kung Fu and Knee problems

[Tim]

Inside Kung Fu magazine had an excellent article reporting a common problem amongst Wushu practitioners - Knee problems. Usually the pain can be traced to incorrect stretching or stances. Knee problems are also common with other style martial arts as well, unfortunately a large number of practitioners are forced to give up their practice.

This is indeed a pity, especially when many martial artists commit much time, effort and practice into their art.

Before discovering Shaolin Kung Fu I also had severe knee problems, largely caused through Karate and Kick Boxing training. At first, sitting in the stances we practice in Shaolin Wahnam was difficult, especially false leg stance. Over time I was able to over the knee problems through practising certain Chi Kung exercises and stance training.

It is unfortunate that many Wushu athletes have to suffer such trauma and pain due to incorrect postures and practice. At least now it is a problem that is being recognised by the sport. Part of the problem is over extending the knee., this is a common mistake not realised by many people. In Shaolin Wahnam we pay particular attention and time to ensure that students practice correct form to avoid injury.

Whether you are practising our system or not, may I recommend to you that you check your posture in stances and stretches to ensure you are not extending your knee over your ankle. If you do suffer from knee problems there are many simple exercises you can practise to help overcome this problem.

What exercises have you found helpful to overcome this common problem?

[Alex McArdell]

I too sustained quite severe knee injuries from several years of kickboxing and karate. Then in 2001 I went to China where I began to study Tai chi Chuan.
The master would often leave me to stand in one static position for several minutes while he corrected my friend's form. Although I had no knowledge of Zhang Zhuang at the time, I luckily knew it was always best to relax as much as you could when under strain. Even so, this was extremely painful for me, particularly when holding the false leg stance or any stance with the majority of weight on the back leg. I was also made to repeat a certain part of the form again and again. Wahnam Tai chi chuan practitioners will know the form as 'Open window to look at the moon'. The constant repetition of sinking the weight back and moving forward again grew to be excruciating. After a few weeks of this I was reduced to the point where I could barely stand. Then one day the pain was gone and never returned. Although my knees were healed I not sure I'd recommend this to anyone as a way to heal their knee problems as it seemed quite extreme at the time.

Alex

[Luo Lang]

Dear Tim,
Interessting question indeed!
Presumed people are able to generate a Chi Flow, of course:

From my humble experience I would say following exercises are very useful for kneeproblems, but also for legproblems in general:

-Deep Knee bending exercise (this one is working wonders!)
-Three levels to the ground
-Rotating knees or circulating knees?
-Horseriding stance (Some people may be surprised ,but i have used this one and it literally worked wonders)
-Any Self Manifested Chi Kung exercise

Respectfully,

Roland

[chris3212]

-Rotating knees or circulating knees?

I found this works well. Doing about 30 rotations each way (clock wise and anti-clockwise) and doing them slowly really helps.

[George]

'Rotating knees' worked wonders for me - instant pain relief (total pain removal most times.)

[Tim]

Hi Lex,

Stance training also worked for me. Prior to going to Malaysia a couple of years ago to study on the Intensive Kung Fu course with Sifu Wong I injured my right knee. I was barely able to walk on it, let alone sink into a false leg stance. The day before the course Sifu's son Chun Nga kindly put us through our paces with stance training. I was encouraged and guided through sitting in False leg stance on my bad leg for over a 20 minute period, we then sat in goat stance for I think around 40 minutes. With the help of Chun Nga my knee problem was gone.

It is interesting to think that certain injuries can be overcome if we are able to generate enough chi to flow through that area to clear the blockage. It is my understanding that the pain is a sign that the chi is no longer flowing harmoniously.

Luo Lang,

Whilst being able to generate a chi flow (in the terms in which I believe you mean) is certainly a plus it is not a necessity to help people avoid a knee problem. If you are able to generate a chi flow though then it would make sense that it well speed up the healing process. I guess we are very fortunate in Shaolin Wahnam to learn about Chi Flow so early on, that is probably one good reason why we suffer from less injuries in training. And even if we do suffer from an injury we can often overcome it.

George,

Rotating knees certainly works well and is good for overcoming a problem. I understand you recently went on the intensive course in Malaysia with Sifu, were you shown how to make greater use of rotating the knee whilst moving in your stances? (something that I also covered at the Three Nations Gathering)

[George]

Rotating knees certainly works well and is good for overcoming a problem.

(Just in case I used the wrong name, I was referring to the pattern from 18 Lohan hands.) Fortunately for me, the worst problem that I had with my knees was them being sore after training (most likely due to incorrect form.) As I improve, this is becoming less and less of a problem, so I rarely have to use this wonderful pattern now.

I understand you recently went on the intensive course in Malaysia with Sifu, were you shown how to make greater use of rotating the knee whilst moving in your stances? (something that I also covered at the Three Nations Gathering)

Yes, Sifu did specifically point out to us the importance of rotating the knees to avoid injury, as part of teaching us how to move from one stance to another during stance training, as well as when moving in stances. Not only that, but he also pointed out that correct use of rotation will actually strengthen the knees (not just avoid damage.)

[Luo Lang]

Whilst being able to generate a chi flow (in the terms in which I believe you mean) is certainly a plus it is not a necessity to help people avoid a knee problem. If you are able to generate a chi flow though then it would make sense that it well speed up the healing process.

Hi Tim,
I agree with you.
I misunderstood you slighly
Out of your question I was not sure if you were asking for things which avoid a kneeproblem, or which can be helpful if a problem is already there.

My answer was given to the question what can be done if there is a kneeproblem, to speed up recovery. With knowing that somebody has to practice those exercises as Chi Kung, otherwise he would miss the benefits.

To avoid kneeproblems:
I absolutelay agree with you that correct stances, correct ancles, correct moving in stances(with correct kneerotation) is highly important.
Further more doing this exercises correctly, you may strenghten you knees and get them powerful.
Nevertheless I am still convinced that another great tool to avoid creating blockages, also those at the knees s is the importance of enjoyable Chi Flow after those exercise or after you finished other addes exercises.

Out of my experience:
The first 12 month I was sitting far to low in my horsestance. Probably I was creating a blockage in my knees (It feels like if I am trying to do it again like this). Actually I have never got any problems, because I was able to perform some other exercises like The Art of flexible legs and the Art of 1000 Kicks and what I would say because along enjoyable Chi Flow after those exercises. The Chi Flow in my opionion is a necessity to avoid greater damage or blockages in any part of the body, but also menthally, emotinally and spiritually.

respectfully,

Roland

[Tim]

Hi Roland,

Sorry for not being clear on my question. Of course you are absolutely right, to avoid injuries then correct stances, movement and use of is an essential part of our training. Prevention is often better than the cure, and as you say when we rotate our knees whilst moving in our stances it can actually strenghten our knees.

Sifu once said to me rotating the knees in stances is like an internal massage, this sounds very nice to me. Add that to the ability of chi flow and we have a great recipe for good health and a long life of training.

[Tim]

If you would like to see Sifu Marcus Santa and other students in action at the Three Nations Gathering moving in stances click on the link below.

http://www.shaolinwahnam.co.uk//3Nat...e/CIMG2684.wmv [/URL]

[Luo Lang]

Dear Tim,

Sifu once said to me rotating the knees in stances is like an internal massage, this sounds very nice to me. Add that to the ability of chi flow and we have a great recipe for good health and a long life of training.

Many thanks for highlighting the kneerotation out. Actually this is something which often get forgeotten, allthough it showes much much importance. So, thanks again.

Many thanks for the useful link.

Warmest regards,

Roland

[Luo Lang]

I was encouraged and guided through sitting in False leg stance on my bad leg for over a 20 minute period, we then sat in goat stance for I think around 40 minutes.

so much about Chun Nga's teaching lessons. I had a similar lesson with my horse . Needless to say that it broke every timerecord I have ever had, without noticing it

Respectfully,

Roland

[Tim]

Hi Roland,

This is true, Chun Nga has great ways to help you sit in your stance for long periods of time, apparently 2 hours in one stance is quite normal for him.

I remember when I first started force training my mind would go to my knees when the stances became challenging, Chun Nga reminded me to place my mind first at my feet. He instructed me to allow my energy and weight to sink down into my feet, this would allow me not to become fixated on the knee and also become rooted. Once my energy flowed and I became rooted I again gently focussed on my dantien.

The sensation I got was quite amazing, I went from having severe knee ache to feeling like it was no longer ME putting any effort into the stance, the stance was supporting me. This was all achieved though correct focus and relaxation- a real gift from Chun Nga that I am grateful for.

Kindest regards to you Roland.

Tim

[joko]

Hello, everyone.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I had an opportunity to sit together with Chun Nga at our graduation dinner. What a wonderful time it was!

Joko

[Daniel]

Hello all,

There are many exercices for keeping the knees healthy and strong, like Rotating Knees, 3 Levels to the ground, etc... But if you just practise your kungfu movements and forms correcty--with good footwork, bodywork and energy flow is more than enough, stance training, standing meditation and others are also ok.

greetings