Stance Training vs. Standing Meditation

[joko]

Dear sisters and brothers brothers,

I have just finished my daily morning practice, and gratefully I have understood or realized another experience in our art.

While performing Stance Training, physically we are motionless. The same applies when we perform standing meditation, physically we are motionless. To an ordinary observer, physically there is no difference. In both instances, we are standing still, motionless.

If we include the 'Wuji' stance in Stance Training, what is then the difference between Stance Training in 'Wuji' Stance and Standing Meditation?
(Please note that here the phrase 'Stance Training' is not limited in Horse Riding stance or Goat Riding Stance only, it refers to training in other stances such as Bow Arrow, False Leg, Single Stance, Unicorn Steps, etc.)

In Shaolinquan the most important stance for internal force training is the 'Horse Riding' Stance, while in Taijiquan the most important stance for that purpose is 'The Three Circle' Stance. It is also called the 'Goat Riding' Stance, and often referred also as the 'Taichichuan Stance.'

While the 'Goat Riding Stance' is the most important one for internal force training in Taijiquan, in his book 'The Complete Book of Taichichuan' Sifu mentioned that the 'Wuji' stance is also referred as the 'main' stance. (My book is the Indonesian translation, in which the phrase is 'Kuda-kuda Utama', and my translation into English as 'main stance'). When reading this for the first time some time ago, it made me wonder why is it referred as the 'Main Stance'? Is it more important than the 'Three Circle Stance'? But then the 'Three Circle Stance' is the most important for internal force training, right?

Dear brothers and sisters,

I would write about my realization about this in a few days, but meanwhile I would like to have your opinion about the question:

'What is the difference between Stance Training and Standing Meditation?'

Best regards,
Joko

[Charles David]

One is more difficult than the other.

[Andrew]

I'm looking forward to lots of thoughts and opinions on this excellent question.

Andrew

[LeeWeiJoo]

I guess the main difference would be the state of mind you adopt for the purposes of stance traning and standing meditation, though I would venture that if all things were equal, stance training would be better for building internal force whereas standing meditation would be better for a glimpse of the cosmos.

I look forward to more contributions to this thread, this is a very interesting question indeed

With Shaolin Salute,
Lee Wei Joo

[Maxime]

If I had to answer from a dualistic perspective:

stance training builds energy,
standing meditation trains the spirit.

From my experience there are overlapping factors anyway. Stance training also trains the spirit, for example, if we let that be (and I think we should).

The beauty of our practice lies on the non dualistic approach. Depending on our understanding, realization, needs and aspirations, one can emphasize the same standing meditation state of mind while stance training, thus reaping the same fruits inherent to the former skill; a glimpse of cosmic reality, a powerful feeling of peace, a stop in time...

What happens (or what doesn't happen...) in standing meditation may also happen (or not happen...) in stance training.

Stance training is much more efficient for building energy. But the difficulty in maintaining proper posture for some time (i.e relaxing both body and soul, letting go of emotions, and thoughts...) can be an hindrance for the training of the spirit, its expansion. In other words, one difficulty inherent to stance training is that it has a tendency to 'tense the Shen' (tensing mentally, emotionally or spiritually). Standing meditation overcomes this easily.

Nevertheless I have found my stance training sessions (which lasts for about 45mn) to be some moments of joy and tranquility. Maybe the energy nurtured during stance training helps releasing the spirit ('Chi Nourishes Shen').

Maxime

[mark v]

Two birds with one stone

Finding my natural calm aware mind (meditation mind), during standing chi kung, is the very point of my practice. The harder the stance the more i try (not try) to relax, yet focus. The better i succeed the better the practice.

Over the course of 45mins to a hour its a balancing act.
With my focus on the right state of mind, i find body and breath will relax and correct themselfs.
Its noy easy,
Somtimes mind feels like its riding a bucking bronco.
For me its all part of the art, and all part off the fun.
Two birds with one stone and all that...

all the best,

Mark.

[Mark Blohm]

Its noy easy,
Somtimes mind feels like its riding a bucking bronco.

Yeah.

[Charles David]

For starters:

In Stance Training energy comes in
In Standing Meditation spirit goes out


With Shaolin Salute,

[joko]

My experience

Dear brothers,

Thank you all for sharing your experiences.

I guess the main difference would be the state of mind you adopt for the purposes of stance traning and standing meditation, though I would venture that if all things were equal, stance training would be better for building internal force whereas standing meditation would be better for a glimpse of the cosmos.

stance training builds energy,
standing meditation trains the spirit.

Stance training is much more efficient for building energy. But the difficulty in maintaining proper posture for some time (i.e relaxing both body and soul, letting go of emotions, and thoughts...) can be an hindrance for the training of the spirit, its expansion. In other words, one difficulty inherent to stance training is that it has a tendency to 'tense the Shen' (tensing mentally, emotionally or spiritually). Standing meditation overcomes this easily.

Two birds with one stone
Finding my natural calm aware mind (meditation mind), during standing chi kung, is the very point of my practice. The harder the stance the more i try (not try) to relax, yet focus. The better i succeed the better the practice.

In Stance Training energy comes in
In Standing Meditation spirit goes out

In essence, what you experienced is similar to mine.

As promised, I would like to submit what I understood or experienced:

Please consider this further question:

Why stance training is more for building energy, and what makes it easier to have a glimpse of the cosmos while in standing meditation?

The answer is Chi, or energy, and Yin-yang harmony.

Have you noticed that in stance training (but not in Wuji Stance) we can remain still, practically motionless; while standing in Wuji stance we have tendency to gently swaying instead of standing still? And only in standing meditation that we can remain almost absolutely still, or motionless?

Before my Stance Training, I already had been in chi flow; and this chi flow was still circulating when I entered Stance Training.
That was when I fully understood the meaning of past master saying 'Motion in tranquility': my physical body was motionless, but inside my chi was circulating. Circulating where? Circulating around the whole body. Hence the effect of internal force building. And that is why we can be physically motionless while in stance training; this is the Yin-Yang harmony maintained in stance training.

(Then do we remember Sifu's advice about the secret of Zhan-Zhuang? At the completion of Stance Training, we should stand for some time in Wuji Stance)

So I followed by standing in Wuji stance; at this stage I still felt my chi flowing; but instead of circulating, the chi was consolidating. Consolidating where? This was what I felt: 'The chi expands and fills the whole body,' that is why we tend to sway gently instead of remain motionless.

From here, there are two alternatives:
1- Proceed into Standing Meditation, or
2- Proceed into Dynamic Chikung, e.g. Go into Set Practice, or Combat Sequences Practice.

1- Proceed into Standing Meditation:

Remaining in Wuji stance, gradually, when thinking very gently of my Dan Tian, the chi flow would gradually slow down, and the flowing chi finally concentrated or 'compacted' as a 'pearl' inside the Dan Tian, that was the stage when I reached standing meditation. When the chi has been 'compacted', that's when I really felt the 'inner peace'. I came back to where I was originated. There is another past master saying, 'Taiji has returned to Wuji'. This explains why it is easier to have a glimpse of cosmos while in standing meditation. This also explains why we can remain almost absolutely still, internally as well as externally.

2- Proceed into Practicing Set or Combat Sequences:

From the Wuji stance, while still in chi flow, when physically I reached the peak of stillness, then it is very easy then to proceed into movements to perform any Taijiquan sets, led by the flowing chi. That was when I understood another past master saying: "Tranquility in Movements". Externally I move led by my chi, and inside I am tranquil. In fact this is the Yin-Yang harmony in Taijiquan movements. And as a direct result from my previous stance training, I felt my arms were very powerful while performing the set.

Of course, at the completion of the set practice, I would go into Wuji stance, and then proceed to Standing Meditation as stated in 1- above.

As to the question about the difference between Stance Training and Standing Meditation:

During Stance Training chi is flowing smoothly;
while in Standing Meditation the chi has returned to its origin.

And now, do we understand why Wuji stance is also referred as the main stance or primary stance in Taijiquan?

P.S. This is one way of explaining intellectually. Certainly it can be expressed in many other different ways. ....., but the essence remains the same.

Joko

[LeeWeiJoo]

Thank you brother Joko for sharing your wisdom and experience with us

With Shaolin Salute,
Lee Wei Joo

[alexstedman]

Whoa

Dear Joko

First of all, I have to give you a hearty pat on the back for your experience. It is wonderful to hear how you have come to grasp what past masters have said, and understood it experientially and not just intellectually. This really is something many people in the world would give one of their limbs for, and very few understand

Although I am not a Taijiquan practitioner, I have also had these little light-bulbs go off in my head about concepts and such. Not to the degree that you experienced (all in good time!), but little things like the six harmonies, 'simply adjusting' and moving beyond techniques. Most of the time it will happen in the presence of Sifu, but sometimes it will just blossom from a practice session. These moments fill me with excitement as I understand a new depth to kung fu.

I look forward to the time when I achieve what you have already done

Warm regards
Alex

[mango]

As a new student I find this very exciting! I can't say that I really understand much of the above at the experiential level, but I can now see the possibility in the future that I will understand it, and that in itself is something thrilling for me.

I think I know a little what you mean with the distinction between wuji stance and standing meditation. It's like a natural progression where the body sways in chi flow and then naturally settles into stillness in which mind and matter start to integrate. But, up to and including my most recent practice session, my mind still has had the habit of cutting in to describe the experience.

[Steve Clarke]

stances training vs standing medatation

Hi Joko,

When you said that chi returns to it"s origin while in standing meditation,were you refurring to your Dan Tian?
While practicing the Horse Riding Stance focus should be gently on your Dan Tian to build chi,internal force.
While practicing Golden Bridge you can have no thoughts, lose sense of your self and time,I believe a relaxed completly empty mind makes it easier to have a glimps of cosmic reality,and can be obtained while practicing stance or standing meditation.(standing would naturaly be easier because your mind is more easierily relaxed,stance training more advanced.)

Both standing meditation and stance traning your chi should be flowing smoothly as both are relaxation exercises.While stance training builds more internal force from my expiriance standing meditation after stance training stimulates mind and energy expansion.

Shaolin Salutations,
Steve.

[joko]

Dear Alex,

Thank you for your support and kind words.
It encourages me to share my joy in the Forum.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

_
Dear mango,

As a new student I find this very exciting! I can't say that I really understand much of the above at the experiential level, but I can now see the possibility in the future that I will understand it, and that in itself is something thrilling for me.

I had similar feeling like yours when I read what past masters said about the wisdom in Taijiquan practice. Until I realized the secret which I will elaborate later.

I think I know a little what you mean with the distinction between wuji stance and standing meditation. It's like a natural progression where the body sways in chi flow and then naturally settles into stillness in which mind and matter start to integrate.

Please read further, to my next answer to Steve's question below.

But, up to and including my most recent practice session, my mind still has had the habit of cutting in to describe the experience.

Now, that is the secret revealed to me by Sifu in my April 05 Chikung Course. What is the secret?

Sifu mentioned that the wisdom stated by past Master was the explanation that the Master tried to explain his experiences to his students or to his friends. First, the Master experienced it, and then later he explained it when he thought necessary.
(If we remember that words are limited, and take into account the differences in culture and language, most people nowadays do not understand.)

So, the key to practice Internal Arts is not to try to have the experience based on any intellectual explanation while practicing, even if the explanation comes from Masters.
However, knowledge of Master's sayings is useful when we try to explain something after we experience ourselves.

I am sure you learned during your Course with Sifu, that first Sifu let you experience first, and only later discuss with the other students about the experiences that you had just had.
And how did Sifu let you have the experiences? That is what is called as 'Heart to Heart Transmission'. In other words, the internal arts is not taught, it is transmitted. (Well, the transmission inludes teaching, too).

After the course, you already have 'the skill', which then you can use in your daily practice, which is not necessarily linited to the patterns that Sifu gave during the course. You can expand it on your own, using your acquired 'skill'.
__________________________________________________ ___________________

Dear Steve, thanks for your question.

When you said that chi returns to its origin while in standing meditation,were you referring to your Dan Tian?

Chi concentrarting or 'compacting' in Dan Tian is the transition between 'Standing in Wuji Stance' and 'Standing Meditation'. From the view of an ordinary observer, the physical appearance looks similar, e.g. 'standing still in Wuji Stance', but inside there is a difference.

That is why I put the question about this difference in my first post in this thread. This difference, I think, can be observed by an experienced observer.

When the state of 'standing meditation' is reached there is no more chi; (you might say if there is no chi, then you are not alive), but here I refer to the saying "Taiji comes from Wuji, and will return to Wuji", or in other words when chi is still flowing, then there is still Yin-Yang. Once chi has returned to Wuji, then we come back to our original, there is no Yin-Yang.
This can be expressed in other ways, for example: have no thoughts, lose your sense of your self and time, a relaxed completely empty mind, the one of which you expressed in:

While practicing Golden Bridge you can have no thoughts, lose sense of your self and time,I believe a relaxed completly empty mind makes it easier to have a glimps of cosmic reality,and can be obtained while practicing stance or standing meditation.(standing would naturaly be easier because your mind is more easierily relaxed,stance training more advanced.)

That is also the state of standing meditation which Charles expressed as 'In Standing Meditation the spirit goes out'. How can the spirit go out? That is when there is no more duality (as stated by Maxime), or no more yin-yang, or no more energy flowing.

Another method to reach this state is by 'Sitting Meditation'. I was lucky I had a chance to learn sitting meditation properly from a Buddhist monk in November 2004 and November 2005, and I attended a three-day continuous Vipassana meditation led by a senior Buddhist in November 2004.

I have not yet practiced 'Golden Bridge', but thanks to your experience sharing, I feel like to try it. I can learn to practice it, thanks to Sifu's websites and books.

Both standing meditation and stance traning your chi should be flowing smoothly as both are relaxation exercises. While stance training builds more internal force from my experience standing meditation after stance training stimulates mind and energy expansion.

That is the secret in Shaolin Stance Training, which Sifu mentioned in his Q&A about Zhan-zhuang. Sifu further stated that without this upright standing (others called Wuji) stance
immediately after the Horse Stance training, then most of the results would be lost.

Yes, the chi should be still flow smoothly in Wuji stance after Horse Riding Stance, but as I stated earlier, instead of circulating around the body, I felt the chi expanding, spreading and fully filled my whole body, which I referred it as 'consolidating'.

You experienced it as 'simulates mind and energy expansion'.

If you remain and maintain the state, gradually you would feel another feeling, a kind of experience which LeeWeiJoo stated as 'take a glimpse of the cosmos', Maxime stated it as
'standing meditation trains the spirit', while Charles stated it as 'the spirit goes out'.

But you might experience it differently, and hence would express it in your own unique way.

That is meant when I said 'chi has returned to its origin'.

Warm regards,
Joko

[Jamie Robson]

'Too much blah blah blah'

Zhan Zhuang -
Build
Mind at Dantien

Standing Meditation -
Store
No Mind

'No Tension , No Thoughts , Smile From The Heart'

Harmony of Shen Chi Jing.