kungfu Kicks Discussion

[Quatro Bajina]

We are aware that kungfu strikes are very unique. I am dare to testify that most kungfu strikes can't be find in any other MA.

Now, how about kungfu kicks? Based on my experience, I can hardly tell the difference between kungfu kicks and other MA kicks.

For example: A side kick. What differentiates kungfu side kick and TKD side kick or JKD side kick?

Based on my observations, the only difference is the stance. TKD and JKD usually bounce around and kick or the reverse. Kungfu kicks usually executed from a solid stance and get back to a solid stance afterwards.

Before everyone starts the discussion, I am here to remind everyone that we are talking about regular kicks that can be find in other MA as well like round kicks, front heel, front snap, back spinning, etc. Not the ones that are unique to kungfu like treshold kick, hook kick, stomping kicks, juggling kicks, etc. These unique kicks can be notice right off the bat.

[Jeffrey Segal]

Does Anthony pay you to put up posts like this?

I'm looking forward to the answer as soon as our Siheng in NY wakes up!

[Quatro Bajina]

Jeffrey Segal:

No, I wished he had though...I am short in cash right now ^_^; (J/K)

Now back to the topic:

The reason I post this discussion is because this has been my biggest question ever since I learn kungfu.

In addition, I am not a kicker (I am a striker, but I guess you know that since I learn Hsing-I) so my expereince in kungfu kicks is pretty limited. The only kicks I learn are in San Da and Hsing-I kicks. However, the kicks in Hsing-I can't be found in other MA, so I can't actually compare them...

[Antonius]

The four “basic” kicks are:

"Happy Bird Hops up Tree" is similar to thrusting Side Kicks from other styles. We are careful to guard our groin with our hands. The kicking surface is the heel. Some targets are the liver, the heart, and the ribs.

"Naughty Monkey Kicks Tree" is similar to a Muay Thai Roundhouse kick, but ours is done more from the knee than from the hip. Our is also more upright. Again, our hands are guarding our groin. The kicking surface is the shin, and some targets are the solar plexus, the ribs, the liver, and the heart.

"White Horse Presents Hoof" is a thrusting front kick that also uses the hands simultaneously. Generally speaking, this kick requires a "bridge," i.e. a hand/arm already on the opponent. With the bridge, you can open, close, or grip the opponent while kicking. The striking surface is the heel, and some targets are dantian, liver, heart, or groin. If there is no bridge, the hands will at least become a "top shadow."

"Yellow Oriole Tests Water" is a tricky kick usually aimed at the groin. To be compassionate, we tap dantian instead. If done correctly, this kick shows no shadow. It does not telegraph. Furthermore, the hands simultaneously strike at the eyes. If the top strike is blocked, it becomes a feint and the kick becomes real. If the top strike is not blocked, it becomes real. The kicking surface is the toe or instep.

I have never seen another style do this kick as well. Usually, the strike comes before the kick, or the kick is telegraphed with the shoulders, or the strike comes after the kick. Giving away yet another of my secrets, I feel that I can land this kick about 95% of the time, and that's against people who know the defense! It is a formidable technique.

Kicking is more dangerous than many people realize. I've had my leg "shut down" by simple Kungfu counters like "Single Whip Saves the Emperor" or "Cut Bamboo with Branches” more than a few times, and I'm a smart kicker. When these counters are packed with internal force, they really REALLY hurt and can numb your entire leg. This is not fatal, but try continuing a fight with one useless leg.

Furthermore, kicking disables the majority of the "17 Stars." (The 17 Stars are the major striking surfaces: toes, heels, shins, knees, hips, shoulders, elbows, hands, head.) When I punch, I still maintain use of the majority of the other 16 Stars. When I kick, I lose the use of many Stars, making it more difficult to deal with surprise counters.

This is not to say that we should not kick. Many Shaolin masters, like Wong Fei Hong and Fong Sai Yuk, were famous for their kicking techniques. The key to kicking in Shaolin (aside from the differences in form) is that we use kicks "unobtrusively." In general, kicks from other styles are far too obvious. Even our basic kicks are subtler, let alone more unusual kicks like “Lazy Tiger Stretches Waist” or the “Clutch Kick.”

Quattro, I'll send you the check next week.

[Quatro Bajina]

Antonius:

Thanks for the reply. It's nice to hear a reply from a kicking specialist.

What's a top shadow? Is it like Hsing-I where you punch and kick simultaneously? The punch is never meant to score but just to trick the opponent. Is that it?

Just out of curiosity:
How do you train kick anyway? I always find it extremely hard to get the right distance. While I am good in judging striking distance, I am terrible with kicking distance. This is the main reason why I just concentrate on striking. ..

PS: Thanks for the check ^_^

[Antonius]

What's a top shadow?

It is bascially a distraction or feint with the hands used to set up the kick. So in addition to the bottom attack having no shadow (because of its form, speed and timing), the top DOES have a shadow, which serves to draw the opponent's attention.

How do you train kick anyway?

There are many, many different methods to train kicking. The most important of these is to kick, kick, kick, and kick. Stretching is also very important.

Personally, I practice at least "100 Kicks" every day, and often more. The way that I throw these kicks varies. I have many different methods. I also vary the kicks themselves.

I always find it extremely hard to get the right distance.

This is a matter of practice, not only alone, but with a bag and a partner. Finding the proper distance is much harder with the feet than with the hands.

You are able to get the correct distance with the hands because you know where the end of your fist is. You have trouble with kicks because you don't yet know where the end of your foot is. This is common. Many people use sloppy distancing when kicking.

Here is a method you can practice alone:

Practice kicking a wall GENTLY, but without putting the foot on the ground. For example, practice "Happy Bird" against a wall, but keep the leg in the air the entire time. Kick the wall 10 times with your heel as gently as you can, then switch legs. The kick should reach the wall at about 90-95% of its full extension. You can do the same with "Yellow Oriole" and "White Horse," but "Naughty Monkey" will be more difficult.

If you practice this every day for a year, your distancing will improve significantly. Your kicking strength will also improve. However, this method does not train other skills necessary to use the kick in sparring or combat.

[Quatro Bajina]

Antonius:

Thanks for the suggestions :-)

[J.J.Binks]

Kicks

I use a lot of kicks when in competition, that is not to say my kicks are really good, my hands are just really bad. I find that the outside crescent kick and the hook kick work pretty well if you them b/c most people are used to kicks coming from the other direction so sometimes you can hit them upside the head. It probably won't knock them out, but I have scored some points with them. Having studied, Ninjutsu, Tien Shan Pai Kung fu, and San Shou/Kickboxing, I have found kickboxing and Tien Shan Pai have similar kicks but each one has some that the others do not. Ninjutsu had kicks for many different situations; many of them were unique. In kickboxing, I was taught to try to hit them with my shin. In real life I probably wouldn't kick above the waist but in tournaments it works well. I became a firm believer in leg-kicks after my last San Shou match. This guy kept kicking my leg and I didn't feel anything (adrenaline) but as soon as the fight ended I started limping. One thing that surprised me in Tien Shan Pai was they said you could either pivot on your foot when executing a roundhouse kick or open the foot wide first and then kick, keeping the supporting foot still. In kickboxing, I was taught to open it first then pivot on the ball of the foot when performing a roundhouse kick. I found I can get more power this way and I personally don't really like the other way. Kickboxing contains many different kicks and even more variations on each kick. There are a lot of fakes, such as a side kick that looks like a round kick or a round kick that looks like a front kick. One time in a San Shou main event I saw one fighter block a high roundkick w/ his forearm. Everybody in the casino knew that his arm was broken. It was really sick. The clip is available here http://www.marvinperry.org/armbreak.htm
This taught me one thing: some guys have metal shins.

[Antonius]

If you practice this every day for a year, your distancing will improve significantly.

I thought about this during practice this morning. You don't need to practice for a year to see results. If you practice daily for a month or two, you should start to see good results.

Another method to improve your kicking is what I call Kick Walking. I don't know what Sifu calls it, but he taught it to me years ago. The idea is simple. Throw left kick, then right, then left, then right, moving across the room as you kick. Then do the same thing, but Kick Walk backwards across the room back to your starting point. Do it with"Yellow Oriole," then "White Horse," then "Happy Bird," then "Naughty Monkey."

When you step forward (or backward) after each kick, place the foot on the ground with control. You should not make a heavy "thud" with each step. Try to keep some momentum between each kick so that you flow, like walking. Focus on fluidity, form, control, and speed, adding power gradually over time.

Sound simple? Try it for a week.

[J.J.Binks]

I love doing that!

I do basically the same drill, albeit with the kicks from my style. It makes practicing kicks a lot more fun and effective. It is fun to mix them up i.e. front kick, side kick, round kick or side kick snap kick, hook kick. Sometimes I alternate feet sometimes use the same one twice in a row. Antonius is right, this drill will produce awesome results in a month. And it seems like a lot of martial artists focus on boxing and hand techniques, so it isn't very hard to have relatively good kicks, and some people don't know how to counter good kicks because they focus on boxing. Oh one more thing I have learned and would like to share...watch out if you throw a roundhouse kick whether it is to the head, leg, or body, because the opponent can step straight in (thus getting inside of the kick) and land a big punch. I have seen many people, including yours truly, knocked out this way.

[Jeffrey Segal]

JJ, In Taijiquan we love to use a technique called Repulse Monkey against roundhouse kicks (which are called Naughty Monkey kicks tree!). It involves stepping in and felling the opponent. Sounds like it's quite similar to what you describe in your post. As you say, it can be quite a surprise for the naughty monkey.

I'm enjoying this thread guys. More please

[Quatro Bajina]

Antonius:

The Kick walking that you describe is what the northern kungfu practice as a warm excersise. I saw my sifu drill the students in this type of ways.

J.J.Binks:
Most MAist train in boxing extensively because they have the notion that kicks are useless in real fight. They just basically take out one important arsenal in their belt.

Jeffrey Segal:
Hey that's a nice technique. In Hsing-I we coil it around one arms to catch it, and step in and strike the exposed groin with the other hand.

How do you throw the opponent? Did you hook the other leg?

[J.J.Binks]

Wow

I never knew Repulse the Monkey could be used in such a fashion Jeffrey. That is similar to what I was describing, but Repulse the Monkey seems even better, as sometimes people using the standard technique of moving forward can still bear the brunt of the blow if the do not get inside of the knee. Tai Chi Chuan seems great, since it does not rely on muscle, I just wish I had the patience for it

[J.J.Binks]

Quatro

I know...shame isn't it? Just think, if an attacker even THINKS you MIGHT kick or knee him the number of weapons he has to worry about has been greatly increased. Of course, the kicks themselves can be very powerful, but I also think they have value in that the threat of them can set up hand and other techniques. Sometimes though when you fight people less experienced than you when they kick you can punch them because THEY are distracted by their own kicks and not thinking about the upper body. I find that people better than me can often punch me when I throw leg-kicks.
BTW, boxers have not been as successful as one might think in the mixed-martial arts tournament that I have watched...they usually end up on their backs and they are lucky if they get a punch off, let alone land one. This whole thing about a "puncher's chance" is sometimes a very very small chance. This is why in a real fight I am more scared of a wrestler or jujutsu practitioner than a boxer (other things equal of course).

[subclock]

Sifu Wong has said many times that one of the reasons that Martial arts like Shaolinquan and Taijiquan have such effective responses to the moves of a boxer , or wrestler , is that their fighting techniques are limited to the rules of their sport , and are not intended for realistic combat . Taijiquan , for instance , was never intended to be a sport , and therefore caters for any combat situation .

Also , even if you are not good at kicks , they can be used to lure your opponent into a trap . eg: He will think you prefer using kicks if you use them often ,and when the timing is right you surprise him with your more skillful hand techniques .

Kevin