Karma vs. Fate

[ryanberg]

Can someone please explain the difference between karma and fate/destiny?

In Sifu's book, Sukhavati, he said that nothing happens by chance, but this does not mean that everything is pre-determined. However, he didn't explain this statement any further.

It seems to me, that if the karma you generated from past actions leads you to a certain set of conditions...then those conditions are going to be the determining factor in the creation of new karma.

In an example: Each person has their own set of experiences. Who they are, and also how they think is determined by those past experiences. So how they react to circumstances at any moment is solely based on those past experiences, which created their current mental state that decides their new actions.

If you look at things this way, everything seems to be pre-determined. However, in the statement Sifu made about this...he said something about how mathematicians interested in probability and the randomness of the universe should look into it (something along those lines anyway, I can't remember exactly).

So, this makes me wonder if something about the randomness of everything isn't the key to why everything isn't pre-determined. But even still, the real question is...what control do we actually have over the directions of our lives? Or, does free will really exist?

Ryan

[Andrew]

Very interesting topic. I am not in a position to give you any definite answers but maybe it is worth considering the following:

- The idea that everything is pre-determined but you still have free choice is not unique to Buddhism. I remember once being told the same is true in, for example, Christianity (and related religions) i.e. God knows what we will do but we still make the decision ourselves.

- We certainly have freedom of choice (my opinion of course). And it is also true that the decisions we make are based upon our experiences i.e. the past and the present.

- Mathematicians -- would probably start to talk about quantifiable uncertainty. In fact I had an interesting discussion with some physicists this week (coincidence?) about exactly this concept. At start the point was argued (by a chemical engineer) that quantifiable uncertainty was a contradiction in terms. However, once we got onto the subject of quantum theory even he had to agree (without quantifiable uncertainty, this theory could not exist).

Maybe helpful and maybe not?

Andrew

[Mike B]

OK just a quick one as I have largely given up trying to pass on info on these topics...

But this one is quite amusing (in a way!)... if people wanna diss it thats fine... in fact thats their karma but if you believe in Buddhism not their niyati...

There was a renunicant grouping around at the time of the Buddha called the Ajivakas who were rivals to the Buddhists and the Jains. Their key doctrine was 'niyati' an impersonal fate or destiny that governed all - humans had no power to influence outcomes, their actions were not freely done but predetermined... Anyway they practised rigid asceticism such as fasting, disfiguring initiations and their highest aim was to die by self-starvation as a fitting end to their last rebirth. Interestingly the founder of the Jains (Vardhamana) who was intially good chums with Gosala the founder of the Ajivakas managed this splendid feat The Buddha criticised Ajivaka fatalism as a pernicious denial of human potential and responsibility.

Curiously the Ajivakas weren't ultimately one of history's great religious successes :-)

The other Indian philosophy pun is why unlike Buddhism Jainism never spread very far. As a clue you would find out the answer if a Buddhist and a Jain had a 100m race (and the philosophical bit is due to a different understanding/interpretation of kamma).

HTH

Mike

ps one a basic but egregious error the Buddha saw five (or was it four dont recall) forces at work in the universe - one of which was karma... there were others. Nevertheless its all to common to see people incorrectly saying/assuming that Buddhists believe the workings of the universe are the sole product of karma..

pps the logical error in your argument (from a Buddhist persepctive) is that regardless of the fruit or your prior karma (which will ripen at some stage) the karma you create NOW is for you to choose - eg you can choose to go and get blitzed down the pub or you can go practice some qigong... Only the ajivakas would see the universe as some ticking mechanical clock...

[Ray]

Dear friends,
"There was a renunicant grouping around at the time of the Buddha called the Ajivakas who were rivals to the Buddhists and the Jains...Curiously the Ajivakas weren't ultimately one of history's great religious successes :-) "
Hahahaha! Here is my view on karma and destiny. Suppose if one day you walk outside your house at a certain time and you will get run over because of your bad karma. The decision to walk outside your house is made by you and until you walk outside your house you still have "free will" or the ability to change your fate. Remember, karma can be changed, bad karma can be nullified by good karma, etc. However, once you walk outside your house your fate is sealed.
Thus, I feel that in order to fully use free will, awareness is an important factor. If your heart is open and you are calm and aware you can make decisions that will prevent things from happening to you that you regret later.

Take care,

Divineshadow

[ryanberg]

I guess ultimately we have to fall back on what we know through experience.

I know I have free will, because I experience it with every action I take.

I don't know that karma is a real force acting on my life, because I don't experience life on the kind of scale where you would be able to observe it (such as through the eyes of a Buddha).

More and more the simplicity and heart of Buddhism is becoming more important to me. Of experiencing truth, and not questioning it (only to find more questions). More and more Sifu's words ring true...

To be a Buddhist, you only need to do three things:

Avoid Evil
Do Good
Purify the Mind

To the love and search for Truth ~

Ryan

[chiron]

thats so impossible to answer....becuase itll always be a paradox.

i give up what i consider my freedom..or will..to gain greater layers of freedom, or will...and at some point im going to consider 'freedom' a trap. what am i free from...?

[Antonius]

I don't know that karma is a real force acting on my life, because I don't experience life on the kind of scale where you would be able to observe it (such as through the eyes of a Buddha).

Sure you know. You don't need the eyes of a Buddha to see karma in action.

Karma is cause and effect. We may not be able to see the big picture of karma the way a Buddha can, but we can certainly see small things. For example, we can see that by avoiding evil and doing good, our lives and the lives around us will be better. We can see this even if we don't know exactly what will be better.

We can see that by practicing chi kung, our health improves. We see this through direct experience, just as the Buddha taught.

And we can see that, by posting on this forum, our post count increases. Cause. Effect. Simple.

[chiron]

haha

[Michael Udel]

basic electrical theory

My interpretation of karma can be explained like basic electrical theory, ie. electricity always flows in a circuit. In a broader sense, all energy also flows in a circuit, from the transmitter to the receiver. For every transmission, there is a reception.

Sifu has said that life may be defined as a meaningful exchange of energy. If an exchange is simply a give and a take, or to reword it, a transmission and reception, all actions, whether physical movement, speech, or thought, are a transmission of energy. Eventually, there must be a reception of this energy to complete the circuit. The time it takes to complete the circuit can be as fast as the speed of light: thought; the speed of sound: speech; or a few meters per second: physical movement.

The time for the completion of the circuit may be quite long, such as hours, days, years, decades, or multiple lifetimes. The type of energy and how you intend it to emanate from within your heart outward will determine how long it will take to complete the circuit. I think it's best to complete the circuit in a shorter period as opposed to a longer one. Perhaps this generates less karma.

In his book The Path of Life, Ou Wen Wei writes of a long, contentious conversation between himself and a supernatural power that eventually identifies himself as Pan Gu. One of the topics they discussed during the four month ordeal when Ou was imprisoned during China's Cultural Revolution in 1974 was the subject of fate. Pan Gu said that during an individual lifetime, a person has 10% control, but aggregated over his many lifetimes, he only has about 5% control. No details are given as to control over what sorts of things, such as control over important decisions or the color of socks to wear on a given day. My interpretation of the book gives me the impression that there are a few important decisions where a person may potentially alter the course of their life, but that usually they will behave in the predictable way according to the situation.

It's very difficult for anyone to spontaneously do something contrary to their own nature. It seems that one of the few good ways to improve oneself is by giving sincere effort daily toward some kind of advancement, and that after years of work, you may gradually make enough progress to alter the course of your life.

Michael

[chiron]

thats a very good post...me thanks you much...^^^

10% is alot by the way... i disagree about makeing the circit omplete quicker than slower...if you sent vibratons from your heart out to a person and intended that they stretch for eternity...it would take [a long time??!] to get back to you!

lol. i am getting a bit confused.

[Michael Udel]

oh, yes, the original question

Selva : Thanks for the response. Although it's not my intention to do so, Sifu Stier said during the Zen/Tao thread that he believes past masters wanted their students to be confused.

I forgot to respond to Ryan's original question about karma vs. fate. I already gave my interpretation of karma, and I believe fate is a separate, but intermingled force in our lives. While karma is the "cause and effect" that Anthony described, fate is the individually tailored plan for each person throughout all their incarnations on this planet. The creator has destined for each person to go through many different experiences in order to learn certain important lessons, and fate is the sequence of events that create the situations wherein you will have these experiences.

I believe karma and fate affect each other. For example, through good karma you might learn an important lesson before fate had intended. In this case, the creator needs to adjust his plan to make allowances for your early advancement. If nothing else, the creator is a great planner and has many contingency plans for whatever may happen. He's a true "multi-tasker", arranging and adjusting the fates of every soul on this planet as well as those of people on other planets as well.

Buddhas and Saints can intervene to help humans for various reasons. For example, it may be intended by fate that a ferry will capsize and hundreds of people will drown. A Buddha may intervene and prevent the ferry from going down, so fate has to have a wide array of contingency plans for all the events that would have emanated from the deaths of so many people.

Michael

[ryanberg]

Thanks, Michael. I really liked that explanation of karma. Especially as far as explaining how much control we have, which was the main idea behind my question.

I've thought deeper into my question. And I think what I was really trying to uncover was the difference between the forces acting upon us from our past, compared to the force we have inside us in the present to re-direct the flow of our path.

At first, it seemed that the force from my past would entirely determine the new energy I released in the present to continue the flow. But I see now that this is only the case if you relinquish the ultimate control you have as the creator of your life.

Even though there may be many conditions created from past actions now, they are impermanent. And eventually your past karma will have gone full circle, and your present actions will become your future karma.

So even if you do only have a small fraction of totally free control, you can still use that fraction to ultimately control the direction of your life. Its just being aware of that freedom inside you that I think is key, and not becoming so immersed in your present conditions that you don't let yourself see beyond them. Because ultimately, I think anything is possible.

Ryan

[Michael Udel]

Is anything possible??

Dear Ryan:

Thanks for responding to my post. I think your follow-up is very insightful, and rightfully optimistic.

My understanding of karma is meager at best. I'm glad that my interpretation was somehow meaningful for you. I do have a very high confidence level in my understanding of fate. The creator is with each of us every moment of our lives, carrying out his plan for our ultimate benefit, and guiding us toward a benevolent purpose so we may eventually rejoin him in the not-too-distant future.

I would like to offer a counterpoint to your comment that "anything is possible." I think that you probably intended this as a very hopeful and optimistic message, but I must respectfully disagree.

If it is permissible to copy and paste from a section of Sifu's Question and Answer, then I will do so for the convenience of the forum members. The following is from October 2003 Part 1 Questions 1 -2.

I think the following passage is a good example of the tremendous wealth of knowledge freely available to anyone online in Sifu's Q & A.

Question 1
I am 19 years old and have been extremely interested in the Chinese, Indian and any other energy arts for a long time. My interests centre around a philosophy that I have researched for many years. I have spoken to many qigong masters, Ling Kong Jing masters, Taijiquan masters and even masters of psychic and astral abilities, and they have verified the following:

“Absolutely anything is possible, given that you have trained your energy (i.e. prana, mana etc) and your intention (yi) to perform that action. The only limiting factor is that the human life span cuts us short from the more amazing abilities. We do not have the time to generate sufficient energy or practice or intention for long enough.”

I have already seen many things that people would class as impossible or as magic. I have felt qi. I have had a qigong practitioner push and pull me over. I have experienced the incredible power of jing, even from someone who does not train as much as he should.

I would like you to give your opinion on the "anything is possible, pity we don't live that long" that so many times I have had verified by other masters.
Aidan, England


Answer 1
I would like to tell you a story.

Once upon a time an aspirant respectfully asked a Zen master to accept him as a student. “Master,” he pleaded, “Please teach me the way. I know you do not want to waste time on fresh beginners, so I have done some prior cultivation.”

“What have you cultivated?” the master asked.

“May I show you?” the aspirant said. He made a mudra with his fingers, said a mantra, and stomped his right foot trice on the ground. The local god of the earth emerged from the ground, bowed to him and said, “Sir, what can I do for you?”

“Nothing in particular,” the aspirant replied, “I just wish to say Good Day.” The local god of the earth bowed again, and disappeared into the ground.

Next, the aspirant made another mudra, chanted another mantra, and pointed his open palm towards some bushes in front. A ray shot out from his palm towards the bushes, setting them on fire.

Then the aspirant looked towards the sky, chanted yet another mantra, and held his index and middle finger together and pointed them towards the sky. Some clouds materialized. With his fingers he led the clouds over the fire. Then he opened his five fingers towards the clouds. Rain fell and quenched the fire.

The aspirant then turned respectfully to the master, and said, “Master, I know these are only little tricks, nothing compared to what you teach.”

“What would you like to learn?” the master asked.

“I’d like to perform the impossible.”

“The impossible is impossible,” the master answered as a-matter-of-factly.

“But, with your miraculous powers, you could perform the impossible.”

“Even the Buddha could not perform the impossible!”

The aspirant was stunned. After he had recovered himself, he solemnly said, “I thought nothing was impossible to the Buddha!”

“No,” the master kindly explained. “There were many things the Buddha could not do. For example, the Buddha could not prevent critics ridiculing his teaching. He could not revive the dead, and He could not reverse karmic effects. If someone has done something bad, the Buddha could not make him have good result.”

The aspirant thought for a moment. “Then, what did the Buddha teach?”

“Avoid all evil, do good, and cultivate the mind.”

“I have done that and I have been cultivating my mind,” the aspirant answered.

“You’ve been cultivating your mind to perform little tricks. Now cultivate your mind to go beyond life and death, to go beyond karma, to attain eternal bliss.”

At this moment the aspirant attained a cosmic awakening. He prostrated three times to thank the master.


At Shaolin Wahnam while we are idealistic in our aspirations – we aim for the best – we are also pragmatic in our endeavor. We realize and accept our limitations. As you know you cannot live forever, even if we presume your theory were true, you would in reality be unable to accomplish the impossible. Then, why do you waste precious time arguing and fussing over what you know would not happen? Instead, you should spend your time doing well what you can, and should, do.

[ryanberg]

I think life is proof that anything is possible. Imagine the endless number of worlds that are in existence, exploring an infinite number of possibilities.

And ultimately, we are the creators of these worlds. Whether or not each of us should explore every possibility is another question. But I think we could if we wanted to. Perhaps that's what we set out to do in the first place.

As far as the things listed that the Buddha couldn't do...maybe the only things that are impossible are things that interfere with the worlds of others. Since each of us is exploring our own possibilities.

Ryan

[Ray]

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