Choy Li Fatt

[Michael S]

Dear family and visitors,

How about that course that Siheng Markus mentioned on Choy Li Fatt kung fu? I was hoping we could have a discussion about it like we have for the Praying Mantis and Wuzuquan courses.

Myself, I have been looking into Choy Li Fatt and am quite impressed with its sophisticated techniques despite it being so often branded a hard, external style. I was particularly surprised by the stances that face the opponent perpendicularly and that it seems to be by far the most popular martial art in Hong Kong according to a book I found.

If anyone is interested in learning a bit more, here's an article written by Sifu Lee Wei Joo: http://www.helium.com/items/1683951-...ay-fut-strikes.

Best regards,
Michael

[sonwukong]

Hi Michael, one of my kung fu teachers learned choy Lee fut when he was young. I was asking him about how he trained his combat efficiency in that system comparatively with his lai tung pai/poon kuen which kind of looks like a mix of southern shaolin and wing chun, which mainly employs chi Sao and chi gerk. although I think because of his somewhat rough English, he didn't quite understand what I was asking. But he proceeded to show me some different ways a choy Lee fut fighter might move in to attack as well as leak past the opponents guard and feint with the attacking hand and then Change the guard hand into the attack. I say all that to say, he instructed me to be weary of entering from the side on someone who is skilled in kicking, I didn't quite understand why. perhaps its easier to guard against both legs from the front? At any rate I look forward to others experiences and storys concerning this very interesting system.

[Markus Kahila]

Brief description of Choy Li Fatt, part 1

Dear Michael,


Thank you for starting this thread! So, let's put it to good use, shall we?


Here is the first part of a brief description of Choy Li Fatt I've compiled from Sifu's Q&A's.

Rest assured, this account will not be where the thread ends!

The Choy Li Fatt patriarch Chen Harng (Chan Heung)

"
Choy-Li-Fatt Kungfu (more popularly Choy Lee Fut, or Cai Li Fo) is a style of Southern Shaolin Kungfu founded by Chen Harng in honour of his three masters, Choy Ah Fook, Li Yau San and the Venerable Ching Choe (“Fatt” means “Buddha” and referred to Ching Choe). Chen Harng was a patriot who contributed much in the premature Taiping Rebellion and later the successful Chinese Revolution led by Dr Sun Yat Sen.

Chen Harng lived about two generations after Hoong Hei Khoon and Lok Ah Choy. His outstanding disciple, Cheong Hoong Sing, spread Choy-Li-Fatt Kungfu to many places. Hence, Choy-Li-Fat is often practiced in schools known as “Hoong Sing Khoon”, which means Hoong Sing School.


The original kungfu sets of Choy-Li-Fatt were named after the following eight Chinese characters (spelt here in Cantonese pronounciation, as most of the Choy-Li-Fatt exponents were Cantonese speaking): Tai, Ping, Tien, Kok, Cheong, Sau, Man, Lin — which means “Long Live the Heavenly Kingdom of Eternal Peace”. (“Taiping” is “Eternal Peace” in Chinese.) Many westerners may be interested to know that many Choy-Li-Fatt exponents were Christians.

Choy-Li-Fatt kungfu forms are long-reaching, wide-spreading and “hard” — ideal for revolutionaries fighting mass warfare. Choy-Li-Fatt Kungfu is famous for its variety of weapons, like the staff and the Big Knife. The Big Knife techniques used by the elite 18th Chinese Kuomintang Army were from Choy-Li-Fatt Kungfu.

Force training in Choy-Li-Fatt Kungfu usually uses the hard approach; the soft approach like chi kung and medittation, which takes a longer time, was not suitable to the early Choy-Li-Fatt masters in their revolutionary enviroment.


Choy-Li-Fatt is highly developed, and is one of the most famous martial arts in the world today. It was modified from Shaolin Kungfu by by the great masters Chen Harng and Cheong Hoong Sing for a particular purpose — combat efficiency, especially fighting en mass in revolutionary warfare.

- Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

Article compiled from:

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans98b/nov98-2.html

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans08a/mar08-3.html

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans98b/dec98-2.html

[Michael S]

Hi Michael, one of my kung fu teachers learned choy Lee fut when he was young. I was asking him about how he trained his combat efficiency in that system comparatively with his lai tung pai/poon kuen which kind of looks like a mix of southern shaolin and wing chun, which mainly employs chi Sao and chi gerk. although I think because of his somewhat rough English, he didn't quite understand what I was asking. But he proceeded to show me some different ways a choy Lee fut fighter might move in to attack as well as leak past the opponents guard and feint with the attacking hand and then Change the guard hand into the attack. I say all that to say, he instructed me to be weary of entering from the side on someone who is skilled in kicking, I didn't quite understand why. perhaps its easier to guard against both legs from the front? At any rate I look forward to others experiences and storys concerning this very interesting system.

Hello Sunwukong, that is an interesting story. As for your teacher, perhaps he was of the opinion that hard-hitting radial kicks like whirlwind kicks are easy to land on someone who is coming towards you obliquely.

Dear Michael,


Thank you for starting this thread! So, let's put it to good use, shall we?

Dear Siheng Markus,

You are very welcome and I think we shall . It's always great to see what information Sifu will bring to the table.

[Markus Kahila]

Brief Description of Choy Li Fatt, Part 2

Dear family and visitors,


Here is the part 2 of my brief description of Choy Li Fatt, adapted from Grandmaster Wong's articles. It sheds light on the characteristics of this beautiful style, and also presents some very interesting points which should raise more than a few good questions.

In the next installment, we will learn of the master who taught Choy Li Fatt to Grandmaster Wong!

Choy Li Fatt combat application

San Sau

It is interesting to note that Choy-Li-Fatt was first developed for warfare in the early Republican times. The great patriort Chen Harng was ready to sacrifice himself to fight for his country.

The traditional approach to sparring in kungfu training was first learning a complete kungfu set, then applying patterns of the set for combat. Choy-Li-Fatt patriots in the midst of their revolutionary work, sought a short cut to kungfu sparring. They did away with long kungfu sets, and trained only individual techniques to meet combat situations. These individual techniques are called "san sau".

San Sau literally means "Miscellaneous Hands", which is a figurative way of referring to specific techniques to meet particular combat situations.

The Wave Tactic of Choy Li Fatt Kungfu
Please click this link to read more of the Choy Li Fatt wave tactic

Principles of “using hard to subdue soft” and “using circles to overcome straight lines” are typical of Choy-Li-Fatt Kungfu.

A master of Choy-Li-Fatt Kungfu may use the wave concept in such a way that no matter what you do, you will find his movements overwhelming you, like waves tossing you about in a choppy sea.

When you throw him a punch, you may find his arm crushing down on your punching arm. When you try to draw back your arm to prevent it from being hit, you may find his other arm swinging right into your solar plexus. As you try to move sideways or to your back to avoid the swinging attack, you may find his attack has changed direction and comes smashing onto your face.

Choy Li Fatt and Other Kungfu Styles

Choy-Li-Fatt Kungfu and Wing Choon Kungfu complement each other excellently. Choy-Li-Fatt's forte is in mass combat and its relative weakness is high-level individual fighting. Wing Choon Kungfu is the opposite, its forte is in individual fighting and its relative weakness in mass combat.

The forms of Hoong Ka and Choy-Li-Fatt are more similar than different. This is no surprise as both developed from Southern Shaolin. Stances in Choy-Li-Fatt, however, are usually wider, and its practitioners use extended arms in swinging movements more frequently. Comparatively, both its attacks and defences come more in an arc, whereas those in Hoong Ka are more linear. Much of Hung Gar and Choy-Li-Fatt is based on the Shaolin Lohan Set, which is a prototype set of Shaolin Kungfu. The school of Lohan Kungfu specializes in the Lohan set.

Choy-Li-Fatt masters did not make use of the internal aspects of Shaolin Kungfu - not because they were not there, but because they were not needed. Now, when situations have changed, you may want to go back to your source and make good use of the treasure which was originally there.



Article complied and adapted from:

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans98b/dec98-2.html

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans08a/mar08-3.html

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans97/nov-dec97.html

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans07a/feb07-3.html

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans01b/nov01-3.html

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans00a/feb00-3.html

Best wishes,

[sonwukong]

So the revolutionary choy Lee fut exponents did not train the classical choy Lee fut sets as we know them? Did they use sequence fighting as a shortcut as well? Perhaps right after the San shou stage? In their San shou training, did they apply one pattern to every typical attack? Or did they try to limit themselves to a few patterns that worked well for them in many different situations? Very interesting to see a different approach!

[Markus Kahila]

Dear Sonwukong,


All good questions. Perhaps you wish to ask them directly from Grandmaster Wong?


I'll be soon expanding our "10 Questions for Grandmaster" series to this Choy Li Fatt -thread as well.


I recommend you formulate one excellent question from your many good ones, and shoot again when the competition is on!


Best wishes,

[sonwukong]

oh my goodness, I will try my best to think up a good enough question! another little thing i'm curious about, does anyone know if there will be a focus on the ching jong at all? I think that it means "balance dummy" and at any rate, seems to be a very interesting training tool used by some schools of choy lee fut, just as the mook jong is to wing chun. I've found a video demonstrating part of a form on one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky70E88tFrU

seems like it could be fun to try to build one and i'd imagine it would be quite difficult to come across one otherwise. Anybody have some experience with such a contraption? is it perhaps more of a conditioning tool than anything else?

[Markus Kahila]

Dear Sonwukong,


Probably no emphasis on the wooden dummy at the Choy Li Fatt course, since its purposes can be achieved by other, more effective means.


Grandmaster Wong used to practice the wooden dummy quite extensively in his younger days. Here is a short quote on his experiences on external force training methods such as the wooden dummy vs. the internal ones:

"
Wuzu Kungfu (Kungfu of Five Ancestors) of Sifu Chee Kim Thong was most famous for internal force, and I wouldn't want to miss this opportunity to learn from him.

I was very impressed with the internal force of my Wuzu classmates. When I sparred with my sihengs (senior kungfu brothers), I could not move their arms. I thought I had strong arms. When I trained with Uncle Righteousness, I knocked my arms against a wooden man every night, and applied medicated vinegar to strengthen them. But when I persisted in knocking arms with my Wuzu sihengs in “Seven-Star Knocking”, my arms were swollen and my Siheng Chee Boon Leong, who is Sifu Chee's eldest son, had to apply medical powder on them.
"

Taken from this Q&A.


Best wishes,

[Michael S]

Probably no emphasis on the wooden dummy at the Choy Li Fatt course, since its purposes can be achieved by other, more effective means.

It certainly does look fun, though . I'm quite a fan of dummies, myself but I suppose they are somewhat outmoded compared to the internal methods available. Strangely enough, I have a bit of an urge to build one although I don't know what I'd do with it.

Kind regards,

[Markus Kahila]

Brief description of Choy Li Fatt, Part 3: Sifu Chow Kok Chee

Dear all,


This next one concludes our brief description of Choy-Li-Fatt kungfu, and it's my favourite one.

If someone still has doubts of the combat effectiveness of this art, the story below should effectively remove any suspicions!

An important and very effective pattern in Choy-Li-Fatt kungfu.
Can you figure out the applications?

Sifu Chow Kok Chee


Chow Kok Chee was born in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia in 1945. I spent some of my childhood days in Kuala Lumpur and he was my childhood friend. In fact we stayed in the same house. Years later when I attended a special course at the University of Malaya in Kuala Lumpur, I spent a lot of time with Chow Kok Chee, drinking tea and talking about and practicing kungfu together. From him I learned Choy-Li-Fatt and Ngok Ka Kungfu.

Chow Kok Chee is a kungfu lover and terrific fighter. He learned from some of the greatest kungfu masters of the time around Kuala Lumpur:

Sifu Loong Poh is the patriarch of Ngok Ka Kungfu and is an expert in Iron Shirt. Once he broke the legs of a Taekwondo master who executed a double flying kick at him by merely taking the kick in a challenge.

Sifu Chen Choy is the patriarch of Choy-Li-Fatt Kungfu. He taught at probably the best known kungfu school in Kuala Lumpur, which was Lien Seng Koon, or “ The School of Combined Victory”. He also introduced Northern Lion Dance acrobatic techniques into Southern Lion Dance, bringing it to an heitherto unknown level.

Sifu Soong Siew Por was a disciple of Wong Fei Hoong. I am grateful to him because the "Ng Long Pat Kua Khuen", or "Fifth Brother Octagonal Staff", a famous staff set in Hoong Ka Kungfu that I practice was from him. He taught it to Sifu Chow Kok Chee, who in turn taught it to me in exchange for some weapon sets.

Sifu Chow Kok Chee is a disciple and god-son of all these three patriarchs. It was no co-incident. Sifu Choy in his young days went around in search of the best masters he could find. He treated his masters so well that they adopted him as a god-son.


Sifu Chow Kok Chee personally told me that he had been involved in over 200 gang fights, many of which were of life-death consequences, and some of which were ambushes of ten or more attackers with deadly weapons like hand axes, choppers, spikes as well as concentrated acid and powered glass. He survived them all. His “Cosmos Pa Kua Palm” of Choy-Li-Fatt kungfu helped him to evade, and his “Big Boss Fist”, where the fist was held with the middle knuckle protruding out, sometimes called an “elephant fist”, helped him to strike down assailants.

He has a small scar at the side of his face where he was burnt by acid. He told me he could be blind had he dodged a second late when an attacker threw acid at his face. He has a long, big scar on his back, a reminder of his survival from a scimitar attack. He said he could be dead had he not trained “Sap Sam Tai Poh” or the “Art of Thirteen Grand Guards” which enabled him to withstand weapon attacks on his body. Such fights were barbaric and we are glad we no longer live in such an era and in such a lawless society. But it shows how naive some modern softies are when they ask whether kungfu could be used for fighting!
"

- Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

(Text emphasis added)

Best wishes,

[Guest]

Thanks alot for sharing Siheng. The story of Sifu's childhood friend is amazing.

Isn't it amazing; they say that alot of Kungfu, if not all, originated from Shaolin.
Sifu first spreads the Core of Shaolin to the world, and now many years later all these Sets and Styles, like history is repeating in our School

[Michael S]

Years later when I attended a special course at the University of Malaya in Kuala Lumpur, I spent a lot of time with Chow Kok Chee, drinking tea and talking about and practicing kungfu together.

Oh, to have been a fly on the wall...

[sonwukong]

I had read that before in the question answers a while back and have been very curious ever since. Does grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit practice the art of thirteen grand guards?!?!? O: has he ever spoke in more detail of the skill? Or is it perhaps closer to the famed golden bell than I am realizing? One last question if anyone has some information, is the cosmos pa kua palm from choy li fat perhaps of the same origin as the patt kua set practiced in shaolin wahnam?

[Markus Kahila]

I had read that before in the question answers a while back and have been very curious ever since. Does grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit practice the art of thirteen grand guards?!?!? O: has he ever spoke in more detail of the skill? Or is it perhaps closer to the famed golden bell than I am realizing? One last question if anyone has some information, is the cosmos pa kua palm from choy li fat perhaps of the same origin as the patt kua set practiced in shaolin wahnam?

- Very good questions, Sonwukong! I give you the same advice as before:


Wait for the "Questions for Grandmaster" -competition which will open soon! Then you have the opportunity to ask the Grandmaster directly, which will certainly be the most beneficial option.


Best wishes,