply the lock does not mean that it will always work that way, or that you HAVE to do it that way. In Taiji Chin Na, you could choose to press the cavity points if you wished..that does not mean its not "taiji chin na"

Also I think the argument that is going on here is a bit ridiculous. Yen might of been rude, but Ant was a bit rid in his first comment too (saying that other wasn't entirely accurate when he himself wasn't 100% accurate). Who cares? Honestly.

And yes Chin Na can also mean trapping as yen said, as was taught to me by bagua teacher. You can trap legs and even Chin Na them from a standing position (using Kou and Bai), very simply actually. To Shaolin practicioners it doesn't look like Chin Na, but it is..I wish I could share more, but then it would be revealing some of Bagua's secrets

**Antonskafar** · 9 September 2006, 03:39 PM

More clarity on Chin Na

I think we need to have absolute clarity on the topic of Chin Na.

As we all know, Chin Na translation, Chin = to capture, Na = to hold.

The Chin aspect.
This is the engine in setting up the hold. It is the process of how to grip your opponent and what exactly is being done to control your opponent upon first contact.
You must capture your intended target. eg. fingers, wrist, elbow, neck, waist, knee, ankle etc...

The Na aspect.

Your opponent is not able to move. He/she is held in whatever position the Practitioner chooses. eg. flat on the floor, standing on toes, or immobilized in their position.

Let us examine the different levels of Chin Na.

Physical, Technique, Kung, Speed, Marvelous.

Physical

A person that doesn't have Chin Na skill but knows simple anatomy will work on a physical level to lock up an opponent.
Common examples, wrestling moves that move into joint locks. Arm bars, Leg locks etc..

Combat wise, the person who is bigger will win the outcome of locking up the person, unless the opponent has some skills in techniques.

The engine used is Physical force.

Technique Defeats the Physical

80% of First physical contact in an altercation involves grabbing.

If a person has techniques on how to grab, eg. Chin Na, then they can easily follow up with a finishing move. eg. Punch, Stab, Kick, or Fell.

The Anatomy of the technique.

All Chin Na techniques must have:
1. Twist
2. Bend

The combination of these two principles is what makes Chin Na effective in the locking application from the first contact of the grab.

Without these two concepts, You are simply not applying a Chin Na technique.

What about Cavity points, striking, pressing and grabbing, you might ask?

Grabbing vital points still involves the Twist and Bend aspect in Chin Na, but isn't limited to.
Pressing vital points is the Na (Holding) aspect.
Striking vital points is a different topic than Chin Na. eg. Dim Hsueh, Dim Mak

The above three aspects are not Chin Na, they are different topics.

In Learning Chin Na, 20% is the technique. 80% is the feel of how to lock your opponent.

If you learn Chin Na from a book, a video and not from an experienced teacher, at best you will be 20% effective. Even if you practice with a partner.
The usual result of trying to apply a Chin Na lock involves a person physically exerting force to apply the lock.
Sorry, this is not Chin Na.

Good Chin Na is effortless. It requires the same effort as doing the motions in the air. eg. the same effort in swatting a fly.

Kung Defeats Technique.

If a person has developed internal force, they can apply Chin Na with devastating results.

Simply gripping a person would be sufficient in subduing them.
The effects last after the technique was performed.

Some examples are, torn muscles, tendons and or ligaments. Broken Joints, and bones, Nerve damage, Knock out, Paralsis, and even death.

eg. Sifu applied a Chin Na lock on me in October 2005. He flipped over my wrist and pressed a spot on my spine at the same time.
My arm went numb from the shoulder down, and I couldn't use it for 15 minutes. I practiced Chi Kung to bring the arm back to normal.
If that was a combat situation, I would have been incapable of continuing.

Speed Defeats Kung

If you have mastered the Technique, and the Feel, then you can surprise your opponent and apply the Chin Na lock.

A good example is the surprise lock in doing White Crane Nods Head.

Anyone that has an open hand towards you will go down if they are not prepared to deal with that technique.
You have less than 1/10 of a second to react correctly.
1/10 of a second in finishing a fight.

At this level, you can apply Chin Na in an actual fight. In the lower levels, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to apply Chin Na in an actual fight.

Marvelous Defeats Speed.

Marvelous Chin Na Deals with 2 things, but not limited too;

1. Intent
2. Feeling

A master of Chin Na applies the Lock on a Mind/Spirit level.
He can capture the the intention of his opponent, and hold the opponent previous to physical contact.
eg. A person is locked up, and doesn't even realize it, until they try to move.

Best wishes,

Anton

**Baguamonk1** · 15 September 2006, 12:37 AM

Nice summary.

The last one you mentioned is very typical of IMA chin na.

Also BJJ takes the same amount of proficiency and "skill" as any other CMA. How do you think smaller, less physically strong people tap out others who are much bigger and stronger than them? Through proper use of leverage, tingjin, skill, and "feel." It is just as sophisiticated as many CMA stand-up grappling...

I find Chin Na, in a live one-on-one spontaenous situation very difficult to apply, even when his hand is open, if I dash towards them at high speed they will most likely take up a defensive or offensive position and hit me. It is alot easier, thanks to IMA, to apply once physical "clinch" contact has been made. It is indeed true that Chin Na, especially in modern times, is perhaps one of the most skillfull skills to apply. Simply because opportunities are very small against trained opponents, and very difficult. IMA is all about using your whole body, and leading them/following them into a lock. But even then it is increasingly difficult when you are not fighting someone who is playing by the same rules.

**HugoDarien** · 7 December 2006, 08:53 AM

Dr. Yang Jwing Ming Chin-Na Videos

Originally posted by Antonskafar View Post

What about Cavity points, striking, pressing and grabbing, you might ask?

Grabbing vital points still involves the Twist and Bend aspect in Chin Na, but isn't limited to.
Pressing vital points is the Na (Holding) aspect.
Striking vital points is a different topic than Chin Na. eg. Dim Hsueh, Dim Mak

The above three aspects are not Chin Na, they are different topics.

Anton

Good Day Sihing If you said ( like I understand) that Dim Mak is not Chin Na why did Grandmaster Yang Jwing-Ming said in his book Tai Chi Secrets that:

Chi Na(Qin Na) is Grasp and Control, an aspect of the chinese martial arts training. That Qin Na specializes in controlling the enemy through misplacing the bone - dividing muscle - sailing breath and cavity press!

So I wonder if Dim Mak is the cavity press that Grandmaster Yang Jwing-Ming mention or if Dim Mak had to do whit the things mention above?

Regards

/Hugo