Left and right

[Simon]

At the London class yesterday I was asked whether we were going to swap around and do the combat sequences on the left as well as right side.
It was then suggested that a martial art that did train this way would be more flexible and therefore superior.

My muddled, long and not to the point answer included these points:
The first set you learnt, Lohan Asks The Way, does include both modes of attack and defence for each pattern.
The combat sequences, like Wahnam as a whole, are more focused on skills rather than techniques. If we have twice the techniques and hence twice the sequences we would only practise each one for half the time and only be half as skilled.
My next related point was that when practising sequences we are developing skills, like timing and spacing, that can be applied when using any technique. This is clearly seen when watching students progressing to each higher level of sequences. Each time the fundamental skills of the previous sequences are taken for granted and the students use any new patterns with the same skills, for example, in timing and spacing that they have already learnt.

The main reason for this thread however was vague notion I've picked up somewhere of each hand having it's own roll. And I don't mean a hungry man on a picnic. I mean a sort of General and army.
Anyone got any ideas?

Cheers

Simon

[Jordan_LM]

Hi Simon,

I've heard this question asked a few times myself. Other points I can remember being mentioned are:

1) Although we might not practice mirror versions of each sequence, we do focus on both left and right modes of attack and defence. For example, in sequences 1 - 4 we focus on left mode, and in sequences 5 - 8 more time is spent attacking in right mode.

2) Yes, we may end up with a week side, but er..... well it'll still be stronger than had we done no training at all (I'm sure whoever said this to me made it sound much better than that).


regards,
Jordan.

[Jonny Say]

Dear Jordan

2) Yes, we may end up with a week side, but er..... well it'll still be stronger than had we done no training at all (I'm sure whoever said this to me made it sound much better than that).
Jordan.

I liked your first point, not sure I understand this one. I wouldn't say we have a weaker side. In the beginning (and later on if one chooses) we specialize certain patterns on certain sides. E.g from sequences 1-4 we get a very powerful Black tiger from the left stance. Sequences 5-8 we get a very powerful Fierce Tiger from the right stance. Because we use internal force, over time, as our skill of channeling and our level of force increases all our strikes become powerful.

As our mental clarity and combat efficiency increases we get better at striking or creating openings which ever side they are appropriate from.

As far as I understand (there are probably many more reasons) but the sequences are kept simple to emphasise skills. Both sides are strong if we train effectively. It is best to be excellent at a few patterns that cover all angles than mediocre at many!

There is a lot of depth to go into on this subject so Ill leave it at that for now!

[cnholmes]

Is right left out? Or is left right out?

Sifu answered this very question at the Special Intensive Kungfu Course last year. He recalled Sigung Ho Fatt Nam saying "You don't need to learn to write with both hands".

Regards,
Chris.

[alexstedman]

I asked a very similar question at the beginning of my training, and got an equally similar response to what Johnny mentioned:

It is best to be excellent at a few patterns that cover all angles than mediocre at many!

It's funny this has been mentioned, because just a few days ago I did the Black Tiger Steals Heart set on the other side than usual. How different it felt!! It felt like I was starting over again. I did think about training the sequences on the opposite sides, because I thought this would double my defense/attack techniques.

I decided not to follow this method of training though. Mainly because I remembered the advice given about being excellent at small number of patterns than average at many. I practice individual patterns on both sides anyway, so that would also give me opposite modes, right?

In the end, I think training on both sides is a lot of time and effort for not many results. We are training for combat efficiency here, not just combat (amongst other things ).

Warm regards to all!
Alex

[joko]

Sifu answered this very question at the Special Intensive Kungfu Course last year. He recalled Sigung Ho Fatt Nam saying "You don't need to learn to write with both hands".

I also remember Sifu mentioned at one of his websites, something similar in using the computer or typewriter keyboard. The left hand and the right hand has its own specific duties in hitting the keys while typing.

Regards,
Joko

[Maxime]

Dear brothers,

this question reminded me of a point I wish to submit to you.

Training to answer one attack at a time is one thing.

But...how would you answer a multiple attack at the same time? For example, a Right Tiger Claw to your face and a Left Tiger Claw to your abdomen, at the same time? or a Snap toe kick to your groin and a Level Fist to your face, at the same time?

If, for various reasons, you cannot escape those attacks, you will meet them with your both bridges. As both attacks are not aimed at the same direction, each bridge will have to follow a distinct direction too, and maybe, with a slight difference in time.

The success will depend, among others factors, of the ability to use both bridges independently, i.e freely, without the tempation of leading with the right hand (if it is your main hand) while the left hand follows the right without independance (thus, missing its own defense purpose).

Thus, might it be necessary to train ambidextry?

Just some thoughts, your opinions are most welcomed.

Shaolin Salute (left palm and right fist at the same time )

Maxime

[Lok]

just a few days ago I did the Black Tiger Steals Heart set on the other side than usual. How different it felt!! It felt like I was starting over again. I did think about training the sequences on the opposite sides, because I thought this would double my defense/attack techniques.

I know all too often how this feels - we even did this in class just past (well, past few classes) and I always seem to end up fumbling my left Black Tiger Steals Heart and my right Single Tiger Emerges From Cave

However, in light of this thread it reminded me of later in that same class I was practicing attacks and defense with one of my Sihing's and he demonstrated, using only Single Tiger Emerges from Cave, how effective it can be at any of my attacks and no matter which side I come from.

Of course, my attacks leave a lot to be desired still, but that doesnt detract the fact that he was only using a technique taught to me in one of my first lessons in Shaolin Wahnam, and I was using anything from Lohan Asks The Way.

In hindsight, he had a much easier time than I did in that drill!

[joko]

If, for various reasons, you cannot escape those attacks, you will meet them with your both bridges.

.

By bridges do you mean the forearm? I wonder why it is referred to 'bridge'. Is the name 'Golden Bridge' derived from this? Could someone please offer an explanation?

Thanks,
Joko

[Maxime]

.By bridges do you mean the forearm? I wonder why it is referred to 'bridge'. Is the name 'Golden Bridge' derived from this?

Yes Joko

The term 'bridge' is often used in Shaolinquan for 'forearm'. I believe, because your forearm allows the connection between you and your opponent, like a bridge connecting the two banks of a river. 'Bridge' might also refer to the delivery of energy to your opponent, through his own 'bridge' or not.

Different schools might define the different types of 'transfering' the energy through the forearms to the body with different names. For example, the well known 'Twelve Bridges' (Sup Yee Gee Kiu) of Hung Gar. In this system, one may find the 'Soft Bridge' (Yao Kiu), the 'Hard Bridge' (Gong Kiu), 'Dividing Bridge' (Fun Kiu), etc...

Those like us who have at least a small practical experience of sparring will relate the subtle differences to their own practice. Even for a beginner, the contact and delivery, if we put attention to it, is not really the same depending on the opponent, the type of attack and defense, our own mental state, etc...

As far as Golden Bridge is concerned, I am pretty sure that 'bridge' here refers also to the forearms (please seniors correct me if I am wrong ).

Hope that it helps.

Maxime

[Andrew]

This is indeed an interesting topic. I remember one of my first Kung Fu students ...... I was teaching Black Tiger and noticed (as one would) that he was performing it in the right bow-arrow stance with his left fist rather than as I demonstrated and taught it (i.e. in the left bow-arrow stance with the right fist). When I asked him what he was doing he replied "I'm left handed".

His answer was excellent and completely valid for his level of understanding at the time. Until that point he (and I assume all left-handed people) simply learned to do everything right-handed people did in a mirrored fashion.

I gave him simple explanantions as to why we perform it on the right side rather than the left. He, being a good student, accepted my explanations and practiced it on the right side. Funnily enough, he told me how awkward he felt later on when we did practice the same technique on the left side .

It may also be of interest, that many consider certain martial arts, including Shaolin Kung Fu, to be right-handed or at least have a bias for right-handed people.

Of course this is not the case .......... but rather than continue ---- do you (readers) think that the energy systems of a left-handed individual are also mirrored compared to a right-handed individual? And is the brain also mirrored?

Andrew

[Darryl]

Yin & Yang

Dear all,

Always remember that a bridge can be used from both directions. A poor application of a Bridge can actually be of more use to your partner/opponent than to you .

A skillful use of a Bridge (as Loki found out) can result in you countering your partner/opponent so efficiently they are left helpless. A casual or half hearted use of a Bridge is a gift to your partner/opponent and as we all know, it's rude to refuse a gift

So the same answer from a different direction - technique is no match for skill. This doesn't make technique useless, but it does highlight why we focus on skill development.

how would you answer a multiple attack at the same time?

In the most appropriate manner

[Simon]

some good points raised by everyone, thank you.

I think Chris and Joko, with their Sifu quotes, come closed to what I was trying to explore.
"You don't need to learn to write with both hands".
"The left hand and the right hand has its own specific duties in hitting the keys while typing".

Does the 'duty' of each hand change when the forward foot changes?

So far, which isn't very far, I can only think of one defence with the rear hand but six, and still counting, with the front hand.

Attacks are more even between the hands but maybe slightly more from the back?

Cheers,

Simon

[Maxime]

Dear All,

my post is not exactly related to Simon Sihing, Joko and Chris points on specific duties of the hands. In this regard I agree humbly with their expertise on the subject. My post is closely related to my own question and Andrew Sihing's:

And is the brain also mirrored?

Just my thoughts.

No, the brain is not mirrored. The left and right sides are not mirrored, and scientific research since the 70s has proven that both sides are in charge of their own specific duties (and not only the fact that the left side of the body is controlled by the right hemisphere, and vice versa). Such 'duties' integrate different emotional, spatial, intuitive and logical aspects of the Human Being, like different talking (intellectual) vs drawing/singing/dancing (artistic) centers.

For example, as I am writing those lines, my left hemisphere is in charge. When I was happily singing under the shower this morning, my right hemisphere was in charge.

But all this is only intellectual stuff. I am not particularly interested in it.
The skin of Kung Fu is intellectualizing, the bone of Kung Fu is practice, the marrow of Kung Fu is fighting (the real test).

When I was asking the question 'how would you answer a multiple attack at the same time?', I had in mind that one should not lack the skill (not the techniques) to use both his left and right hands in a totally independant manner, with fluidity and smoothness, at the same time. I mean, the left hand does what she wants and the right hand does what she wants, without each of them tied up to what the other is doing.Techniques are not the relevant part here, as suggested Darryl Sihing.

It has been truly inspiring for me to realise that I was not totally in charge of my own body. This is normal, I am a beginner. And my guess is that some students can't either.

Maybe we could try an experience.

Start at the Ready Position. Ask your training partner to attack you with two different attacks aimed at two different levels, at the same time, without you knowing what patterns he/she will use. For example, he/she may strike you with a Black Tiger to the solar plexus and simultaneoulsy deliver a White Snake to the throat. Or a White Snake to the throat and simultaneously a Snap Toe Kick to the groin. Try several times. My guess is that many of us will fail in defending against those two different level attacks performed at the same time, when we can succeed more often when there is one attack followed by the second. Your hands might get the 'staccato' or mental blockage syndrome, with an unwanted stop or indecisiveness.

Why? Because of inedaquacy between both hemispheres. The 'weaker' hemisphere will automatically 'follow' the strong one; in other words, one hemisphere is not fully in charge of its side of the body when the other is sollicited at the same time.

Leonard De Vinci, in one of its Codex, adviced to 'draw from one's most lefted hand'. It is interesting to know that this master was able to write from both hands simultaneoulsy, as well as drawing one illustration with one hand and another illustration with the other hand.

I would like to know what you guys, who are much more skilled than me, think about this.

Peace

Maxime

[Simon]

Hi Maxime,

I'm reminded of old men in Chinese parks who walk slowly backwards writing mirror imaged calligraphy with a long brush in each hand. The water from the brushes leaving a trail of words along the path.

Enough of being a travel bore, back to your point.
Often a simple movement is enough to counter to strikes. For example in the Dragon Tiger set is a pattern where the attack is with a finger strike to the face and a dragon's claw to the groin, both at the same time.
The defender does not have to individually defend each attack but simply does a precious duck. This pattern, when done from bow stance, moves the head away from the top strike (but you can still cover it with the back hand) and the twist of the hips cuts off access to the groin preventing the lower strike. At the same time the punch hits the attacker! Three moves in one.

If all that sounds complicated just taking a step back will avoid all attacks even if your opponent uses all of his limbs at once.

Multiple attackers may require a few more steps! But this ain't the thread for that.

Cheers

Simon