The Shaolin Praying Mantis

[Shaolinfist]

Darn, this looks like fun but I cannot watch youtube at work. I will have to take a look when I get home!!

Phil

[AlexBaranosky]

Very nice Alex,
At 00:06 Do you mean the reverse Hanging of Golden Lotus like technique, which you would say is belonging to Han Tong’s Extended Arm?

So I think your point are very interesting, let's see what others may say!

I think that was my intention when I suggested it, but I think I was just guessing on that one What do you think of my other ideas?

[Luo Lang]

Your guessing is quite interesting! I would like to hear others guessing as well!

Just to make it a little more curious: The Reverse hanging of Golden Lotus, could that also be a typical Shaolin Long range pattern instead of an extended arm pattern?

Wang Lang's Praying Mantis though at the the end of the set is quite obvious right?

I see a pattern also which is also found in the Five Animals Set:
Double Dragons plays with Pearls.

Just let us have some fun!

[Shaolinfist]

OK heres my pop!

Well I must say that was more difficult than I imagined! I am sure I have got some of them right, however others I took a guess at them!
Following Alex's format I have put the times in red.

1. First Emperor’s Long Fist 0:31
2. Han Tong’s Extended Arm 0:40
3. Zhang En’s Close and Cover
4. Wen Yuan’s Short Strike
5. Ma Ji’s Close Combat
6. Sun Heng’s Monkey Style 0:54-0:57
7. Huang Nian’s Hand-Anchor
8. Mien Shen’s Cotton Palm 0:08, 0:50-0:53
9. Jin Xiang’s Deflect and Strike 0:27-0:30
10. Huai De’s Grab and Throw
11.Liu Xing’s Hook and Grip 0:46
12.Tan Fang’s Ear-Strike 0:37
13. Xan Qing’s Felling Techniques 0:22
14. Lin Chong’s Continuous Kicks 0:42-0:48
15. Meng Su’s Seven-Step Pressing Attacks 0:10-0:20
16. Cui Lian’s Strike from Bosom
17. Yang Gun’s Gripping Techniques
18.Wang Lang’s Praying Mantis 0:01, 0:25

[Matt F.]

My take on this exercise will be a bit different.

As we all have experienced, it is the skill behind the technique that is most important. So, I asked myself, why would a Shaolin student (who was skilled enough to search for combat with masters) need his own master's help in making a set that contained 18 techniques? It seems that the Sap Pat Sau Set, must not be a collection of 18 techniques, but rather a consolidation of 18 skills. And possibly, several skills included in each technique.

Wang Lang went back to the Shaolin temple where his own Sifu, the Venerable Fu Ju helped him to incorporate these features into the Sap Pat Sau Set, which means the "Eighteen-collection" Set or the "Eighteen-search".

Because Sap Pat Sau was developed by a Shaolin practicioner and his Shaolin master, at the Shaolin Temple, I think must be assumed that Shaolin was the base for the entire set. Therefore, I think that feature 1 (First Emperor's Long Fist) must be a feature of the entire set, as it would form the foundation of all the techniques.

Features 3 (Zhang En's Close and Cover), 7 (Huang Nian’s Hand-Anchor) and 9 (Jin Xiang’s Deflect and Strike) are seen in combination throughout the entire set. These features all seem to combine to block/intercept the opponents attack, press/hold the attack, and counter with the opposite hand. There are several times thoughout the set that blocks are quickly followed by counters, as well as block/trap/counter happening at the same time.

Feature 5 (Ma Ji’s Close Combat) combined with feature 12 (Tan Fang’s Ear-Strike) can be seen in the elbow strikes. While feature 5 is combined with feature 4 (Wen Yuan’s Short Strike) at 0:38 seconds. This technique could easily also contain aspects of feature 12. It would seem that Short Stike refers to generating a powerful strike without large body movement. This would be especially useful during very close combat.

Feature 15 (Meng Su’s Seven-Step Pressing Attacks) seems to be a common theme, seen at the beginning of the set, and then again at 0:42. Feature 14 (Lin Chong’s Continuous Kicks) is added to the pressing attack beginning at 0:42, which adds many levels of complexity to the attack. Now the defender needs to deal with not only high strikes as well as low strikes, but also the ever changing range from hand strikes, to kicks, to jumping kicks.

It would seem the main felling sequences begin at 0:47, and include not just feature 10 ( Huai De’s Grab and Throw) and feature 13 (Xan Qing’s Felling Techniques), but also feature 17 (Yang Gun’s Gripping Techniques) and feature 11 (Liu Xing’s Hook and Grip). The technique at 0:31 also seems to include many of the felling features.

For the entire set, it seems as though the 18 features are melded together and combined in such a way that pointing out one feature alone is not possible. Overall, it seems as though the techniques in Sap Pat Sau are designed to counter more quickly than what might have been typical (striking from the waist) and from unexpected angles or arm positions. In addition, it seems as though leg attacks (not just kicking, but also uprooting/altering the opponent's stances) are often combined with hand attacks.

It would seem that these features, combined in such a way, and presented through unexpected techniques, would be very useful for a smaller person facing a larger opponent. I believe that is one of the strong point of Mantis Kungfu.

-Matt

[Shaolinfist]

Very nice post Matt, I was actually wondering myself if some of the techniques were difficult to isolate due to them being present within other techniques. I personally felt that the elbows were a feature of Ma Ji’s Close Combat as opposed to Tan Fang’s Ear-Strike. That is just a guess though really as I have no idea!
Looking forward to hearing what you think of our observations Siheng Roland!

Phil

[Matt F.]

Very nice post Matt, I was actually wondering myself if some of the techniques were difficult to isolate due to them being present within other techniques. I personally felt that the elbows were a feature of Ma Ji’s Close Combat as opposed to Tan Fang’s Ear-Strike. That is just a guess though really as I have no idea!
Looking forward to hearing what you think of our observations Siheng Roland!

Phil

Dear Phil,

Thanks!

When applying the elbow technique for an Ear-Strike application, think more of what the opposite palm is doing rather than the elbow.

-Matt

[Luo Lang]

Dear Matt,
Thanks for your very intersting observations! You seem to have a very good eye for that

So, I asked myself, why would a Shaolin student (who was skilled enough to search for combat with masters) need his own master's help in making a set that contained 18 techniques? It seems that the Sap Pat Sau Set, must not be a collection of 18 techniques, but rather a consolidation of 18 skills. And possibly, several skills included in each technique.

I agree with you, the 18 collection Set seems to be indeed more than just a collection of just techniques.

Wang Lang may had returned back to the monastery with a lot of material and information. His Sifu who was for sure very skillfull helped him to cristallize what he had found out.

As we all know, techniques though may help us to develop the necessery skills. Furthermore sequences are a progression of developing skills wich are needed. A Set is a consolidation of many patterns to train on skill level as well.

It's is in my opinion to compare with our Sifu's work with the basic combat sequences and the resulting Sets out of them. As we all know at the end a single pattern like Single Tiger may not only incorporate different apps, but also include different skills and the training of them. Single Tiger may be used as a force training. It may be also used to deflect an incoming force. It may be used as a grip or as a direct counter. And much more of course

For the entire set, it seems as though the 18 features are melded together and combined in such a way that pointing out one feature alone is not possible.

It is indeed not easy I personally think therefor, that trying to find out the different single patterns and name them later on will help us to get to the finer points of the features. and the skills.
Again it's quite the same approach like Sifu is trying to teach us. make it simple first, them progress gradually.

the techniques in Sap Pat Sau are designed to counter more quickly than what might have been typical (striking from the waist) and from unexpected angles or arm positions. In addition, it seems as though leg attacks (not just kicking, but also uprooting/altering the opponent's stances) are often combined with hand attacks.

Very nice observations. I agree, the stricking attacks as well as the kicking attacks are quite straight forward, which is indeed representing a Praying Mantis' nature.

I also agree that the attacks, as well as the defences seems to be combined often. Strikes with kicks at the same time. Grips and strikes. Uprooting kicking. Uprooting striking.

I also often see the tactic, defence cum counter at the very same time. Often I see that this tactic as said is performed quite straight forward. I rarely see the sinking back.

Any more thoughts?

Happy training!

[Luo Lang]

Dear all,
During my researches I came across this Master of Praying mantis Kung Fu. The Master in the video is called Sifu Hou Chang Xin.

I wonder what Wahnam students think of this performance.

Enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kxpTJQ_et4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNS7hDxQVi0&feature=related

[Luo Lang]

Dear all,
Thanks again for the nice contributions.

While Matt gave some very interesting comments (which are impressive by the Way), for convenience, to make it simple, we shall continue to find out if we can see the features in the video link posted by Chia Hua.

Aagain to make it simple first, we shall continue to relate one feature to one pattern.

I shall leave you playing around, without giving too much comments for some time. Please remember, it's not a play to find out who's smarter, rather it is a good way to train your observation skills. There is no right or wrong, so please don't hesitate to contribute.

There is a lot of things comming up for the next few months here....The aim though is to continiously work for the next month on different things.

I also ask all students to take part. Even if it's not your style or you won't participate at the course. In fact it's a good training to all, to deepen the understanding of your Kung Fu!

Best regards,

Roland

[AlexBaranosky]

1. First Emperor’s Long Fist 0:21
5. Ma Ji’s Close Combat 0:17
8. Mien Shen’s Cotton Palm 0:20
13. Xan Qing’s Felling Techniques at 0:51 & 0:48
15. Meng Su’s Seven-Step Pressing Attacks 0:02-0:11
16. Cui Lian’s Strike from Bosom 0:03

[AlexBaranosky]

Does anyone have any ideas where these two may be found in the set?

6. Sun Heng’s Monkey Style
7. Huang Nian’s Hand-Anchor

They've been tough ones for me to figure out.

[Charles David]

Monkey Set

Dear Readers,

First off, here is the link to the video again Eighteen Elder Form.


Dear Alex Siheng,

A monkey pattern is found at :06 and several times after this. It is similar to our "Reverse Hanging of Golden Lotus".

:29-:31 looks different than any pattern found in our Monkey set, but it would be a good way for a small exponent to avoid an aggressive attack and execute a simultaneous attack, similar to the hidden attack in the retreat pattern "Spiritual Monkey Brushes Leaves."

:43 is strongly reminiscent of "Dragon Rises Tiger Leaps."


There are others, but my lunch break is over.


Yours,

Chas.

[Kingmonkey]

Hi everyone
I'll try my luck on this one....

...could the pattern at "12, "23/24, "43/44 be a Monkeypattern? I think I have seen something similar in a Pek Kwar monkey set.

I have no idea what a hand-anchor may look like, could it be the pattern at "4/5 and "16?

looking foreward for the clarification

Pat

[AlexBaranosky]

I was going to guess that the pattern at 0:12 was a monkey pattern, as it seems to be a possible striek to the groin, which the monkey seems fond of....