How can i phrase this i really want to know !

[Jonny Say]

Dear Kin Tama

Originally Posted by Kin Tama

However i believe that if students trained for this , then sparring was not needed, simply because each technique would be a finisher , and one move applications with a partner at full speed should be enough.

What if your partner is of the skill level to counter your specialisation, then you need to follow up with sequenced techniques.

The stances you use to follow up are not only used to give power to a technique, they are also agile. Indeed if you are skilled with the bow and arrow stance you can make relatively small movements while a boxer (for example) bounces around you, and keep him in front where you are guarded. They get out of breath you stay relaxed. Then in order for someone who bounces to strike with real power they must put there feet down, as you are grounded already by simple laws of physics you will be slightly faster in stances.

Also;

Originally Posted by Kin Tama

training boxing against a boxing bag is no different from the shaolin art of hitting the sand bag, they both open up the meridians to the fist and thus can project chi out of the fist. So a boxer can project chi its just he doesnt feel it like an internal artist does

Ive been hit pretty hard by a boxer, and have had light strikes with internal force and I know which one I would rather take (not the internal force any harder!). Obviously a highly skilled boxer has awesome power, but it is very different force from a Kung Fu master.

Previous to my training at Shaolin Wahnam I did a lot of bag work, which definately didn't open my meridians. Infact Ive only cleared some of those blockages now!!

All the best

[Kin Tama]

Antonius, hi you ask me if i believe that statement, in short yes, as a more complicated answer no in the sense that hitting the sand bag could be done purely as a chi kung excersise but for a better explanation let me tell you a story further down.

i believe that the ability to break a brick,wether top or bottom or all based purely on internal force is something that i have not seen in shaolin wahnam, in my opinion - i may be wrong as again video is not such a good medium.
The video of ronan breaking the bottom brick i believe could be demonstrated by anyone who does breaking as it is simply a matter of physics, as you saw the brick didnt break clean through but had to be snapped apart, this is because the impulse for the break to occur is directed through the material as opposed to at the top of the material so the impulse is carried through to the bottom of the brick. Also because the bottom brick is vulnerable as it is not supported in the middle whereas the top brick is supported all throughout.

This is just a theory never actually tried it, what kind of bricks are these , our bricks are very different they are about 6 inches in thickess and have too many holes in them, could you recommend a suitable medium to try this out with.What do you believe was the reason for the bottom brick breaking ? was it because the chi was directed to the bottom brick only ?


Concerning boxers and their blocking of meridians i dont understand where this logic comes from, Also you claim boxers injuries, the amount of punishment boxers take in one fight and they are still standing i dont think 90% of people who are on this forum maybe 98% could ever take without being severly injured. I think its wrong to say they get injured because of their training is lackign.
Granted muhammed ali is near on a cripple but i think that pretty much anyone who is on this forum went through what he did they wouldn be alive.

Antonious i will tell you a story to show that not everyone understands chi as a textbook definition and is taught to feel and harness it.And why i say we shouldnt knock or put down these ppl.
I once met this guy - andy i belive his name was who was interested to learn about how to use the power of the mind and chi, this guy was a huge powerlifter style bodybuilder he wasnt a pro but he was massive, while we were talking i asked him why he wanted to learn as he could lift weight i couldnt conceive and he told me that when he was in the uk he was at the gym training and a professional powerlifter also used to work out there , one day they were talking and andy comments on the guy being able to lift obscene weights we are talking of over 350lbs of bench press for repetitions.
The guy said its all in the mind, so andy was like yeah yeah so the guy goes to him you lie down under the bench and try to move my weight, andy is like theres no way. So the guy says look you move the weight i will stand over here and i will send you my power through thought. Thats what happened, andy was the epitome of an external guy who would never believe anything like that. I think he was mentally scarred from this lol.
This is what i mean by not everyone trains internal to achieve it, his hard work through weight lifting gave him the ability to direct his energy.

The subject of breaking is quite difficult to cover as i believe a lot of what can be done with chi can be faked by using tricks to weaken the medium.
For example slapping a red hot iron , if the hands are pre covered with vaseline it evaporates causing something that looks like smoke as if your hands are singeing but you dont burn.
Pieces of wood can be soaked in vingegar and left to dry.
Stones can be baked in the oven
bricks are sometimes turned around and a thin line of acid is poured down the middle weakening the internal structure.
Unfortunatelyall these are too common in martial arts , but ive found a couple of clips i think are quite impressive, and would like to believe that this is the standard of clips i would like to see on the shaolin wahnam website.
http://www.aikijujitsu.com/guinness_...ld_records.htm
http://www.okinawan-shorinryu.com/video_clips/ (the first clip bat break)
http://www.vanderbiltkenshikai.com/W...ANbstcinmd.avi

[Kin Tama]

J-say you make the same point a couple of others did about hitting the bag, blocking your meridians , i dont understand this could, could someone explain to me the concept of Why this should happen. All other people i have ever seen whether they do karate or a style of kung fu when they hit , sand bags gravel bags or makiwara (posts of wood) They dont get any blocks, the body sends chi to the hand to heal it automatically and it opens their pathways more. Some of them do chi kung some use dit da jow some use nothing, but ive never seen anyone get "blockages" from this training.

The first point you make is the point that sparks off my wanting to discuss about wahnam, its that i dont believe that chaining together these techniques and stances you have enough maneuverability to "outclass" so to speak other styles.

[Jonny Say]

Originally Posted by Kin Tama

, i dont understand this could, could someone explain to me the concept of Why this should happen. All other people i have ever seen whether they do karate or a style of kung fu when they hit , sand bags gravel bags or makiwara (posts of wood) They dont get any blocks, the body sends chi to the hand to heal it automatically and it opens their pathways more. Some of them do chi kung some use dit da jow some use nothing, but ive never seen anyone get "blockages" from this training.

For me it was the over tension that really injured and blocked my arm, to the point I had to stop training and couldn't lift weights. Also my heart was closing making me feel more depressed and unsatisfied.

If someone uses dit da jow then this promotes chi flow, as does chi kung. But if there is no remedial exercise and there is habitual tension over along time then blockages will form, not necessarilly obvious ones (such as in my case the closing of my heart was more subtle).

I have friends and aquaintences who train externally some have injured themselves, some became more agressive and some had seemingly no symptons untill I met them again after training Shaolin Wahnam (and becoming more aware of energy). In this last group the blockages were more subtle, and would easily be missed.

Originally Posted by Kin Tama

The first point you make is the point that sparks off my wanting to discuss about wahnam, its that i dont believe that chaining together these techniques and stances you have enough maneuverability to "outclass" so to speak other styles.

On this point: my own experience is that as I have improved in Shaolin Wahnam I have felt that I could match myself in my previous training at the same level and this has continued. This coupled with observing my seniors, many of whom you have been told reached very high levels in other arts, and observing their approaches along with observing the skill level of Sigung, give me more than enough evidence to feel our techniques work.

A great example is our Sitai Gung Ho Fat Nam (Sigung's Sifu) was a professional Siamese Boxing master before training Shaolin. He was fighting reguarly for his life yet he left that art to train Shaolin. Siamese boxing was far more brutal and deadly than its related arts today. Would he have left these Arts if he thought Shaolin was ineffective. Of course this may be but a story to you, and you may well not believe it.

It seems that you feel you could not use Shaoiln techniques and that the videos do not convince you of Shaolin's effectiveness. This is fair enough as you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree that it validates the fact that Shaolin Techniques are ineffective and have been over the thousands of years they were developed. You may say that modern styles are more effective than the past opponents to Shaolin, but Id rather face a boxer than 10 armed assailents burning my house down!

Out of interest how do you spar against other arts using your style (which I believe you said was internal), do you use stances and what type of techniques do you feel are effective.

Best wishes

[Kin Tama]

Hey j-say thanks for the reply, i dont believe modern styles are more effective i just believe that they have the advantage in that they train and compete in a method that constantly separates what works for them and what doesnt.
Having said that ive never trained in a modern style, apart from studying boxing fight strategy, as well as the sanda (san shou) but even then i didnt really use modern techniques.

About how i spar, its quite weird for some people to see if they arent used to this style, i use traditional stances and traditional fist movements, kicks, but no traditional blocks, i shift out of the way, if you look at it one way it looks like kickboxing without any kickboxing moves or stances , if you look at it another way it looks like traditional chinese or japanese martial arts, without the blocks. I will check the arm in an abbreviated method of a traditional block but wouldnt spend effort pay attention or emphasis on that block.
My stance work is again different in the sense that i dont shift a stance with every move i might stay in a cat stance and just shift to the left,or even forwards whilst still in cat stance, depending on if i am still waiting to counter, i wouldnt go from cat to bow because im moving forwards, or i might end up in bow and arrow and move to the side in that stance, i wouldnt necessarily move back.
I can also spar in the way wing chun guys spar if youve ever seen it, that 100 miles an hour arm blocking method, but i dont find this effective.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Kin Tama

Some of them do chi kung some use dit da jow some use nothing, but ive never seen anyone get "blockages" from this training.

Dear Kin Tama,
First of all, thank you for this informative thread. I do have a question regarding your quote though:

How do you "see" someone get "blockages"? Those that may appear physically fit may actually have all sorts of internal injuries and tension inside.

Best,

Divineshadow

[Eugene]

As Anthony mentioned in the earlier post, I had quite an experience in Malaysia last August (2005). Towards the end of the course, Kai was demonstrating defense techiques against a wrestler. And I was the "lucky" volunteer.

I went to grab Kai at his waist as wrestlers do, and Kai simple took a slight step back and put his elbows out right in my chest. He did not really strike but simply had his elbows pointing at my chest. I gasped as the elbow touched my the left side of my chest.

In previous demonstration and sparring session I would get hit, thrown you name it, but after doing a chi flow (which I love to do), I am fine. But this time around, it was really deep. At the end of the class and for the rest of the class I could not focus as much and my mood changed. I felt sad and couldn't smile as much. The next day I told Sifu and he opened some points and I felt a great relief right away and the pain was more dull and not as focused. But that was the end of the course and I had to go home to go back to work.

It took me a month to get rid of the pain. It didnt really hurt as much outside (no black and blues) but more on the inside. Some times if I would take a deep breath it would really hurt.

I have been practcing Chi Kung for over 5 years and can over come injuries without much effort. When I go snowboarding and crash people would think that I broke all the bones. But I simply get up relax, let the chi flow and I am ok. Last summer when I was riding my BMX, I slipped and the metal spike of the pedal went right into my shin bone. (It's pretty gross) But it made a hole in my shin bone. So same as before, I just let the chi flow for a while, and kept on riding for the rest of the day (a few more hours). My point is, external injuries are quite easy for me to overcome.

But the injury from Kai was internal. Even as I practiced Chi Kung it would not go away after a few days, for me that was very strange. I went to a local accupuncturist to speed up the healing prosses. Not that Chi Kung didn't work, but because the injury was quite deep. He put some herbs on the my chest and did some accupuncture. I felt a great relief and continued to practice Chi Kung. And little by little the injuty disappeared. But the most importantly it disappeared when I completely let go of it in my mind. And now I feel better then before.

I just wanted to share this with you.

Best,
Eugene

[Darryl]

Hi folks,

A rather late arrival to this party . I have found this thread highly amusing and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Golden Balls (am I pronouncing that properly?),

I have to thank you for bringing such a great source of amusement to this Forum. Your words have brought me more laughter than anything I can remember so - thank you .

You mentioned that you were considering a course with Sifu. My advice - save your money. You have clearly reached an incredible level already, to be able to make such astute and revolutionary observations regarding people's levels of awareness and ability. From your words alone we should be learning from you!

Your gems like "Move to the side", "block" or even "move faster" - priceless (and there was me thinking that there were no blocks within any of those clips!). You can't see it, but I'm crying with joy just now. You, with your awe-inspiring lineage of "Just some guys", your lengthy experience of 14 years (and, of course, your Golden Balls) - you are able to see right to the heart of our Art and our school! Incredible!

I'm off to do something else now, but I'll post again tommorrow. Please feel free to elabourate on any point either I or anyone else has raised. I'm starting at the beginning (it's quite important to us to do this, but I don't know why), so it'll take a few posts to get up to date.

The more of your priceless observations and theories the better!

[Cymon]

Hello Mr Balls,

Please enlighten to me as to YOUR own actual fighting experience.

By the information you have so far provided about yourself, which incidently, is vague, you dont seem to have trained with anyone longer than two years, 'tried' and not learnt various styles/systems.

In my part of the world you fit the description 'Jack of all trades, master of none'.

Your comments illustrate this point.

Through your truly mediocre understanding of not only martial arts in general but 'particularly' internal martial arts and the associated energy system of meridians/collaterals and Qi you display an understanding of a complete beginner whom hasnt even grasped the basic fundamental concepts.

Been practicing for 15 years eh?

Maybe you should have spent more time learning first.

Peace and Humility.

[Kin Tama]

First to darryl and cymon i find it funny to attack me as to how long i have trained considering that you have only had intensive courses that last around 10 hours 2 times a year if that , the amount of training you have had in all your life under shaolin wahnam i have had it in only one month from a teacher of same or higher calibre.Considering sifu can give someone a lifetimes worth of training in only 1 week i guess i must have mastered abuot 7-8 styles by now

Divineshadow, when people post up about chi , and internal blockages etc how do you tell someone is blocked or was blocked , cant you see the chi ? not you particularly i mean in general on the forum. How do you diagnose the blockage that was there or was caused ? I know sifu wong mentioned his son could see chi when he practised.

Eugene thanks for posting i really aprreciate it , i must admit though, that had you not been telling me this and i heard it from someone else i would have said some people are mad.

I would like to ask a couple of things ,
1) why do you believe or were you told a reason, that you couldnt heal this with chi kung on your own , as i was having a conversation on another thread that chi kung doesnt heal everything that it cant access all levels.

2) you mention that you felt really much better when you let go of it in your mind, do you believe maybe it was this thought that you were keeping in your mind was harrassing you and making you worse ? Like omg omg ive been hit internally what am i going to do i cant fix it, and the mind was creating a bigger blockage ?