Taiji Vs Cantonese White Crane match 1954: Is this how Taiji Exponent fights?

[Quatro Bajina]

Below is the clip of the 1954 charity match between Taiji chuan master and Cantonese White Crane master in Macao. The purpose of the match is to show that Taiji can be used in sparring, I believe. The judge ruled the match was a draw in the end.

http://home.rochester.rr.com/rochchentaiji/wu.htm

It's a pretty big file, so it might take some time to D/L.

Question:

* Is this what Taiji supposed to look like in a fight/sparring?

The reason I ask is because I don't see any taiji techniques that were used in that match. I only saw two good strikes from the Taiji master:

1. The first blow to the nose which made the White crane master has to fight with a bloddy nose for the rest of the match. This is a solid strike, IMO

2. The first strike in round two to the temple. This is when the White Crane Master lunges. I believe this is a no defense direct counter startegy.

The rest of the fight looks like a bar fight to me....

I am wondering why I don't see any push hand or yielding technqiue like the ones Sifu Wong describe in his website. Are they that difficult to implement against a non taiji practicioner?

This match is very famous in which Taiji exponent proofs that Taiji can be used in fighting. After seeing the clip, I am somewhat dissappointed...

A Taiji teacher, I believe, in the other forum told me that I don't know what I am looking for. This is true since I have 0 experience in Taiji.

Would someone be kind enough to show me some of taiji moves and principles that are used in this match?

Thanks a bunch

[Antonius]

Is this what Taiji supposed to look like in a fight/sparring?

Newp.

The reason I ask is because I don't see any taiji techniques that were used in that match.

Me neither.

I only saw two good strikes from the Taiji master:

That's 2 more than I saw. In my book, even a sloppy strike can be called "good" if it does the job and does some damage. In this video, the strikes were both sloppy and ineffectual.

I believe this is a no defense direct counter startegy.

I believe this was blind luck.

The rest of the fight looks like a bar fight to me....

I've seen some good bar fights, and this wasn't one of them. This looked like a grammar school playground fight to me.

Are they that difficult to implement against a non taiji practicioner?

Yes, if you've only practiced forms and push hands your entire life. No, if you've practiced sparring.

This match is very famous in which Taiji exponent proofs that Taiji can be used in fighting. After seeing the clip, I am somewhat dissappointed...

I've been hearing people talk about this clip for a long time. This is the first time I've actually seen it, so thanks for posting the link.

I share your disappointment. The fight was terrible. It was a disgrace not only to Taijiquan and White Crane Kungfu, but also to all styles of Kungfu.

A Taiji teacher, I believe, in the other forum told me that I don't know what I am looking for.

This sounds to me like a cop out. You don't have to study Taijiquan to recognize that the fighting in the video is terrible. It's obvious. Just look.

Would someone be kind enough to show me some of taiji moves and principles that are used in this match?

Sure:

1. Wo Sheng Qi Le (Swing wildly without any concern for defense).
2. Bu Tai Ji Quan (Strike softly like water without doing much damage).
3. Bu Bai He Quan (Keep your chi floating at all times).
4. Hua Quan Xiu Tui (Don't root like a tree).
5. Lian Quan (Don't block).
6. Bu Lian Gong (Don't evade).
7. Dao Lao (Kick without power or balance).
8. Yi Chang Kong (Fight like a child).

Am I being harsh? Probably. Am I angry that this is what passes for Kungfu? Definitely. Would I fight either of these so-called masters without hesitation? Absolutely.

Honestly, I cannot see either of these guys lasting 1 minute against a Thai boxer, a Western boxer, a western wrestler, or a good Karateka.

/end rant

[Chiahua]

The translations of the chinese originals seem a bit off....

[Antonius]

Haha.

Ni dong bu dong?

[Chiahua]

zhi yi dian...
fei chang you hen yisi, hee hee

on a more serious note...
I wonder if Sifu Wong has seen the footage... I remember him referring to a match that fits that description, a match between taijiquan exponent and white crane exponents, in answer 1?

http://shaolin-wahnam.tripod.com/taijiquan/effective-fighting.html

If the footage is authentic he might be interested in seeing it.

[Quatro Bajina]

OUCH....

Below is the quote from Sifu Wong's answer in the link that sunyata provided.

Subsequently a public match, with the proceedings going to charity, was arranged between the Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan master

If this is the same with the clip that I provided, no wonder that person in the other forum got a little bit offended. He practice/teach Wu style taiji as well.

I didn't know this until I saw that link

[Quatro Bajina]

Antonius:

Thanks for pointing out which Taiji principles that are used in that fight

LOL

Honestly, I cannot see either of these guys lasting 1 minute against a Thai boxer, a Western boxer, a western wrestler, or a good Karateka.

Me either. IMO, their balance is very poor as well. Heck even I can take them down easily by using pure Shuai Chiao. I know one move that will do it: Single Leg takedown.

On another note:

I just realize this. Isn't Taiji exponent can actually maim/cause serious injuries with their strike because they are backed up with internal force?

I don't see that happening here....

[Antonius]

I'm assuming that Sifu hasn't actually seen the clip. I'll make sure to show it to him next time I see him. I'm sure he'll share in our disappointment.

[Antonius]

I just realize this. Isn't Taiji exponent can actually maim/cause serious injuries with their strike because they are backed up with internal force?

I don't know the rules of that fight. I also don't know if there was bad blood between the fighters or if it was gentlemanly. I can understand not wanting to main an opponent with a powerful strike, but how hard is it to disable him?

It should not be hard, especially for a master, to break an arm, break a few ribs, knock him out, lock him up, push him away, or sweep him down. You don't need to maim or kill, but you do need to do something other than wailing and flailing wildly without skill or force.

Grrrr. I'm still angry.

[Quatro Bajina]

New information of the fights

Hi all,

I am wondering whether this piece of information might shed some light in the fight. I just got this from the Wu style Taiji Teacher.

1. No kicks
2. No Locks
3. No Throws

In short, it's a boxing match.

Does this make a difference or not? Can you still use Taiji in a pure striking match?

[Antonius]

No kicks? There were definitely kicks thrown. Bad, weak, unbalanced, ungraceful, ugly kicks -- but kicks nonetheless. And yes, even without kicks or locks or throws, Taijiquan should look much different than what's in that video. Much different. The same goes for White Crane Kungfu.

I refuse to make excuses for these guys. You can make excuses all day long (or all life long), but the truth is quite clear in the video. The fight was an embarrassment. I feel sorry for anyone who feels the need to convince himself otherwise.

You simply cannot mystify basic fighting skills like timing, spacing, distancing, and power. Those skills are common to all striking arts. Those skills, among others, were all severely lacking in this fight. Without those basic skills, it doesn't really matter what style you are supposedly doing -- you are going to lose to anyone, even a relative beginner, who has those skills.

A western boxer with 3 years of training would eat both of those "masters" for breakfast.

[Ronan]

It is comical to even try to put that display of childish floundering in the catagory of a "Martial Arts Contest". I agree with Antonius, I have seen completely untrained fighters who would wipe the floor with those guys. But they did do it for charity and you have to give them some respect for that.

[JBurniche]

This is not exactly TaiChi, but perhaps you'll find it interesting. This is a clip of B.K. Frantzis demonstrating Bagua against one opponent:

http://www.energyarts.com/hires/bagua/fighting/fightmov.html

[Antonius]

Not bad. The narrator says it was completely spontaneous and that Frantzis had not met the other guy previously. If that's true, then I think it looks pretty good.

I think it's probably true. I met Frantzis at a seminar a few years back. When he invited people to attack him, I volunteered. I threw a few good kicks, and he handled them easily. He definitely has skills, unlike the guys in that video....

(Still angry )

[Andrew]

I finally had a chance to look at the original clip in this thread. To be frank and honest, if noone had told me what this was supposed to represent I would have thought it was a fight between two men who were fighting over a woman in public.

I saw nothing in the entire clip which I could relate to any form of martial art as I know it. There were no stances, no recognisable strategies, tactics, techniques, force .... in fact if my students (Level 1 and 2) were to fight like that (they haven't done any free sparring yet) I would give up teaching immediately.

Sorry .. but I am very disappointed with what was shown.

Andrew