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hi everyone,
What's the diffrerence between the two? I've read in the power of internal martial arts, magnus of Java and other sources that there are core differences between the two?
I don't think there are really core differences between the two. For instance, in Sifu Wong's QA series, he said a few times that nei gong was just the name used for qigong in the past.
"The nine energies are necessary for immortality, but they are not something for any person to be allowed to come in contact with or hear about. The populus common, in their unending worry, their concern is only with riches and honors. They may well be called walking corpses." - Ge Hong
this really depends on the definition. From my understanding Sifu Wong does not really differentiate between Chi Kung and Nei Kung, but for example some other sources do (and still more others do not).
Some sources that use term Nei Kung usually differentiate Chi Kung and Nei Kung based on movement. If there is external movement it is Chi Kung and If not, it is Nei Kung. For example in Shaolin Chi Kung, "Lifting the Sky" would be Chi Kung and "Golden Shower" would be Nei Kung, but I would not use this kind of terminology. For me they both are Chi Kung. So it depends.
There are also terms Wei Dan and Nei Dan used by some texts to differentiate between external stimuli (beating oneself with sitcks for example) and internal stimuli (directing Chi flow with mind and visualization).
If we consider the Shaolin Chi Kung from the perspective these terms are used in "Magus of Java", I would like to say that Shaolin Chi Kung is more Nei Kung than Chi Kung, but does it really matter, since it is only about the semantics?
I suppose the difference is like asking the question which is better chen or yang tai ji chuan, eh?
Not really. It's not a question of better. It's just a question of semantics.
It would be more similar to asking whether or not is should be called Shaolin Quan or Shaolin Kung Fu. If you used the term Shaolin Kung Fu 200 years ago, no one would understand you. Today, if you use the term Shaolin Quan, many people won't understand you.
"The Art of Chi Kung" gives an excellent historical overview of the different names of various energy arts over the centuries.
From my humble point of view:
Chi Kung - the study and use of chi to enhance health and vitality.
Nei Kung - the study and use of chi for martial applications(fighting).
Maybe someone can correct this view.
It has been stated several times thus far in this thread that these are simply two different terms referring to the same thing. Nei-Kung translates as Internal Work....and Chi-Kung translates as Intrinsic Energy Work...so essentially...the Internal Work referenced in the term Nei-Kung is the exercising of intrinsic energy via the regulation of posture and breath...i.e. Chi-Kung/Qi-Gong.
Some methods are physically more stationary and 'meditative' and practiced in a fixed, unmoving posture...while other methods employ either a simple or complex series of different postures with or without steps. The Internal Work (Nei-Kung) or Energy Work (Chi-Kung) dynamics will have the same agenda priorities and goals either way.
The use of either term alone does not imply any specific goal in the training...such as health goals vs. martial application goals. The internal energy trained and refined through such practices...whether called Nei-Kung or Chi-Kung...may be applied to health and healing of self or others...this is my most frequent personal application...or to creative artistic and musical pursuits...or to the inclusion of internal power dynamics in martial arts techniques...or to ALL of the above!
Therefore...in my humble opinion...to further debate any difference implied by the use of either term would be a magnificent and redundant waste of time and effort! Both terms make reference to the SAME types of practices!
Therefore...in my humble opinion...to further debate any difference implied by the use of either term would be a magnificent and redundant waste of time and effort! Both terms make reference to the SAME types of practices!
Thank you for the replies Grandmaster Stier and Sipak Anthony, they were very informative. Maybe it's time to put this thread to sleep, I don't want to annoy people like Sipak Anthony and Grandmaster Stier .
I think this thread is sort of closed now, but having just read "The Magus of Java" and "Nei Kung" again, I would like to resurrect this thread.
Originally posted by Antonius
Not really. It's not a question of better. It's just a question of semantics.
It would be more similar to asking whether or not is should be called Shaolin Quan or Shaolin Kung Fu. If you used the term Shaolin Kung Fu 200 years ago, no one would understand you. Today, if you use the term Shaolin Quan, many people won't understand you.
"The Art of Chi Kung" gives an excellent historical overview of the different names of various energy arts over the centuries.
I agree for the most part that much of the difference between neigong and qigong is semantics.
Indeed, as pointed out by Sifu in his book, as well as in modern textbooks on qigong and classical texts, the term used to describe the art of energy in China has evolved over the years to be the umbrella term "qigong" today.
There is however in my mind a difference between the two, if not in substance at least in perception. While today, the two terms refer to the same thing, the native Mandarin or Chinese speakers can immediately distinguish between the two. In our minds, qigong is a modern term coined in Mainland China used to describe health exercises (although the term “qigong” was used in several classical Chinese texts – see Sifu’s book for a description in English. I will post the references in Chinese later).
Neigong has an instantly recognisable connection to the high-level martial arts. For someone who grew up on wuxia novels and TV drama, neigong conjures up images of heroes with superhuman powers. There was in fact a term synonymous with neigong back then and that was “shengong”神功. In both novels and the classical texts, the high level arts are either referred to as “xxx shengong” or “xxx neigong xinfa 心法”. If this view is accepted, then the meaning of “neigong” goes further than what its literal translation into English suggests.
In my humble opinion, neigong and shengong do not refer to arts of energy but arts of manipulating energy with the mind / awareness / higher consciousness. Qigong as used in today’s context refers to manipulating one’s vital energy for circulation and vitality, and therefore good health. In fact, this is not too far from how the term qigong was used in the past – it referred generally to medical qigong. But instead of qigong the more common term was daoyin (导引) or even yangsheng gong (养生功).
But the martial artists of old needed much more than that – they needed a skill to manipulate and control energy at will, directed by their minds. The purpose was also different – for supernormal fighting abilities or spiritual cultivation. Shengong or neigong was thus used for these type of practises. There is, if you like, a hierarchy of advancement from qigong to shengong, as reflected in the Taoist teachings of
练精化气 Converting essence to energy
练气化神 converting energy to consciousness
练神还虚 Returning to the void
Today, however, qigong will encompass what was considered shengong, which is why I stated at the beginning the difference now is one of perception rather than substance.
I would use another analogy and say that the difference is like that between Original Chinese Medicine and the Traditional Chinese Medicine of post-1949 China.
I must admit though I prefer the classification of the ancient masters, not least because I have always felt that Shaolin Cosmos qigong should be called shengong. My fellow students will surely agree…….
There is just one interesting point in the book “Nei Kung” that I thought I would bring up here. Mr Kosta Danaos said that usual qigong practices circulated energy along the main meridians, such as the 12 meridians and the 8 wondrous meridians, whereas in neigong, the circulation is along the uncommon paths. This didn’t make sense to me, but then again, I know little about this area. I do recall Dr Yang Jwing Ming stating that in normal qigong, the Fire Path is practised, ie, from the Ren meridian and up the Du meridian (Small Universe), whereas in higher levels, the Water Path is practised, ie, from the Ren to the Chong meridian found in the spinal cord. Any thoughts?
I enjoy some of the new historical examples you brought up in your post. I think it warranted your revival of the thread.
I think today's distinctions between neigong and qigong correspond somewhat to Master Wong Kiew Kit's classification of qigong into low, middle, and high level Qigong. Another example that comes to mind is when my own Sifu, Sifu Lin Yao, makes statements like "The only way to the highest level of Qigong is Qigong Meditation", I would say this is similar to what a term like shengong would imply in the past. I find it interesting that Sifu Lin Yao also uses the terminology "high level Qigong" sometimes to refer to this. I've never asked him if he's read any material of Sifu Wong Kiew Kit's (which I will now ).
I look forward to more examples you find from Chinese Literature.
Last edited by beggarsu; 4 January 2006, 09:53 AM.
"The nine energies are necessary for immortality, but they are not something for any person to be allowed to come in contact with or hear about. The populus common, in their unending worry, their concern is only with riches and honors. They may well be called walking corpses." - Ge Hong
I would just like to add that for westerners it is just a question of semantics but from people from Asia there are subtle differences. My wife is from Vietnam. She came to America when she was 25, so she has the cultural understanding. This is how she differentiates things, please keep in mind she has no martial art training, so this is just the cultural usage:
good kung fu: people that can fight well
qigong: health exercises
neigong: high level buddhist monks, or other people with abilities like healing or astral projection have strong neigong.
Some very interesting posts here. Thank you Wuji for reviving this thread!
Despite all of the excellent explanations, I would still argue that this is a matter of semantics. Actually, I don't disagree with the sentiment that Qigong = health exercises and Neigong = high-level kung fu. It's an interesting, and perhaps useful distinction.
Certainly, there are DIFFERENCES between health exercisees and high-level kung fu. However, these differences may not be easy for the uninitiated to understand, especially if we consider that the differences may be completely invisible to the eye.
For example -- an exercise like Pushing Mountains can be used by a complete beginner as medical qigong to cure her endometriosis. The very same exercise can be used by a novice kung fu master to cultivate Cosmos Palm. At still higher levels, the same exercise can be used to heal a person from a distance.
For me, the lines of distinction quickly become blurred. What is kung fu, and what is not? Does the 25-year-old woman who cures herself of endometriosis have good kung fu? What about the the kung fu master who cures people with his Cosmos Palm -- is that good kung fu or good medicine? Or what about someone who practices Pushing Mountains for vitality, but develops internal force as a bonus?
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