"Brown-nosing" in Shaolin Wahnam?

[Zhang Wuji]

Dear all

I was in the middle of writing a post on the Taijiquan and Shaolinquan courses when I logged on to check the forum. I read with great interest the exchange between StierSifu and Kevin in the Shen Men Tao thread.

Again, those posts have provided me with a great opportunity to write a post that has been germinating in the back of my mind for ages now.

First off, let me say that I like both Stier Sifu and Kevin immensely. Let's forget for a minute that I am a Shaolin Wahnam student (and very privileged to be one ). I am afraid that Stier Sifu may find me most presumptuous and out of line if I say that our Taijiquan lineages have something in common, given my very rudimentary skills. Still, that Yang Shaohou is my lineage forefather is a fact, and for that reason, I respect StierSifu as an elder in my lineage. I am also grateful to Stier Sifu; you have been very kind in answering all my questions, irritating though they must have been.
As for Kevin, though we have never met, I feel a certain resonance with you, perhaps because we are both apologetics for the faith. I have also found your posts mature and moderate, well argued and intelligent. I would have loved to have you by my side when we were defending the Catholic faith against attacks from Protestants (I must say though, the Catholic-Protestant divide is something I now steer clear of, and something Jesus certainly would not approve of).

That long paragraph is not meant to portray myself as some sort of neutral UN peacekeeper. People who try to take no sides tend to piss all sides off, or to put it another way, the top of the fence is a dangerous place to be. I just wanted to take this opportunity to say how I feel about both of you.

And now for the issue at hand - Organisational politics and "brown-nosing". Let's begin with a basic premise - loyalty is a virtue, and a highly valued one. No Shaolin Wahnam disciple or any member of a martial arts sect/school would knowingly slime their own group. The corollary of that is that they would be supportive of each other, and help grow the group, and to perserve, pass on and glorify their art (in Chinese 将本门发扬光大) (Some of you may have noticed this is just a variation of the Buddhist precepts of "Do no evil, do good and cultivate your mind")

Those who have followed my posts on this forum would know I have had disagreements with other Shaolin Wahnam members on this forum, particularly when I felt I was being personally attacked. Just because one is part of a group does not mean that one conforms like a robot or behave as a cog and wheel (even if we are in fact One).

At the same time, as members of Shaolin Wahnam, we have a duty to stand together and be cohesive. I have gone through my posts and found that some of them, like those Stier Sifu refers to, may be interpreted as "patting other Shaolin Wahnam members on the back". Such posts are common in our forum, being what Christians would call "mutual edification" (Rom 14:19) even if they seem cheesy to others (this is where my English fails me, would those who can translate this word help: 肉麻)

The reason for such posts is that this forum is first and foremost meant for the development of Shaolin Wahnam members. It is only natural we tell each other "good job", "well done" etc even if it may not be true from a third party's perspective. For example, if one of us had written dim-witted account of a rather uninspiring qigong experience, that writer would still find encouragement, simply because a) he took the trouble to write and
b) he is one of us.
And yet, none of us lie when we say something positive. As Sifu likes to say, words are provisional, and are used in context and for the situation in question. "Good" for a novice is very different from "good" for a master.

I believe it was Darryl who said that this forum is a closed (close?) one with open doors. Other schools are allowed to air their views, which we truly appreciate as such views tell us where we may be wrong or help us do better. But this is still the Shaolin Wahnam forum, and the core function is the training of its members.

Visitors may sometimes have the impression that we gang up on those with views different from ours. The most vivid examples that come to mind are the CFQ and what i call the "Alberto" posts. While that is quite a valid impression to form, my personal opinion is that this is merely the result of a mathematical law. There are more forum members than guests, and most guests are just lurkers. The odds of a member posting are therefore far higher, and being members, they would believe in our school's teachings (or cease to be members). Naturally, when someone writes something insulting or offensive to Sifu, the instructors or just a divergent view, members may respond in support. The problem is that they often do so simultaneously, or even if they see replies already being posted, feel so strongly that they simply have to get their words onscreen. I seriously doubt there is ever a conscious attempt to overwhelm a single, often hapless detractor with sheer numbers.

Well, I guess I will leave it at this. I really want to continue with my other post on the courses, not to mention unfinished work at the office.

[Sifu Stier]

Dear Wuji:

As usual, your post is eloquent, thorough, and tactful. You made several excellent points, and points that I, too, have observed and considered previously, even though I may not have posted my views on them here. I also believe that you and I share some things in common, both in terms of common Lineage Forefathers, and in other ways as well.

I also feel that both Shaolin Wahnam and Shen Men Tao share a number of similarities as well, especially in regards to the circumstances of creation and development of the two Systems more so than in their respective training methods. Some similar values seem to exist in both schools as well regarding the preservation and perpetuation of Traditional Styles of Chinese Martial Arts in lieu of promoting Modern Competitive Wu-Shu Arts...among other things.

I respect and admire any and all organizations which foster these kinds of agenda priorities. That's no doubt why I have felt more comfortable to post on this Forum than any other one I have visited. Additionally, on the whole, the topics of discussion and the quality of nearly everyone's posts here is much more mature and interesting than most forums. If ever I feel a burning need to argue and debate with contentious 14 and 16 year old kids, as is often the case on other forums, I can do that right here in my own home with my own kids who would be happy to accomodate me!

I have stated more than once in the past here that I admire and respect the close comraderie, mutual support, and loyalty shared among Wahnam brothers and sisters at all levels of rank and experience. I also really like the fact...as stated in my last post in the 'Shen Men Tao Thread'...that the Wahnam Sifus generally post their real names, instead of using an Avatar name like most folks do on most other forums, and that they are willing to openly state their personal opinion and share from their personal experiences. This is a healthy ingredient in any martial art organization that wishes to survive and grow stronger over time.

However, to outsiders like myself and others, it often seems as if some ardent members take these virtues to such extremes that they either have difficulty acknowledging any value to information or views stemming from outside the Wahnam organization, or become jealously competitive in responding when they do perceive value from an outside source. In the course of maintaining an exponentially growing international e-mail correspondence, primarily with people I have only had contacts with on this and other forum boards, I often hear these people say that they now only 'lurk' in the shadows and follow the discussions, but don't post anything because they feel that they lack the knowledge and experience, or the courage and convictions necessary to deal with united group adversaries bearing down on them when the group disapproves of them personally for some reason, or disagrees with their views. I can certainly understand how these folks feel.

Expressing mutual support and cohesiveness among fellow group members when responding to non-members is a good thing for any group in my opinion, but I sincerely believe that gratuitous group politics, courting favor with group Seniors, and so forth, should be saved for group only events or private correspondence and communications.

Lastly, minimizing the contributions of outsiders and ganging up on them as a group for a game of 'our brand is infinitely better than your brand' is not a good thing for the group...and not good for the forum. It casts the group in a poor light, and seems unfair to outsiders, which quite possibly discourages many of them from joining your organization. That can then ultimately end up being self-sabotaging to the best interests of the Master, the group organization, and the Forum!

[Andrew]

....minimizing the contributions of outsiders and ganging up on them as a group for a game of 'our brand is infinitely better than your brand' is not a good thing for the group

And this is valid for all groups -- even for groups which are not part of nor associated with the host group. Oh dear, I just agreed with Sifu Stier does that make me a traitor .

Oh well. While I'm at it I'd like to add a couple of more serious comments:
- I do not recall Shaolin Wahnam members claiming our system(s) are the best for everyone and any one. We do, however, claim that the system(s) we practice are the best for ourselves --- that's why we practice and teach them.
- As has been mentioned before, practitioners of other styles and systems as well as non-practitioners are as welcome here as our own members and students. Especially welcome are those who contribute positively towards the learning experience which this forum has to offer and those who come here to learn.

Andrew

[Sifu Stier]

Dear Sifu Barnett:

Nice post! You definitely stated the best reasons for anyone to devote their time and energy to the practice of ANY style or system. And from my point of view, when we find ourselves in agreement with those who practice other styles or belong to other organizations, that doesn't make us a traitor to our own group by any means. It merely means that Great Minds often think alike...LOL...and that our values and beliefs can in fact be validated by other like-minded individuals who are not a part of our own group! A novel concept to some folks no doubt, but very true nonetheless! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic!

[Alberto]

I like very much the reflections on this thread. As a "victim" of some of the behavior described by Sifu Stier I also agree with many of the points of Wuji.

I think that many people during his life had or have deep convictions in some matters and also is willing to fight against someone "attacking" that beliefs. But times goes on and as Sifu Jeffrey wrote in one of his post is very useful to read previous posts months or ever years later without the passion of the moment.


With Shaolin salute

[Andrew]

And from my point of view, when we find ourselves in agreement with those who practice other styles or belong to other organizations, that doesn't make us a traitor to our own group by any means. It merely means that Great Minds often think alike...LOL...and that our values and beliefs can in fact be validated by other like-minded individuals who are not a part of our own group!

And with a quick search I can easily find instances where every Shaolin Wahnam instructor here has been in agreement with, congratulated and even sincerely thanked Sifu Stier and other contributors from other styles and systems for their comments or insights.

So on the topic of this thread, we should either cease to thank and congratulate everyone (that would surely be counter-productive) or to continue to do so for everyone where it is merited. Just because this is the Shaolin Wahnam Forum it does not mean we should treat our own members with less respect than non-members.

Andrew

[Sifu Stier]

Agreed! I, too, believe that appreciation and congratulation should continue to be given to everyone when it is merited...without exception.

Additionally, to follow up on Sifu Barnett's observation, a reading of past posts will reveal that I in turn have also offered such responses to Shaolin Wahnam members...and others with whom I am not personally associated...on numerous occaisions when I sincerely that it was merited and well deserved.

[chud]

As for Kevin, though we have never met, I feel a certain resonance with you, perhaps because we are both apologetics for the faith.

Hello ZhangWuji, thank you for your post. I will just say that I hope that all of us in the faith can learn the benefit of preaching the Gospel without words (i.e., through our actions). It is something that I struggle with every day, so I am no better than anyone else.

I hope you all will bare with me while I share a few things about my Sifu. Sifu Stier has been studying martial arts since before I was born, and I am not a young man. Knowing him personally, I can tell you that his experience is considerable. Even putting aside his DECADES of experience in the internal arts of Shen Men Tao, and the fact that he is a third generation disciple of Sun Lutang, Yang Shaohou, and Yang Jianhou - Sifu Stier's amount of experience in previous styles earlier in his career was enough that most people would have just stopped there and gone ahead and opened a chain of schools in shopping malls. He balances all of this with the heart of a teacher.

This is the reason why I drive a great distance on a regular basis to study with SifuStier, even though there are many other schools much closer to where I live. I don't say all this to brown-nose, it is just respect, the kind of respect that I know all of you have for Master Wong Kiew Kit (who I also respect).

Peace to all.

[MoMoJuice]

Dear Wuji and Sifu Stier,

Thank you for your honesty in your posts, I agree with the points that you have raised here and appreciate the time and effort you put into writing them. I always like reading your posts very much, they make me think and use my brain more

The way I see it is that most of us who practice genuine traditional martial arts have the same goals, or are looking for the same result in the end. But not all schools and systems are the same, even though the goals are similar, the means of how to get there might not be. If everytime there is a small difference here and there and we make it into a big fight, then we can never have a constructive discussion for the benefit of everyone on the forum.

Back on topic, as for outsiders feeling that members are ganging up on them, I can understand where they are coming from. But I believe if they stick here long enough they will realize that this is just how the WahNam Family works, and I personaly don't see anything wrong with congratulating anyone who posts on the forum, or even telling them that the post was not appropriate, as long as it is the right thing to say/do. Hope this makes sense.

Sifu Stier has been studying martial arts since before I was born, and I am not a young man. Knowing him personally, I can tell you that his experience is considerable. Even putting aside his DECADES of experience in the internal arts of Shen Men Tao,...

Hi chud, you are lucky to have a great teacher such as Sifu Stier, I wish you the best in your search for knowledge, skills, and happiness.

Thanx to Siheng Andrew, Alberto and everyone who read and contributed to this thread.

Take care,
MoMo.

[subclock]

Drop your guard !

Hi ,

I am glad to see things are starting to settle around here .

Everyone has made great points . I just wanted to add something that I think is relevant .

Sifu Wong actively encourages his students to participate in the Wahnam Forum . Even after just one course , Sifu asks us to give our advice and support to other people even though we are ourselves beginners . I believe this is a great learning experience ( for both sides involved ) .

I think this might be a main cause of such overwhelming replies on the forum . It is not anyone's need to assert themselves, or to cram in their opinions . It is the result of us trying to follow our Sifu's wishes as best we can . It might seem overwhelming at times but it is a reflection of our love and respect for our Sifu and our School .
Sometimes people feel victimized because of this , but I think that they can learn something from that . It is a mental blockage to feel that way, even if people ARE ganging up on you online . Use what your Kung Fu or Chi Kung has taught you and take the middle path ( you make more friends this way ).

I wish you all ( members and guests ) the best in your practise and your lives .
Kevin

[MoMoJuice]

Hi all,

, as for outsiders feeling that members are ganging up on them, I can understand where they are coming from. But I believe if they stick here long enough they will realize that this is just how the WahNam Family works,..

I might have missed one sentence here. The WahNam family works by it's members supporting each other, we support our beloved Sifu, and support the system as a whole. Also from direct experience we believe in the power and effectiveness of the arts that we practice. Hopefully people from other schools won't perceive us as arrogant because of our love and support for the WahNam arts.

I think this might be a main cause of such overwhelming replies on the forum . It is not anyone's need to assert themselves, or to cram in their opinions . It is the result of us trying to follow our Sifu's wishes as best we can . It might seem overwhelming at times but it is a reflection of our love and respect for our Sifu and our School .

That was what I was kind of trying to say, thank you subclock for your post

Respectfully,
MoMo.

[Chiahua]

Casual visitors to this forum may also not appreciate the fact that this forum is a way for students to receive instruction and feedback in the absence of an actual sifu. It's a sort of "distance learning" for qigong and kungfu. Part of the learning experience in an actual class is the camraderie and encouragement coming from your classmates. In the virtual classroom, it's much the same way.

[Marcus]

Visitors may sometimes have the impression that we gang up on those with views different from ours.

Wuji, I have to disagree with you on this one.

With respect to responding to those with different views to our own, no Shaolin Wahnam instructor has ever written a reply to someone on this forum that can match the hostility demonstrated by Sifu Stier on a number of occasions. I quote:

you appear to merely post here in order to pat one another on the back, and to kiss one another's arses

This type of language is the kind I would expect from a teenager, not a Grandmaster.

I'll extend my usual offer to guys like you. My name, address, telephone number, and e-mail address are openly listed on numerous Teacher Directories. I am NOT difficult to find, and unlike you, I don't intend to be. So if and when the spirit so moves you to do so...please seek me out and show me what you have to teach me. I'd love to see it! I guarantee that you'll leave with a different perspective on who and what I am.

This is a tactic we've seen before. If this isn't intimidating, threatening behaviour I don't know what is. I have never seen a Shaolin Wahnam Instructor reply to anyone in this manner. In fact I consider such a reply to warrent dismissal from this forum.

My point is (and the quotes above are based on posts made over the last week alone) I wonder how many visitors to the forum hesitate to reply to any post made by Sifu Stier, especially if they disagree with him, out of concern for his reaction?

Whatever impression visitors may have of the reactions from Shaolin Wahnam instructors to views different than our own, I'm certain those impressions are more favourable than anyone who has seen Sifu Stier in action. We've all read the kind of welcome awaiting anyone who dares to disagree with his views.

Kind regards

Marcus


Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Kevin]

I was just reading over Sifu Santer's last post, and wanted to state that I completely agree with what he said.

I can't remember any instance on this Forum where someone who had a different view than Shaolin Wahnam was ever attacked, "jumped on", made to feel stupid, treated hostily, etc. In fact, just the opposite. All in the Wahnam family seem genuinely open to hearing and trying to understand views and opinions that differ from their own. And while they may not agree with these views, they still treat the person expressing them with kindness and respect. In a way, this shows how well they learn from and follow Grand Master Wong's example. In his Q&A Series, he often gets questions/statements from those whose thinking and ideas are completely different from his own and those of Shaolin Wahnam. Yet as long as the person sincerely and respectfully asks a question or makes a statement, Grand Master Wong answers them with kindness and openess, never belittling them or trying to seem "better" than them.

I have to admit that I was shocked by the "you can easily find me..so come on" reply from Sifu Stier. It's one thing if he disagrees with how the Wahnam Family responds to posts, but to openly try to intimidate/threaten someone left me stunned. Again, I agree with Sifu Santer that posts like that could easily keep people from replying to Sifu Stier's posts in particular, and posting on this Forum in general. I know if it had been my first trip to the Wahnam Forum, and the first things I read were Sifu Stier's last few posts in the Shen Men Tao thread, then I probably wouldn't be returning to this Forum..and as an extension, I'd probably have a dim view of Shaolin Wahnam for allowing such a person and such posts to be a part of this Forum (I don't personally have a bad view of Shaolin Wahnam..just giving a hypothetical example). And that would be a shame, because Shaolin Wahnam and its members are so positive, kind, compassionate, open..and quite simply have so many good things to offer the world.

Along with the many virtues that those in Shaolin Wahnam practice and cultivate, Tolerance is obviously a major one. However, sometimes the thing you are being tolerant of can start to have an increasingly negative affect on you, what you represent, etc. Tolerance is a wonderful thing, but as with most things it works best on the "middle" path, in moderation, without taking it to either extreme. Personally, I know it would take alot more than one person and some bad posts to even come close to negatively impacting all the good that Shaolin Wahnam stands for. I consider myself priveleged to be able to post on this Forum, talk with members of the Wahnam Family, and potentially one day learn/practice from them.

With respect to Grand Master Wong and the Shaolin Wahnam Family,

Kevin

[Michael Udel]

another opinion

Dear Sifu Marcus and Kevin,

What is going on here? Are you both still responding to recent clashes with Sifu Stier and perpetuating the recent troubles? Sifu Marcus, you've got another thread going where you repeatedly refer to Sifu Stier with terms like "shallow." I'm not saying you're right or wrong in that thread when it comes to kungfu, just that your wording is rather provocative.

Kevin, you're beating the drum quite loudly to gather opinion against someone with whom you recently got into a bit of a war of tongues. The way I read the past two posts from Sifu Marcus and Kevin, you're looking for another kind of resolution to this problem other than the one that Sifu Anthony enforced as moderator and that Zhang Wuji has suggested in this thread. I suggest that if this is the case and you're not satisfied with the current situation, maybe a small discussion offline would be a more effective way to handle it. I mean, what do you expect to happen here, would you like Sifu Stier to make some response and start the same thing in motion again? Not placing blame on either of you two, I only hope a repetition of recent events can be avoided because it's not beneficial to the forum. I'm not trying to just lay all this off on the two of you, we've all got good reason to keep the forum as high quality as always, but maybe you're the best suited in this situation to keep things amicable.

In response to one of Zhang Wuji's ideas, I think he has identified a phenomenon that occurs on this forum. I have seen situations where a single person who believes something contrary to Shaolin Wahnam has faced multiple, near-identical responses from Shaolin Wahnam Instructors and students. Each person was simply voicing their own individual opinion on a topic in accordance with all the normal rules and courtesies, but I think the cumulative effect on the lone dissenter was a feeling of being ganged upon. That phrase was actually used by such a dissenter at one time.

One thread where I think this phenomenon occurred was here.

Like I said, it's a phenomenon, not a conspiracy. Everybody involved is simply voicing their opinion, but part of the phenomenon is that there's a slight increase in intensity among people who are in agreement as they see and hear each other supporting their views: Go team. Go team! GO TEAM!! It gets louder each time, and since the lone dissenter has no team to support him, it puts him in a disadvantageous position that has nothing to do with the actual topic at hand, but is the result of being in the numerical minority. It's just something to keep in mind when we post our opinions because if someone feels intimidated by the sheer numbers of those disagreeing with him, we may all miss out on some valuable ideas he might otherwise share with us.

Best wishes,
Michael