Yi Jin Jing

[Guest]

For anyone interested, there is an interesting discussion on the Russbo forum regarding the Yi Jin Jing

www.russbo.com/discus/mes.../1955.html

Very 'interesting'

Anthony is making some excellent points.

[Guest]

It was a complete waste of time.

There is a saying in Chinese: Bie dui niu tan qin.

The pronunciation is as follows: B-A (say each letter separately), Doo-A (say the letter), Knee-ooh Tahn Cheen. Roughly translated, it means "Don't play the lute to cows." The meaning is similar to the English cliche: Casting pearls before swine.

I just played a 6-hour lute concerto to a herd of cows while simultaneously casting a handful of pearls into the pig pen.

[Guest]

Bravo! Anthony.

Inch Time, Foot Gem.


Anton

[Guest]

LOL

They will just choke on the pearls 'cause their stomachs are full of swill.

[Guest]

???


this is not funny!
:-(

Karl

[Guest]

Re: ???


Karl,

I tend to agree with you. Dan and I are probably a bit jaded from spending so much time on that forum. Dan has been verbally sparring with these people for 2 years. I can see how Dan's comment would be distasteful in the context of this forum. However, I can also see that the same comment would not even raise an eyebrow on the other forum. I think we can forgive him this one time for forgetting to take off his dirty shoes at the door.

As for my comments, I should point out that not everyone on that forum is a so-called "cow." On the contrary, there are some good people there. This is precisely why I felt obligated to respond to certain comments. I wanted to share my knowledge with the good people. Whether or not I ultimately succeeded is up for debate. Either way, I've learned from the experience.



A<

[Guest]

Re: ???


Karl - you must have missed the

[Guest]

Yi Jin Jing


Hola Hermano,

Muchas Gracias. I needed the laugh.

Un saludo de Kind Dragon

[Guest]

words


oh - very nice Dan,
so i may do anything to you - just putting a smily behind - to make it a funny thing?
words do hurt! most times more then a punch...

take care of you
Karl

[Guest]

Re: words


Maybe it’s the English sense of humour you are not getting Karl, because I can assure you that you are taking it the wrong way and out of proportion. You have to realise I also know these people fairly well. I think you are being too sensitive.

[Guest]

Re: words


Sifu very kindly has written some replies to the comments made in the above mentioned thread.

I have reproduced them below but would suggest reading them in context on the Russbo Forum - the link is above.

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Regarding Yi Jin Jing, there is no doubt that it is a set of Chi Kung exercises, and not a sutra. Throughout the centuries Yi Jin Jing has always been practised as a set of Chi Kung exercises, and all classical as well as modern writings have referred to it as a set of Chi Kung exercises. Not a single authority, in person or in writing, has referred to it as a sutra.

Do you know if any of those who claim that Yi Jin Jing is a sutra, ever mentioned the content of this sutra, or a part of it? If you know of any lines from this sutra claimed by them, please let me know, and I can give you my views.

If some western students thought it was a sutra, it would be excusable, because one of the many meanings of "jing" is "sutra". But I am indeed very surprised that the Venerable Shi Yan Ming said it was a sutra. I think there might be some misunderstanding or some mistake. Perhaps the Venerable Shi Yan Ming was quoted out of context.

To say Yi Jin Jing is not a set of Chi Kung exercises but a sutra is like saying the Great Wall of China is not a great wall but a long city. In the Chinese language, the Great Wall is "chang cheng". Word by word "chang cheng" means "long city". But, of course, "chang cheng" refers not to a long city, but to the Great Wall, because besides meaning "city", "cheng" also refers to the walls that surround a city.

Another interesting example, which we in Shaolin Wahnam know very well, is the term "kai xin". Ask any Chinese what "kai xin" means, and he will tell you that it means "happy". But if you take the term "kai xin" word by word, it is "open heart". If a westerner argues that "kai xin" does not mean "happy" but refers to a surgical operation to cut open the heart, that is excusable, though laughable, but no Chinese who knows his language would say that.

Anthony has given a good explanation of the various meanings of "jing", such as "threads", "following a course", "menstruation", "regulations", "experience", "sutras" and "classics". There are two important meanings which Anthony did not mention, namely "ways" and "meridians" (referring both to the pathways of energy flow inside our body as well as to the longitudes that transverse our earth).

There are many well known examples of "jing" as "classics". They include the famous Yi Jing (often spelt as "I Ching" in English), Dao De Jing (better known by its English spelling as "Tao Te Ching"), Shi Jing and Nei Jing.

Yi Jing, which has exactly the same Chinese characters as the first and last characters of "Yi Jin Jing", is the "Book of Change". Tao Te Ching is the concise teaching of Lao Tzu, the Patriarch of Taoism. Shi Jing is the "Book of Poetry", studied by Confucian scholars as a fundamental text. Nei Jing is the Internal Classic of Medicine, regarded by many as the most authoritative source for Chinese medicine. All these "jing" were accepted as classics long before the first sutra appeared in China or even India. These are facts. People may argue over opinions, but they should not deny established facts.

Yi Jin Jing is often translated by many masters and writers into English as "Tendon Changing Classic". I translate it as "Classic of Sinew Metamorphosis" or simple "Sinew Metamorphosis".

You would be pleased to know some aspects of Sinew Metamorphosis which many people may not know. The "jin" in Yi Jin Jing does not just refer to sinews or tendons; it is a shortened form for "jin gu". Literally, "jin" means "sinew", and "gu" means "bones". But "jin gu" is more than just sinews and bones.

In Chinese medical philosophy, for example, "jin" is related to the muscular system, and is closely connected with the gall bladder. In Chinese, when you say "da dan" you mean "courageous", although "da dan" literally means "big gall bladder".

"Gu" in the context of Shaolin Kungfu refers to internal force. Many people have read about the "five animals" of Shaolin Kungfu, and that the "tiger" trains "gu". They think that by training the tiger forms, they can have strong bones. That is not what is meant. What is meant is that the tiger aspect of Shaolin Kungfu develops internal force.

Inside the "gu" is "sui", which is usually translated into English as "marrow". But in Chinese medical thought, "sui" is more than just marrow. It also refers to our nervous system. And when a Chinese says "gu qi", he refers not just to "bone energy" (its literal meaning word by word) but he means "integrity and righteousness".

So, Yi Jin Jing is not just a set of Chi Kung exercises to develop tendons and muscles, as some uninitiated persons believe, nor is it a sutra. It is the essence of Shaolin Chi Kung that develops tremendous internal force as well as fast reflexes, mental freshness, courage, integrity and righteousness. When we are ready, it enables us to have a glimpse of our Original Face. It is the Shaolin Chi Kung that trains us to become warrior-monks, the Shaolin ideal. Those who have not been exposed to such high level Chi Kung would never believe such an apparently simple movement like flicking the fingers three times can bring such fantastic and profound results.

We always walk our talk. Many students have written to tell me of their fantastic results. Lydia from Austria, for example, told me she had a deep Zen experience. Toby from England told me he found he had no body. Neil from Canada told me he had no mind.

Yi Jin Jing is also excellent for more mundane purposes. Recently I was invited to teach Chi Kung to top leaders of a big country. I taught them only two exercises --"Lifting the Sky" and "Flicking Fingers" from Yi Jin Jing. They were so impressed that the Minister of Defence asked me to stay in the country. I jokingly said they had to grant me permanent resident status. The Minister of Interior immediately said it was no problem.

It is understandable if other people do not believe our results. Not many people have the good karma to practise high level Shaolin arts, or even low level genuine Shaolin arts. As you know very well, much of what is practised as Shaolin arts today is just external forms. If others attack us and call us fakes, let us be tolerant and be gentle to them. We know we are sincere, and we know from direct personal experience what we are talking about. You need not argue with them. You have been very kind; you even offer to pay the air tickets for sceptics to learn from me. While your generosity is admirable, it is not necessary. Sceptics are not ready -- they still have not cultivated the appropriate karma. Even if we thrust our wonderful arts onto them, they will vehemently reject. That is their choice, and also their right.

Educated Chinese would say, "Don't play the lute to buffaloes!". I clearly remember that was what my Sifu, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, said to me when in my young days I tried to persuade him to teach the sceptical. Scholar-warriors and warrior-monks would appreciate beautiful music, but not buffaloes, including martial-buffaloes; they prefer to eat grass.

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Below is the reply from one of Shi Yan Mings disciples who uses the pen name Arhat

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Dan, all I have to say is, "Holy @#%$."

I am actually really glad you posted that. It really clarifies for me what the issue is and why we are not communicating with each other, which honestly I was having a hard time understanding.

There are no WORDS in the Yi Jin Jing. We are NOT taught that the Yi Jin Jing is a sutra as you or Sifu Wong are thinking that we are thinking of that word, in that it is a text, like the Prajnaparamita. However, it IS like the Prajnaparamita, because it can achieve the SAME results...and so, in that sense, it is like unto a sutra. Indeed, the Yi Jin Jing is far more than it's surface attributes. You are thinking we mean 'sutra' in the sense that you think we refer to the yi jin jing as a written work instead of a set of movements or words in addition to that we study seperate? That there are a series of words or sayings that we call the Yi Jin Jing, or words that are attributable to it? This is not the case. Shi Yan Ming refers to the Yi Jin Jing as the Muscle/Tendon Changing Sutra, not 'classic' because the actual form itself is treated as the sutra. As you yourselves astutely pointed out, the character/word carries with it the connotation of 'thread...' which is also one of the primary meanings of the sanskrit term but we recognize that it is used symbolically to express something other than the literal.

Damo was famous for an irreverance for dogma. The previous abbot of Shaolin, Ba Tuo, whose disciples first brought martial arts to Shaolin, was famous for Xiao Xing Buddhism. In this sect, they paid a lot of attention to things like dogma, and sutras. In fact, you could probably spend your entire life studying all the different sutras and never come very close to understanding yourself or the universe or Buddhism. But Damo saw this as unecessary. As you might recall, he taught mostly from the Lankavatara Sutra, he also taught from the understanding and development of Ch'an, whose origin is rooted in understanding through action. You will recall the Lord Buddha held aloft a single flower, which caused a single smile...which produced understanding. It is in this sense, in this context that the Yi Jin Jing is considered a sutra. Not a collection of words, but a collection of movements which produces a vehicle for understanding.

This is why I was asking what in your opinion the first Ch'an transmission was. I was curious to know if you had this 'action language' concept. I mean, you must, or else you would never say there was spiritual fullfillment in Shaolin gong fu. Ch'an, as you know, is famous for the MIND to MIND, HEART to HEART transmission, the sudden enlightenment, which requires no written or spoken language, and involves action meditation, walking meditation, reading meditation, eating ice cream meditation, or seated meditation- anything done in mindfulness can be meditation as you well know. Within this context, of 'Shaolin Ch'an chuan yi ti,' as expressed through Shi Su Xi and others, ALL gong fu forms can be thought of as 'sutras,' threads by which we are led, or follow, to deeper spiritual meaning. This is partially the reason why a form like Da Lohan is considered sacred, why you might even find some movements in gong fu forms that are mapped in from say buddhist ceremony or monastic life- perhaps it would not be a stretch to say an attempt to express interbeing, such as the original motive of creating statues of Buddha, not because Buddha needed statues or wanted statues of himself, but to show the rock itself would one day be Buddha.

There is no conceptual difference between Shaolin gong fu and Ch'an, they are one...in effect, your entire life may be a sutra.

I don't know if this clears things up, but I hope so.

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Below is Sifu's second reply

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I am glad to read Arhat's explanation. Actually Arhat's group and ourselves have similar concepts, but we use different words which cause confusion, especially the word "sutra".

Basically, both sides beleive that practising Yi Jin Jing can lead to spiritual awakening and eventually enlightenment. Because of this, the Venerable Shi Yan Ming translates the word "jing" as "sutra". By "sutra", he probably means a teaching of the Buddha, directly or indirectly, written or non-written, that can lead practitioners to enlightenment. But we use the word "sutra" as it is usually used by most people, including most Buddhists, i.e. a written record of the Buddha's teaching, or in some cases of some great masters' teaching, word by word.

They have a right to translate "Yi Jin Jing" the way they like, such as "Tendon Changing Sutra", but it will cause confusion and mis-understanding. Following their reason for their choice of the term "sutra", everything can be a "sutra". Stretching it further, but not without rationale, hitting someone's head is a "sutra", reciting a Christian prayer before meals is a "sutra". Most people would not want to cause such confusion and mis-understanding, hence most people translate Yi Jin Jing as Tendon Changing Classic.

But the Venerable Shi Yan Ming has a very good point. I am not sure whether he mentioned this point, but it is obvious to me. Using the term "classic" for "jing" may mis-lead people to think that Yi Jin Jing is a written text, like some classical texts such as Yi Jing (The Book of Change) and Nei Jing (The Internal Classic of Medicine), whereas using the term "sutra" would focus its aspect of spiritual training.

You may like to know how did sutras come about. The Buddha's teaching was passed down orally in the form of discourses. On some appropriate occasions, his teaching was transmitted from herart to heart. After his parinirvana, his disciples concerned that his oral teaching might be lost or mis-interpreted, gathered together to review and confirmed his teaching. Five hundred disciples attended the discussion which spread over many months, from which we now have the term "Five Hundred Arahans".

Anada, being the one who had heard all of the Buddha's discourses as he was the Buddha's personal attendant, recited the Buddha's teaching word by word, and each line was debated and verified by the huge gathering. Hence, sutras start with the words "Thus have I heard", which show that the content of each sutra was the verbatim record of the Buddha's teaching as reported by Anada. There are a few exceptions to this "Thus have I heard" beginning, such as the Heart Sutra and the Platform Sutra, which are the teachings of Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara and the Sixth Patriarch Hui Neng respectively.

The Buddha's teaching was not written down not due to any question of illiteracy -- in fact many Buddhists were great scholars -- but it was a tradition to transmit great teaching orally from master to students. It was only about 400 years later that the teaching was written down in slips of bamboo bound by silk threads. These bamboo slips were called "sutra", which actually is the Sanskrit word for silk. Earlier the Buddha's teaching was just called teaching, or "dharma" in Sanskrit, and was passed down from generation to generation orally before the sutras were written down.

When the great Bodhidharma arrived at the Shaolin Monastery to teach Zen, or "Chan" in Chinese, he found the monks weak. So he taught them two sets of chi kung exercises, namely "Eighteen Lohan Hands" and "Sinew Metamorphosis", to strengthen them physically and spiritually so that they could better practise meditation. I am unsure what Bodhidharma or the monks called those exercises then, but all available records name them in Chinese as "Shi Ba Lou Han Shou" and "Yi Jin Jing".

There has been no issue throughout the centuries whether the "jing" in Yi Jin Jing should be interpreted as "sutra", "classic" or any of the numerous meanings it has. But if you ask any initiated person, Chinese or non-Chinese, what Yi Jin Jing is, he will almost always tell you that it is a set of chi kung exercises.

These exercises were taught personally by masters to students, and were not described in details in books. The recording of how these exercises were performed, in writing or in pictures, came much later after Bodhidharma, and was very brief. It is unlikely that anyone learning the exercises from a book can get even a small portion of what we get in our typical Sinew Metamorphosis practice.

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Thanks to Sifu for his excellent and generous responce, i am sure you will all agree that the information contained is very interesting and helpful.

Kind Regards

Dan

Namo Guan Shi Yin Pu Sa

[Guest]

Re: words


I read the Russbo forum part about the Yi Jin Jing. I think that Anthony was really rude to the people there! Then he was rude to them here! I think that his points were not so good. I think the other people who posted as students of the other teacher were right. They were also rude but not until after Anthony told them that their ignorance was SOOO huge and so must be a mistake! I think they would know the answer better than people not trained with a monk. Besides what they said made sense. Wong Kiew Kit is just a person and he is just one person. You seemed to think that his post was the final word. ROFLOL!! Maybe you guys should practice some chi kung that has less extraordinary benefits! Something that just makes you humble and grants you wisdom rather than arrogant and judgemantal. Pearls before swines? How judgemental! I would be embarrassed of you as my student. You owe your SIfu an apology. You are making him look bad.

Namaste,
Suom

[Guest]

Re: words


*Note to readers: This comment was posted from the IP Address (a unique identifying address on the internet) 204.194.110.133, which is the same IP Address as "Bhodi" from the Russbo.com forum. (For those readers not familiar with the discussion, Bhodi is a student of Shi Yan Ming and was the main voice of opposition in the "Yi Jin Jing" discussion.)

Please take this important information into account as you read posts by "suomonona" as it sheds a new light on the issue. Furthermore, the name "suomonona," is "anonomous" spelled backwards. One can only assume this is "anonymous" spelled incorrectly.

[Guest]

Back on Topic again



hi folks,

I have no idea re times as I go in breaths, and more recently I am losing count of the breaths during the symetrical stances, instead focusing on the abdomen and 'switching' when either my legs are going/shaking - either due to the chi or physical exertion - and relaxing in standing meditation before starting with the stetches.

I timed myself a few months ago, but have no idea now & am happier with 'timeless' stances than clock-watching sessions.

I just saw Neil's pic on October 3, and am very impressed. I am certainly not that deep, and am still catching myself creeping upwards every now and again - I will have to unleash my ninja hedgehogs to sing to him during training sessions.

Anyone else still getting the burning sensation on the soles? I now have just one foot doing it which seems more distracting!