That was Zen, this is Tao!

[Antonius]

Simple in language, profound in meaning

Thanks Jeff.

So did Zhuang Zi write a fairy tale in the first passage above?

Of course not. Taoist writings are arcane and symbolic. When Zhuang Zi wrote about the Kun fish that became the Peng bird, the famous Taoist master was, of course, not just talking about a fish becoming a bird. I'll leave it to the Taoist experts to explain the symbolism and the meaning behind the story.

Zen writings are simple. There is no play on words. There is no symbolism. When the Zen master Yue An mentioned a carriage in the story, he meant a carriage. When he mentioned wheels, he meant wheels.

Although the language is simple, the meaning is profound. Because of this profundity, many people may not understand the meaning. Or they may find the story illogical. This is because they approach Zen intellectually, rather than experientially.

Both Student A and Student B might answer that the carriage has wheels without spokes, yet the master might be pleased with Student A’s answer but reprimanded Student B.

Or Student C might say that there is no carriage, and Student D might say there are no wheels. The master might be pleased with Student C but reprimanded Student D.

Or Student E might answer the same way as Student C, and student F the same way as student D. Yet the master might be pleased with Student F but not with Student E.

If Zen writings are not symbolic, then why would the master be pleased with some answers but not with others? What the Zen master wants from his students is not just the answer itself. The master is looking at how the student answers. He uses language as a tool to test his students, or to confirm whether his students have had a spiritual awakening (satori).

This use of language is not found in Taoism, but it was used by Zen masters long before Bodhidharma’s arrival in China.

When Bodhidharma told Emperor Liang Wu Di that there is no holiness, but only emptiness, he used language in the same way. Or when Hui Ke told Bodhidharma that he could not bring out his heart (mind) because he had no heart, he also used language in this way. But from ancient times until now, this use of language to test or confirm satori has never been used in Taoism.

This use of language is another example of the important differences between Zen and Taoism. These many differences are what make Zen and Taoism distinct spiritual traditions. As I said earlier, both traditions lead to the same goal -- they just get there along distinctly different paths.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by SifuStier

I wonder why my Wahnam friends remain so insistent on keeping their focus on the differences which separate and segregate people on this subject matter, rather than embracing a focus on the similarities which bind and unite all concerned.

Take a fish and a bird. Search for similarities and you will find them in abundance. It is their non-similarities which makes each what it is and unique from the other.

Maybe someone (SifuStier?) would like to open a new thread to discuss similarities between Taoism, Zen Buddhism and other world religions. I am sure it will be extremely illuminating to see how similar most (if not all) world religions are.

Originally Posted by Ovidius

I am really sorry but I was just wondering about the unity of Zen forms and making some dialogue..............

No need to apologise. This thread now has defined emphasis. To address your post(s) in this thread would detract from the emphasis -- now it has finally been defined. If you would like to re-post your questions and thoughts in another thread then I'm sure many would be pleased to read them and comment.

Originally Posted by selva

I read somewhere yesterday that humans are unnatrual in their capacity to willfully change their own nature and map of reality.[?!] I've also been told that aborigionies think we are a race of mutants has anyone come across bits of taoism and zen, that mention the capabilitites of humans specifically? Things i've read from the tao, are all, the tao is not this, not this either etc... and osho zen seems to be about having a laugh. If anyone has read stuff about us, or our design or position in taoism or zen please share!

This is very interesting and, as I mentioned above for Ovidius, I'm sure many would be interested in your points. Once again, though, this is not relevant to the discussion at hand so please re-post it in another thread.

A note to all here, this discussion is back on track. PLEASE keep it that way. If you have related but not directly relevant comments or questions then please feel to post them in a new thread.

Thanks
Andrew

[Sifu Stier]

Hello? I did open a new thread to discuss the similarities between these systems. IT WAS THIS THREAD! But it has since been highjacked into the undying argument! What a pity for everyone!

[Joan]

Greetings to everyone,

I have only had a chance to read through all of this thread in the past few days. Very interesting!

I particularly liked working out the Zen and Taoist passages. Thank you Anthony for returning with the explanation and for some excellent clear posts.

I hope that the exams went well for you although I am sure that they did!

Now that the topic is back on track, I look forward with eager anticipation to reading everybody's posts.

Smile from the Heart,
Joan.

[Antonius]

Sifu Stier, no one has hijacked your thread. We are firmly on the topic that you created. Please have another look at your opening post here:

I thought that it might be of interest to those who regularly post here to do a bit of comparative analysis between these two spiritual philosophies.

We are doing exactly that -- a comparative analysis of Zen and Taoism. Furthermore, your comment here...

You make an excellent point, and in doing so have anticipated where I intended to take this thread.

...in response to Mike's comment here...

This isn't a coincidence as such as in many ways Zen is the 'daughter' of the earlier Taoist and Buddhist schools - hence the familial resemblances (on a number of levels)...

...clearly shows that you intended, from the beginning, to discuss how "Buddhism is Buddhism, and Taoism is Taoism, but Zen is a magnificent blend of both!" And that's exactly what you have done. My Shaolin Wahnam siblings and I are responding to the topic at hand -- a topic many of us happen to find fascinating even though our views differ from your own. So thank you for opening such an interesting topic.

[Antonius]

More Fun

Thanks Joan. I'm glad you had fun. Differentiating Zen writings from Taoist writings is an interesting exercise. Ready for some more fun?

Let's continue with two different qigong exercises from modern sources. One exercise is influenced by Zen, and the other is influence by Taoism. Can you tell which is which?

Exercise 1

Stand upright and relaxed with your feet fairly close together. Place one hand on your middle energy field, about two inches below your navel. Place your other hand over it. Open your mouth slightly. Then empty your heart -- that is, dispel irrelevant thoughts.

It is important to have an “empty heart” throughout this exercise.

Exercise 2

Reaffirm the star above you and the earth directly below you. Fix the image of the North Star and the Big Dipper six to nine feet above your crown. See the cup of the Big Dipper filling with violet light, which gathers Chi from the North Star and the universe. Reach up with your left hand, and hold on to the handle of the Big Dipper. Pour the violet light down to your personal star 4 to 6 inches above your head, in order to predigest the energy of the violet light. Then let it flow down to your crown, into the Upper Tan Tien to be processed and flow down to the heart center (Middle Tan Tien) or to the back of the head down to C-7 (Cervical 7) and T-2 (Thoracic 2) and down to the palm.

(Have fun. I'll provide the answer soon.)

[Chiahua]

Originally Posted by Antonius

If Zen writings are not symbolic, then why would the master be pleased with some answers but not with others? What the Zen master wants from his students is not just the answer itself. The master is looking at how the student answers. He uses language as a tool to test his students, or to confirm whether his students have had a spiritual awakening (satori).

That is an excellent point, thank you for that!

This use of language is not found in Taoism, but it was used by Zen masters long before Bodhidharma’s arrival in China.

That's an interesting observation. Do you have any citations of such uses of language? I'm curious because I read that Zen and its use of language was a reaction against what was the prevailing trend of Buddhist literature which was, while I wouldn't say "Taoist-like", verrrrry arcane and symbolic (the Hua-Yen/Flower Garland Sutra comes to mind). Or if not very arcane, then in the form of parables as in the Lotus Sutra. Such direct use of language would definitely be in the minority prior to the founding of Ch'an I would think.
It's important to note that like the bible, there might probably multiple authors of the Zhuangzi where people later on in the game have added commentary that may have been mistaken for being part of the original work. The translation I have of the Zhuangzi that I cite here offers a good exposition.

Happy reading/practicing!
Chia-Hua

[Ovidius]

Anthony, I bet that the first one is influenced by Zen and the second by Taoism.

Below is a text I copy-pasted from a e-book, and the text is called 10 Bulls. It is written by a Chinese master Kakuan (1100-1200). What do you think, is it Zen or Taoist? I'm going to spend Christmas at home, so I'll reveal the answer on next week maybe. Enjoy!

Is the pasture of this world, I endlessly push
aside the tall grasses in search of the
bull.

Following unnamed rivers, lost upon the inter-
penetrating paths of distant mountains,

My strength failing and my vitality exhausted,
I cannot find the bull.

I only hear the locusts chirring through the
forest at night.

Along the riverbank under the trees, I discover
footprints!

Even under the fragrant grass I see his prints.

Deep in remote mountains thy are found.

These traces no more can be hidden than one's
nose, looking heavenward.

I hear the song of the nightingale.

The sun is warm, the wind is mild, willows
are green along the shore,

Here no bull can hide!

What artist can draw that massive head,
those majestic horns?

I seize him with a terrific struggle.
His great will and power are inexhaustible.
He charges to the high plateau far above the cloud-mists,
Or in an impenetrable ravine he stands.

The whip and rope are necessary,
Else he might stray off down some dusty road.
Being well trained, he becomes naturally gentle.
Then, unfettered, he obeys his waster.

Mounting the bull, slowly I return homeward.
The voice of my flute intones through the evening.
Measuring with hand-beats the pulsating
harmony, I direct the endless rhythm.
Whoever hears this melody will join me.

Astride the bull, I reach home.
I am serene. The bull too can rest.
The dawn has come. In blissful repose,
Within my thatched dwelling I have abandoned
the whip and rope.

Whip, rope, person, and bull--all merge in No - Thing.
This heaven is so vast no message can stain it.
How may a snowflake exist in a raging fire?
Here are the footprints of the patriarchs.

Too many steps have been taken returning to the root and the source.
Better to have been blind and deaf from the beginning!
Dwelling in one's true abode, unconcerned with that without--
The river flows tranquilly on and the flowers are red.

Barefooted and naked of breast, I mingle with the people of the world.
My clothes are ragged and dust-laden, and I am ever blissful.
I use no magic to extend my life;
Now, before me, the dead trees become alive.

[Chiahua]

Originally Posted by SifuStier

Hello? I did open a new thread to discuss the similarities between these systems. IT WAS THIS THREAD! But it has since been highjacked into the undying argument! What a pity for everyone!

In terms of texts and readings, maybe it'd be better to focus the discussion around a few core pieces of literature. As Panu astutely pointed out, Zen and Taoism aren't necessarily unified when it comes to the texts, and possibly practices as well.
To draw an analogy from Kung-fu, these seem to me outward forms, and that ultimate goal --enlightenment, merging with the tao, brahman, being one with god-- transcends whatever school one subscribes to. I think that is a point many can agree with.

[Mark A]

Hey Guys,
I just wanted to say that I am glad that the post is coming back to it its origins.

I dont understand why it is a pity for everyone that the thread is coming back to it's origins. Like I posted earlier, it was becoming so scholarly I was unable to understand most of it. I am a complete novice in this. I only have some direct experience. I dont know all the history and development of Zen and Daoism.

I think some examples that are simple and can be directly understood would be fantastic.

Also the last post on the Meditation/Chi Kung exercises posted by Anthony are fanastic. Not only does it allow us to learn but it can give us direct experiences of these Philosphies.

I learn a lot more when I can actually experience something. I am basically a simple country boy at heart

All this book learning gives me headache (Uh HUh)

Thanks for your time
Mark Appleford