Against Muay Thai

[grammatoncleric]

I've finally been able to watch the clips after downloading DIV X.

I would have to say after having previous training in Muay Thai, the counters seem to be quite advanced. They seem to require, good timing, distancing, speed and golden bridge.

To absorb a Thai kick with your arm would probably result in a broken arm for the those without Golden Bridge. (watch some K1)

The defences also seem to require excellent speed, there seems to be 3-4 counter techniques to the 1 attack.

Also a mistake I noticed was that in the knee defence clip, Sihing Darryl was holding the back of the neck. Thai boxers hold the base of the skull, it makes it almost impossible (unless your a nei jia boxer) to pull your head up. Try it on yourself.

My intention is not to offend, I used to do Muay Thai, and still have a love for it.

On a side note here is some beautiful Muay Thai solo training

http://www.elbowko.com/vdoclip/newwo1.htm

[Darryl]

Which ones?

Hi Marcus,

Can you post the video link(s) so that people know which video's we're going to be talking about

Cheers

[grammatoncleric]

http://www.shaolin.org/general/videos-muay-thai.html

[Antonius]

Hi Marcus,

If you look at this video here, I don't see any real problems. Of course, any technique will require good timing and distancing. These are beginner's skills.

As for Golden Bridge or a lot of force, I don't see where Sihing Kai uses much here. He's avoiding the strong points of the kick, i.e. the shin.

As for speed -- those techniques don't require a lot of it. An intermediate student could do all of them effectively, although it would require a lot of practice. Mostly, Sihing Kai is "starting later but arriving earlier."

Best,

[grammatoncleric]

Dear Sihing Antony,

Thanks for the reply.

Silly me, I should have watched it closer, I thought I saw him connect.

But anyway that aside, I disagree. Coming from an external martial arts perspective that all techniques require good timing and distancing. If you are talking from Wahnam kung fu training then I obviously can't comment.

But from Muay Thai grabbing someone round the back of the head and plowing a knee into the chest requires little, ditto a low kick (unless your aiming for a specific target of course).

As for speed I would disagree, the Thai boxers after even 6 months I sparred against, would probably kick more than once, and if space is closed down they'd grab, knee and elbow.

Counters against that kind of distance closing from a kick were also taught to me within a month of beginning.

I believe from my experience that it would require more speed than the opponent. I know as soon as you come in range (if we are talking strictly sport muay thai) pushing against your face, grabbing, elbowing and kneeing would commence.

[Antonius]

Dear Sidai Marcus,

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying that Muay Thai takes less skill and less time to be formidable? If this is what you are saying, then I certainly agree with you. Even Sifu Wong suggests that, if all you want to do is fight, then Muay Thai would be quicker route than Shaolin Kung Fu.

Nevertheless, I think it's worthwhile to remember that Sigung Ho was not just a Muay Thai boxer, but a professional one. He gave it up for Shaolin Kung Fu. In this regard, I'm sure that the counters Sifu learned from Sigung were imminently practical.

Similarly, Sihing Kai is an expert in Muay Thai. His counters are certainly effective. I once had the "pleasure" of being on the receiving end of some of these counters. I am not trained in Muay Thai per se, but my kicks are solid. Sihing Kai had no trouble countering my kicks. These counters were very effective (read: painful), and left me little room to counter back.

Best,

[Sifu Stier]

Anyone interested in checking out some great Traditional Style Muay Thai will enjoy watching Panom Teerum (Tony Jaa) in Ong-Bak: Muay Thai Warrior. He is fit, fast, and effective! The film's trailers can be viewed at:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368909/trailers

Enjoy!

Sifu Stier

[subclock]

I had a very meaningful and mutually co-operative conversation about Martial Arts with a good friend of mine who has been trainined in Muay Thai , Wing Chun , Kickboxing , BJJ , systema , etc. etc. etc.

It led to some very interesting ( and mutually beneficial ) sparring .
The general flow of the session was this :

(spar spar spar I get hit . we stop )
Me: What technique was that ?
Friend: It was from Wing Chun . would you like me to show you how it works ?
Me: Please !

(friend teaches me the technique . I suddenly realise that I do know the counter )

Me: I think I know a good counter for that . Would you attack me ?
Friend: Sure .

( it works a few times very well and I am able to strike my friend, but mostly he is able to overpower me )

I think the times it didn't work are because;
1) My friend is a very good fighter ( Very hard arms ! )
2) Those techniques are not something I train every day and I am therefore still applying them without enough skill .

Friend: That is an amazing technique actually ( Fierce Dragon Crosses Stream ) . Could you please teach it to me ? I want to use it for sparring in Muay Thai .
Me: Sure .
etc. etc. etc. etc.

Basically, we both learnt a lot from each other . Both of us still want to practise what we practise, and we are both a little wiser .

My point is . If I can apply the techniques fairly well in friendly sparring, then I see no reason why someone my senior could not apply them in a real fight against a well-trained Muay Thai Kickboxer .

My opinion is that to try to meet the speed and power of a Muay Thai Kickboxer head on is not smart . i prefer " Start Later , Arrive Earlier " and I hope I can put it into practise better the next time we spar .

Also, the techniques that TaiSihing Kai demonstrates, that show him stepping 'into' the opponents kicks are not the same as meeting the force head-on . He is stepping out of range of his opponents strike point ( in this case I mean the Shin ) . You can achieve the same affect by retreating but you don't gain any advantage . I am sure I remember Anthony Sihing bringing this up on another thread but I could be wrong . By stepping past the shin 'into' the opponent you create all kinda of opportunities . I will be the first to admit that these are not always very easy opportunities to take, as I learnt with several failed attempts against my friend . The point is that with minimal training in the technique, I was able to counter the attacks and apply the counter effectively at least a few times . I think this makes it very valid .


Sifu Stier,

Ong Bak was amazing ( there is a link to my thread about Ong Bak at the bottom of the page ) . My only problem, is that I thought some of the fighting started veering into the realm of fantasy ( like some of the flying all over the place stuff in the final showdown ) .

I am no Muay Thai expert, but some of the moves in the movie looked very effective and also beautiful to watch . The set he practised in the beginning of the movie was wonderful to see .

[Sifu Stier]

Agreed...totally! I really enjoyed the movie as well, and also very much liked the traditional form set, which I hadn't ever seen before. I hope there'll be a sequel film, too.

Take care ~

Sifu Stier

[Tapio Raevaara]

Agreed...totally! I really enjoyed the movie as well, and also very much liked the traditional form set, which I hadn't ever seen before. I hope there'll be a sequel film, too.

In that case, you'll want to see Tom Yum Goong. It has been discussed here, too. Many of the same actors - including the leading role, Tony Jaa - it's often called "Ong Bak 2".

Sorry for this off topic comment. Please do carry on, I'm enjoying this thread immensely.

[grammatoncleric]

Dear Sihing Antony,

Just to clarify I wasn't doubting if the techniques could be used by wahnam students who had experience against fighting muay thai boxers, or have been practicing a while. I was arguing that beginners, as the video is titled, could effectively use them.

But then again in hindsight I have minimal experience with Wahnam training. I'm willing to believe your methods may train one in timing, distancing, and speed fairly quickly.

Dear subclock,

Thanks for the information. Experience is, of course, more valid than the thoughts in my head.

Again just to clarify, I wasn't accusing you guys of not being able to pull off the techniques, I was doubting the level of skill it takes.

'My point is . If I can apply the techniques fairly well in friendly sparring, then I see no reason why someone my senior could not apply them in a real fight against a well-trained Muay Thai Kickboxer .'

I disagree that, that is a good basis for comparison (again I'll just emphasize I'm not doubting your seniors fighting ability). I'd guess, (not having one, but having a few confrontations, and some sparring... not bragging I swear) that all out competition fighting is a different situation than friendly sparring. In friendly sparring, in my experience, techniques aren't fully commited, you don't have the same intent, you don't get punished for your mistakes ie. getting KO'd.

[Jamie Robson]

'Direct Experience'

Dear Grammatoncleric

We met in Canterbury last summer. You asked about our counters to Muay Thai students, being one yourself. Our counters worked very well on you.

They only thing that changes between Free Sparring and Competition is 'state of mind'.

Free Sparring - 'Oh he is my Brother/Sister. My Sifu/Sigung is watching. It's nice and safe. If I get hurt we stop for Chi Flow.'

Competition - 'Aaah! He is a stranger! He's getting paid to hit me! I don't feel safe! No time for Chi Flow!'

If we don't allow this to happen, there is no problems in the mind. Just in the ribs if he/she is better.....

Respect

[grammatoncleric]

Dear Sihing Jamie,

thanks for the reply. I do recall you guys kicking my ass.
It was also clear to me you guys - by looking at the way you moved - were skilled, I wouldn't call you guys beginners. I believe shortly afterwards that you were made an assistant instructor, so my perception was correct.

I would disagree with the summary (although I am aware it is nothing more than a summary), about difference in state of mind. Maybe in wahnam state of mind from friendly to all out fighting, that is true, ie. anger isn't present etc.

However I recall vividly the difference in my mindset and others I know, when we swithch form friendly, to all out. In sparring we would laugh, exchange ideas, and be concerned if we hurt the other person.

In all out, our mindset was pure controlled aggression, we wanted to hurt, break bones, and were only concerned about your destruction. Not to brag (I don't think it's anything to brag about), and not to take away anything from your skill (I still have the video, I know you could kick my ass ) but I was laughing, and didn't have any ill will towards you, when you showed me your skills. My demeanor, and intent is very different when I go all out, I don't care about your safety, and I don't laugh.

I recall myself and a friend of mine sparring he knocked me semi-conscious on a couple of occasions, (he boxes in the army). But during sparring he was concerned about my well being, and we laughed. When he got into a fight in a nightclub, pure aggression came out, quite frankly he scared me, even though I know he wouldn't hit me, and I was pulling him off the guy.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One last thing, I'm going to put this in caps so maybe people will notice it,

I DON'T DOUBT THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE BEYOND THE BEGINNER STAGE AND HAVE GOOD TIMING, DISTANCING, AND SPEED, CAN PULL OFF THE COUNTERS. I QUESTION IF BEGINNERS CAN.

Everyone's so touchy around here .

[subclock]

Everyone's so touchy around here .

Haha , I hope that is not the tone I gave off with my post ! I wasn't even directing my comments at anyone in particular . I was addressing everything I had read in the thread so far .

I agree with pretty much everything you are saying . I just want to say that I don't think I can really answer your question with a general answer, because there are a few different techniques that we are talking about ( unless I missed something ) . Whether or not a beginner would be able to apply it in a real life combat situation is not relevant, because in my opinion, if you are still learning the technique and are not comfortable using it yet then you shouldn't be using it in a fight .

When a person goes full steam into a fight with no regard for their own safety it can be very dangerous ( for them and for you ) , unpredictable , and intimidating . But I have noticed that those sort of people rarely show much control in applying any techniques . They merely overpower their opponent while their adrenaline is pumping . Actually I have never had someone come at me like this because I avoid fighting . I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the world and I can tell you, sometimes you do nothing at all wrong to anybody and you are targeted for violence . This is very sad but it is not the norm . Most of the more violent assaults are commited by people the victim knows, or were the results of the victim provoking the aggressor over the edge . If you don't start trouble you will be able to avoid it a lot of the time .

But let's just say that I am in this situation and there is no way out . I have to fight . Then I would use only my most direct and effective techniques . The ones I train every day . Actually a situation like this is very sad, because if the attacker is completely off his head with rage and you are not very proficient, you are going to have to hurt the person to stop them .

If we are talking about single techniques then I would say that yes, a fresh beginner could learn and correctly apply a pattern like Fierce Dragon Crosses Stream ( demonstrated in the video clips by TaiSihing Kai ) in a very short time ( like one day ). If we are talking about applying it against the theoretical 'madman attacker' then I think we are getting too scholarly about the whole thing .

I say this because it is not techniques that will dictate the victor in combat but skill .

Friendly sparring is not the same as the 'madman' scenario, but then again I can't think of any situation where a Professional Muay Thai Kickboxer would assault you with everything he had when you had not done anything to make him attack you . The only situations I can see it happening is if you had to go pick a fight with someone . Otherwise we have competition sparring which is also very different from a real fight .

Actually, a friend of mine who has a passion for competition fighting showed me some K1 videos . Many of those fighters appear to train Muay Thai Kickboxing ( although if any of it is traditional I am not qualified to say ) , and I have noticed that the ones who rush in without control, usually end up unconscious minus a few teeth .

Against people like in K1, I don't think a fresh beginner ( as in very little MA background ) would be able to apply those counters at all . Against a fighter like that you need experience .

I look forward to reading more . Please don't mistake my enthusiasm for confrontation . I am just enjoying the chat

Best Wishes ,
Kevin

[Darryl]

I wouldn't call you guys beginners

I would

Jamie first learned that technique in the video clip you posted. I don't have the exact date, but I think it's April 2004. Jamie would have had about 6 months training prior to that, then just over one year to practice the technique before he met you. If you are saying that, after one and a half years, you would not count my beginning students as beginners, then thank you. I am sure they would be pleased by your words but in all honesty, they are still beginners.

an assistant instructor

Merely being competant with techniques is not enough to be an Assistant Instructor. It may be in some schools, but certainly not within Shaolin Wahnam and definitely not within mine. If anyone meets or trains with my Assistants, they will see why they were promoted - they have heart. In your post, you confuse aggression with heart. They are not the same, in life or in combat.

The technique (to stop a Muay Thai roundhouse kick) only requires one movement, but it does require heart. Saying at Dan Tian when everything goes banana shaped -- also covered by this drill -- maintains heart.

They seem to require, good timing, distancing, speed and golden bridge

A requirement for the Warrior Project is to be at least Level 2 in our syllabus. All of the things you mention are introduced by then .

Back to the clip itself, the technique does absorb the kick via the arm. I agree with you that this could be a very foolish application, running counter to our basic teachngs (Safety first, Train Smart, Soft on Hard & Hard on Soft). As others have noted, the fundamental skills (Spacing and Timing) cover this nicely.

As to the neck grab - different schools of Muay Thai teach different grips . I trained at one where we were to grab the thumb of the left hand with the fingers of the right hand, pull with the lateral muscles and use the forearms as a pincher. Another taught to have the palm of the right hand on the back of the left hand. Yet another taught to crank the head into the chest, as you describe. Another still is to hold the shoulder and neck and 'spring' into the strike. To cover multiple ways of gripping the neck would, to me, be a poor use of time.

In the clip, the grip is countered first, then the knee. In actual time, it's one movement.