somewhere to discuss things in a friendly way

[Jeffrey Segal]

Greetings Everybody,

This is not an easy thread for me to write. If you go here http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthr...?t=2217&page=1 you’ll see that Sifu Stier has requested that any differences between his posts and Sifu Wong’s teaching be pointed out. This is a little delicate for me. On the one hand, I have no wish to enter into a confrontation with anybody, especially a Grandmaster who is being so generous with his wisdom and obviously has a great deal of experience in the things of which he speaks. On the other hand, there do seem to be a few points on which we differ so I would like to offer this thread as a place where we can discuss these points in a friendly way, without animosity or sarcasm. Maybe we’ll find out that we don’t actually disagree all that much and maybe we’ll just agree to disagree.

Here is a good place to start:

The overwhelming majority of Form Postures and Techniques
in all Tai-Chi Chuan Sets are forward moving, not backward moving. All Form Sets of any Style are intended to teach us not only What To Do, but How To Do It. Thus, the Sets clearly demonstrate that 'Defensive Yin' and
'Offensive Yang' are to be most often performed simultaneously while moving
forward, not backward.

I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit over the weekend and it seems to me that there are numerous patterns in Taijiquan sets that are backward moving. Even if we restrict ourselves to the 24 pattern simplified set we can find some obvious and subtle examples.

In the patterns "Repulse Monkey", "White Crane Flaps Wings" and "Needle at the Bottom of the Sea", we move back, either from Bow-Arrow stance to False Leg stance or simply stepping back in Four-Six stance. In patterns such as "Green Dragon Shoots Pearl", "Grasping Sparrow’s Tail" and many others there is also some very important (though perhaps subtle) backwards movement. It is my humble opinion that Grasping Sparrow’s tail provides us with many clues to understanding Yin/Yang harmony and I agree that Taijiquan Forms offer us important lessons in “What to Do” and “How to do it”. I just don’t think that they are telling us to always move forwards.

What do the other members of our forum think? Can any of you think of other Taijiquan patterns that involve backwards movement? I welcome your comments as of course I invite Sifu Stier to further enlighten us from his perspective as a Grandmaster of Shen Men Tao.

I hope that this thread will develop in a way that is fruitful to all.

Smile from the Heart

[Antonius]

One of my favorites: Playing the Lute.

Also, I forget what you call it in Taijiquan, but there's that pattern similar to the Shaolinquan pattern "Reverse Hanging of the Golden Lotus". That one also involves a subtle backward swallowing.

[beausimon]

Hi,
I found this listing of the 88 standard Yang postures, which I hope would be useful for the discussion.


Section 1

1. Pre-Opening Stance
2. Opening Form
3. Grasp Peacock's Tail
4. Single Whip
5. Raise Hands
6. White Crane Spreading Wings
7. Brush Knee and Twist Step -- Left
8. Hands Strumming the Lute
9. Brush Knee and Twist Step -- Left and Right
10. Hands Strumming the Lute
11. Step Up, Parry, and Punch
12. Apparent Close-Up
13. Cross Hands
14. Return to Mountain with Tiger

Section 2

15. Obliquely Grasp Peacock's Tail
16. Fist Under Elbow
17. Slip Back Forearm -- Left and Right
18. Oblique Flying
19. Raise Hands
20. White Crane Spreading Wings
21. Brush Knee and Twist Step
22. Needle at Sea Bottom
23. Flash Out Arms
24. Turn, Sidle, and Punch
25. Step Up, Parry, and Punch
26. Step Up and Grasp Peacock's Tail
27. Single Whip
28. Wave Hands Like Clouds
29. Single Whip
30. High Pat on Horse
31. Right Kick
32. Left Kick
33. Turn and Left Kick
34. Brush Knee and Twist Step
35. Step Up and Punch Down
36. White Snake Showing Tongue
37. Step Up, Parry, and Punch
38. Kick with Right Heel
39. Sidle Left to Tame Tiger
40. Sidle Right to Tame Tiger
41. About Turn and Kick with Right Heel
42. Strike Opponent's Ears with Both Fists
43. Kick with Left Heel
44. Turn and Kick with Right Heel
45. Step Up, Parry, and Punch
46. Apparent Close-Up
47. Cross Hands
48. Return to Mountain with Tiger

Section 3

49. Obliquely Grasp Peacock's Tail
50. Side-Step Single Whip
51. Parting Wild Horse's Mane -- Left and Right
52. Step Up and Grasp Peacock's Tail
53. Single Whip
54. Working at Shuttles (at 4 Angles)
55. Step Up and Grasp Peacock's Tail
56. Single Whip
57. Wave Hands Like Moving Clouds
58. Single Whip
59. Sweep Down
60. Golden Cock on One Leg -- Left and Right
61. Slip Back Arm -- Left and Right
62. Oblique Flying
63. Raise Hands
64. White Crane Spreading Wings
65. Brush Knee and Twist Step -- Left
66. Needle at Sea Bottom
67. Flash Out Arms
68. Turn, Sidle, and Punch
69. Step Up, Parry, and Punch
70. Step Up and Grasp Peacock's Tail
71. Single Whip
72. Wave Hands Like Moving Clouds
73. Single Whip
74. High Pat on Horse
75. Cross Palms (Back to Back) -- Left
76. Turn, Cross Hands, and Kick
77. Brush Knee and Punch
78. Step Up and Grasp Peacock's Tail
79. Single Whip
80. Sweep Down
81. Step Up to Form Seven Stars
82. Retreat to Mount Tiger
83. Turn and Swing up Lotus-Leg
84. Archer Shooting Tiger
85. Step Up, Parry, and Punch
86. Apparent Close-Up
87. Cross Hands
88. Closing Form

[Sifu Stier]

Greetings Gentlemen:

No need to feel uneasy. This is not a delicate matter by any means.....and I assure you that I am not at all delicate either. Insofar as this discussion is concerned, however, I am at a distinct disadvantage as I have never seen your Wahnam Tai-Chi Chuan performed, to the best of my knowledge. I have
also noted your references to various Forms by names that I am unfamiliar with. Perhaps some or all of those postures are Forms I know by different names, or perhaps they are signature Forms unique to your style that I am totally unfamiliar with. Without seeing the Set, it is difficult to tell. Therefore, my points of reference will have to be what I am familiar with. My
longest training experience in Tai-Chi Chuan has been the practice of the older Large Frame Yang Long Imperial 108 Forms Set, which is a direct modification of the Old Frame (Lao-Jia) Chen Chuan, also a Large Frame/Large Circle/Slow Set method. As such, I took the first opportunity available to learn this Set in order to better understand the real roots of Yang's Style. Later, I was taught Wu Yi-hsiang's Style which blends both Chen and Yang Styles into a Small Frame/Small Circle/Fast Set, and then Sun Lu-tang's Style which is a modification/simplification of Wu's method with Pa-Kua and Hsing-Yi components added. Lastly, I learned Yang Pan-hou's Combined Styles Set which unites postures taken from Yang's Long Imperial Set, Chen's Old Frame Set, and Wu Yi-hsiang's Set. This last one is in my experience the most challenging to perform as it incorporates the unique signature performance appearance of all three methods, thus necessitating considerable practice experience with all of the combined styles.

In the Yang Sets, backward moving postures include 'Step Back to Repulse Monkey', 'Retreat to Ride Tiger', 'Hit Tiger at Left', and 'Roll Back of Grasp Bird's Tail'. There are a number of Forms in all of these Sets, some of which you mentioned, which end in a back weighted stance to be sure, but not by way of taking a backward step! Using Yang's Set again for illustration, 'White Crane Spreads Its Wings'
immediately follows 'Raise Hands and Step Up' as a change in direction attention concluding a Forward Step. Similarly, 'Play Hands Like Pi-Pa' is entered into by way of a half-step Forward following 'Brush Knee and Twist Step'. 'Needle At Sea Bottom' employs the exact same half-step forward footwork transition as 'Play Hands Like Pi-Pa'. Don't confuse backward weighted postures with backward stepping postures. Perhaps the addition of Tai-Chi practices to the Shaolin material has brought about modification of sequential transitions from the way they are performed in the Family Styles of Tai-Chi Chuan. That's OK, but if so does not reflect the majority mainstream in the Tai-Chi Chuan community at large. If this was a day long
seminar, or better yet a weekend workshop, for which I was financially compensated for my time and effort, I would gladly do a 'break-down' of the sets I listed earlier to more fully illustrate my points and multiple, believeable applications of every posture to validate same .....but this ain't that! I will, however, smile from my heart. Thanks for the reminder!

[MoMoJuice]

Lastly, I learned Yang Pan-hou's Combined Styles Set which unites postures taken from Yang's Long Imperial Set, Chen's Old Frame Set, and Wu Yi-hsiang's Set. This last one is in my experience the most challenging to perform as it incorporates the unique signature performance appearance of all three methods, thus necessitating considerable practice experience with all of the combined styles.

Dear Sifu Stier,

I find this very interesting, I have a few questions if you don't mind me asking. Can we assume that Yang Pan-hou's set contained Wu Yi-hsiang's style because he could have studied under him for some time? Also, is this combined set that you have learned the same as the Guang Ping Style that was passed down from Yang Pan-hou, to Wang Jiao-Yu, to Kou Lien-Ying?

Thank you again for the great posts.

MoMo.

[beausimon]

My longest training experience in Tai-Chi Chuan has been the practice of the older Large Frame Yang Long Imperial 108 Forms Set ..... Later, I was taught Wu Yi-hsiang's Style ......... then Sun Lu-tang's Style ..... Lastly, I learned Yang Pan-hou's Combined Styles Set

Hello Sifustier,
There are so many different styles !! Thanks for the posting.

I have a question that has been tugging at me for a while but didn't get around to asking anyone yet. I am asking purely out of curiosity (I can't help it) and no malice is intended.

Having learnt so many different styles, have you ever encountered a situation where you are practicing one style and went into another - sort of got mixed up?

Thanks.

[Sifu Stier]

Good Morning to All! Hello MoMo and beausimon:

The Yang Pan-hou Combined Style Set is not at all related to the Kuang-Ping Set, neither in the sequence of the Forms nor in the stylistic appearance of the movement. Some novice readers of these posts may not realize that each of the major Family Styles of Tai-Chi Chuan, i.e. Chen, Yang, Wu/Hao, Wu/Ng, and Sun has a distinctive 'signature' performance appearance, much like different 'styles' or 'genre' of music have a 'signature sound'. Vizualize the same piece of music performed by a Jazz group, a Classical quartet, a Country Band, and a Blues Band! It's the same melody line essentially, but will 'sound' quite a bit different in the interpretation thereof. That's how the major Tai-Chi styles are. I did not realize, for example, that Yang Long Imperial 108 follows the sequence of the Chen Lao-Jia/Old Frame Set from which it came until I was actually learning the Chen Set because even those Forms of the exact same name were performed so differently in style of performance! In any event, the Kuang Ping Style is essentially the same in sequence as the Long Imperial Form, but different in stylistic performance. This is basically also the relationship of Wu Chien-chuan's Set to Long Imperial Set.

Regarding the question about confusion in practicing the different styles, that
really hasn't ever been a problem any more than it would be for a practitioner
of any martial art in which several sets are taught which may contain similar movements. What would happen to me, however, especially with the longer Chen and Yang Sets is that I'd be cruising along in my practice after awhile, effortlessly flowing through the Set when it would occur to me how good that felt in every way and how very 'cool' and 'hip' I was for being able to do so! Suddenly, as if instant punishment for indulging my ego, I would draw a complete blank about the Set. I wouldn't know what Form comes next or even which Form I just performed! I'd stand there trying without success to get back in the 'groove', but no-o-o-o! So I'd think..."Oh, crap, I have to start all over again...Damn!" Is this what you were thinking of? My Master kept telling me to..."Think less and feel more! Allow it to unfold, don't try to force it to happen"! These challenges happen to everyone so far as I can tell. It's only temporary. It will eventually pass! Good Luck!!!

[Zen R Ridge]

I can relate

Hi all great thread by the way.

Sifustier i just want to say i can completely relate i used to do yang long style or big as i used to say: and the names differ quite a bit and initially when i was learning from Sifu Wong's book i became a bit confused and didnt recognise many of the patterns.

That has changed now

Single whip, does that not have a subtle backward motion, be it small?

[Sifu Stier]

Re: Single Whip (Tan-Pien)

Hello Zen!

In all of the Sets I have learned, the Single Whip is a 'turn-around' Form in which one's attention, focus and direction of movement changes, usually between 120-270 degrees depending on the individual Set, but in each instance concluding with a Forward Step in the new direction. There is a backward movement of the rear hand at the end of this posture in all of the Styles, but not in the footwork!

[Chiahua]

With regard to backward movements in the form, my sifu of late has emphasized that even while one is performing a backward movement, one keeps the mindset of moving forward. The main example he uses is "roll back" in grasping the sparrow's tail. I can only speak for what I am being taught, since this pattern is so profound in how one can interpret/apply it. But as one rolls back, you keep the mindset of moving forward so that one is not overwhelmed by someone pushing you. The back leg, being weighted, is still sending some strength forward even if someone is pushing on you. So the idea would be to swallow and redirect, preferably into the ground. The strength could be likened to "mao dun li" (contradictory force) that Ovidius has been discussing in the Yi Quan thread, in that there is both the sensation of moving forward and moving backward at the same time.
I wonder about repulse monkey. After seeing Sifu Wong's article on how to defend against knee jabs I don't think it is necessarily a backward stepping move. But in the form, there's no question. My mantra of late has been "no hard and fast rule"!

[Sifu Stier]

Hello sunyata!

Well said! Thank you for the excellent follow-up post! You are most fortunate to be training with a good Sifu. His insight is right on target and completely in harmony with what I was taught as well. If his instruction is generally of this quality, perhaps you should consider becoming a permanent student of this 'sifu of late'!!!

[Zen R Ridge]

Thank you

Thank you Sifu Stier

I should have added the rotation and forward momentum to cnclude this form. And as sunyata said i have noticed that nearly all the forms that i learnt from Yang style conclude with a forward momentum, usually to push off the opponent.

Regards

Zen

[Chiahua]

Sifu Stier, thank you for the kind words.

[Sifu Stier]

Greetings zen and sunyata!

You are both very welcome! May the quality of your practice stay abreast of the quality of your thinking. I send you both my warmest regards!

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hello Everyone,

I’m glad to see that this thread has attracted so much interest. Many thanks to Sifu Stier for his exposition on Taijiquan theory and history. With all the time you spend on our forum, it’s lucky for us that you are not demanding financial remuneration.

Perhaps my opinions are the result of having spent so much time training footwork in which we strive to be able to move in all directions while preserving Yin/Yang harmony. In writing this I’m thinking of Standing Still, Moving Forwards, Moving to the Left, Moving to the Right and Moving Backwards, or the 5 elemental processes as they are often referred to in Taijiquan. It is my sincere belief that learning to be able to step backwards is both useful and essential if we wish to apply Taijiquan techniques and principles in combat. Could it not be that only moving forwards without learning to move backwards would be excessive yang at the cost of yin?

Too many Tai-chi players spend too much time shifted back onto their rear leg in an effort to 'yield', but then have no place to move to when pressed or pushed aggressively by their partner

This to me is indicative of poor footwork and not proof that the tactic of yielding by sinking of stepping back is inherently faulty. This poor footwork is indeed an endemic problem in Taijiquan practitioners. Perhaps it is the result of people not learning to step back correctly. When done skillfully, stepping backs allows the practitioner freedom to move in any direction guided by the 3 external harmonies of body, hands and legs as well as the 3 internal harmonies of essence, energy and spirit.

Best wishes,