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As Anthony mentioned in the earlier post, I had quite an experience in Malaysia last August (2005). Towards the end of the course, Kai was demonstrating defense techiques against a wrestler. And I was the "lucky" volunteer.
I went to grab Kai at his waist as wrestlers do, and Kai simple took a slight step back and put his elbows out right in my chest. He did not really strike but simply had his elbows pointing at my chest. I gasped as the elbow touched my the left side of my chest.
In previous demonstration and sparring session I would get hit, thrown you name it, but after doing a chi flow (which I love to do), I am fine. But this time around, it was really deep. At the end of the class and for the rest of the class I could not focus as much and my mood changed. I felt sad and couldn't smile as much. The next day I told Sifu and he opened some points and I felt a great relief right away and the pain was more dull and not as focused. But that was the end of the course and I had to go home to go back to work.
It took me a month to get rid of the pain. It didnt really hurt as much outside (no black and blues) but more on the inside. Some times if I would take a deep breath it would really hurt.
I have been practcing Chi Kung for over 5 years and can over come injuries without much effort. When I go snowboarding and crash people would think that I broke all the bones. But I simply get up relax, let the chi flow and I am ok. Last summer when I was riding my BMX, I slipped and the metal spike of the pedal went right into my shin bone. (It's pretty gross) But it made a hole in my shin bone. So same as before, I just let the chi flow for a while, and kept on riding for the rest of the day (a few more hours). My point is, external injuries are quite easy for me to overcome.
But the injury from Kai was internal. Even as I practiced Chi Kung it would not go away after a few days, for me that was very strange. I went to a local accupuncturist to speed up the healing prosses. Not that Chi Kung didn't work, but because the injury was quite deep. He put some herbs on the my chest and did some accupuncture. I felt a great relief and continued to practice Chi Kung. And little by little the injuty disappeared. But the most importantly it disappeared when I completely let go of it in my mind. And now I feel better then before.
A rather late arrival to this party . I have found this thread highly amusing and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Golden Balls (am I pronouncing that properly?),
I have to thank you for bringing such a great source of amusement to this Forum. Your words have brought me more laughter than anything I can remember so - thank you .
You mentioned that you were considering a course with Sifu. My advice - save your money. You have clearly reached an incredible level already, to be able to make such astute and revolutionary observations regarding people's levels of awareness and ability. From your words alone we should be learning from you!
Your gems like "Move to the side", "block" or even "move faster" - priceless (and there was me thinking that there were no blocks within any of those clips!). You can't see it, but I'm crying with joy just now. You, with your awe-inspiring lineage of "Just some guys", your lengthy experience of 14 years (and, of course, your Golden Balls) - you are able to see right to the heart of our Art and our school! Incredible!
I'm off to do something else now, but I'll post again tommorrow. Please feel free to elabourate on any point either I or anyone else has raised. I'm starting at the beginning (it's quite important to us to do this, but I don't know why), so it'll take a few posts to get up to date.
The more of your priceless observations and theories the better!
Please enlighten to me as to YOUR own actual fighting experience.
By the information you have so far provided about yourself, which incidently, is vague, you dont seem to have trained with anyone longer than two years, 'tried' and not learnt various styles/systems.
In my part of the world you fit the description 'Jack of all trades, master of none'.
Your comments illustrate this point.
Through your truly mediocre understanding of not only martial arts in general but 'particularly' internal martial arts and the associated energy system of meridians/collaterals and Qi you display an understanding of a complete beginner whom hasnt even grasped the basic fundamental concepts.
Been practicing for 15 years eh?
Maybe you should have spent more time learning first.
First to darryl and cymon i find it funny to attack me as to how long i have trained considering that you have only had intensive courses that last around 10 hours 2 times a year if that , the amount of training you have had in all your life under shaolin wahnam i have had it in only one month from a teacher of same or higher calibre.Considering sifu can give someone a lifetimes worth of training in only 1 week i guess i must have mastered abuot 7-8 styles by now
Divineshadow, when people post up about chi , and internal blockages etc how do you tell someone is blocked or was blocked , cant you see the chi ? not you particularly i mean in general on the forum. How do you diagnose the blockage that was there or was caused ? I know sifu wong mentioned his son could see chi when he practised.
Eugene thanks for posting i really aprreciate it , i must admit though, that had you not been telling me this and i heard it from someone else i would have said some people are mad.
I would like to ask a couple of things ,
1) why do you believe or were you told a reason, that you couldnt heal this with chi kung on your own , as i was having a conversation on another thread that chi kung doesnt heal everything that it cant access all levels.
2) you mention that you felt really much better when you let go of it in your mind, do you believe maybe it was this thought that you were keeping in your mind was harrassing you and making you worse ? Like omg omg ive been hit internally what am i going to do i cant fix it, and the mind was creating a bigger blockage ?
Im not attacking you, simply addressing you in a manner that I interperet you to be addressing us - questioning, doubting and partly informed, with a hint of underlying disrespect and 'I know better than you' attitude.
Yet, the difference is, you get your questions answered.
I am merely playing.
Oh and your comment on how much training I have....presumptious...like most of your comments.
Cymon good to know your not attacking me sorry if you feel i dont answer questions , that ppl ask me , i think i tried as much as possible to answer.
I would agree about the presumptions as you mentioned yes everything that i post is presumed about shaolin wahnam and a lot of kung fu in general.
But the reason for this is unfortunately because a lot of what we are told "works " in kung fu is because it has been handed down or because its 2000 years old thus these too are presumptions. Thats what i believe makes it so hard to state solid facts.
...unfortunately because a lot of what we are told "works " in kung fu is because it has been handed down or because its 2000 years old thus these too are presumptions. Thats what i believe makes it so hard to state solid facts.
It's true. Many things we are told are presumptions, outright lies, or other forms of hyperbole. However if I didn't experience it myself and have some of the experiences stated on the website validated personally by some of the instructors and Sifu Wong himself, I would have every right to be skeptical. If I was to doubt my own perceptions, then maybe I'm nuts .... or an arhant. But since both don't seem too likely, I'll continue practicing (and enjoying!) my qigong.
PS, I've trained with a few masters of different styles (not for any extended period of time unfortunately), and they all could express power. All of them manifested power or gung in cantonese in ways that were unique, a result of their differing experiences and training methods. Some were like compressed springs that were ready to just blow up, while others where fluid but could just snap and manifest energy instantaneously. But it was most certainly there, and I would not have wanted to be in the line of fire...
So basically, you're saying that it's okay to be insulting because YOU feel that Sifu Wong's Q&As were insulting, and that it's okay to be presumptuous because YOU feel that kung fu tradition is presumptuous.
The difference between you and me is quite simple: I have direct experience of both the internal and external standards, whereas you obviously do not.
And please don't waste our time arguing that you have experience of internal force and high-level internal kung fu. Your posts have already revealed your lack of understanding. To argue this point further would only serve to further illustrate your lack of understanding -- and to waste everyone's time.
It would be similar to arguing, ad nauseum, that "Golden Testicles" is a name that expresses luck, not disrespect.
Last edited by Antonius; 20 October 2005, 11:48 PM.
To put it short, today, to be able to fight using kungfu ,even in what you call a "low level" is comparing to 99% of kungfu practicioners, a wonderful thing!
Today, to be able to generate energy flow and overcome common health problems and injuries is comparing to 99% of chikung practicioners, an incredible thing!
I think Anthony has hit the mark with the last post, basically, only a person who has experienced directly these arts can tell the diference.
It reminds me of some Taichichuan masters I´ve met, who talked and talked a lot about fighting but they themselves had no real experience of it, they would laugh and critizice some practicioners sparring when for me it was obvious that at least the latter could use a bit of their kungfu (even though it could be low level).
wonderfull the thread is still running and still doubts arround.
For my brothers and sisters please leave stories about Kai´s Gong out of the dicussion. If I like to tell or to open my knowledge for the puplic I would do it by myself. For example it is not a good idea to tell outstanding people who reach the level of "Golden Bell" in our family or other specialities.
Normaly if people like to open them self for new kowledge or expirience they will change the kind of words they using in the discussion if not I would not start a endless discussion with them.
Own expirience is the best, sit on a chair watching TV and discuss about a boxing wordchampion fight ,how to make it better is a worth thing I can think about but very common in our media word. And this worth you can have in the most pubs, endless discussion with people who knowing everthing better because of own expirience.
My Grappling Master Gene LeBelle would say: "If he doubt choke him out" and not "If he doubt discuss it out" Just a joke with depth.
I too asked questions on Shaolin Wahnam kung fu and self defence and got my questions answered. Although I did detect defensiveness in the replies ,but I guess that's probably natural, it didn't degenerate to attacks which I think this thread has.
Kin Tama I think you began the thread with a hostile presented opinion on Shaolin Whanam Kung fu training. Most replies you've got have been equally hostile back.
If this forum is a place where things can be discussed, critisized and explored constructively, which it usually has, let's keep it respectful hey guys, and stop insulting one another .
Kin Tama I too have never come across a martial arts school that trains the way Wahnam does for combat efficiency, I'm interested in learning something, but all I'm reading is subtle and overt insults back and forth. Let's discuss!
Sunyata very interesting post, i have noticed this too, with different masters, how they express power differently. How some penetrate and others bounce you as well as the way you described it.
Antonious
So basically, you're saying that it's okay to be insulting because YOU feel that Sifu Wong's Q&As were insulting, and that it's okay to be presumptuous because YOU feel that kung fu tradition is presumptuous.
Interesting logic.
in short yes !!! Well tbh im not being insulting on purpose or intending it, but then again i dont believe sifu wong meant to be insulting. But i wouldnt say that i believe kung fu tradition is presumptious, i would say that practitioners of kung fu nowadays are presumptious.
Wonder if any of you had read about Chan hak Fu & Wu gong yi (wu kong yi) having a charity fight, one was wu style tai chi successor 3rd generation and the other respectively a white crane stylist, it would be interesting for everyone to read about how high level amazing internal grandmasters they were highly respected, and talked about.
A random fight with some info http://www.wustyleuk.com/history.html
I had read about the fight and deadly power from quite a few books. Before i saw it so i was desperate to get some footage, i believe it is either 1940;s or 1960;s.
Also you state the difference between "external breaks" and "internal breaks" and yet the epitome of the wahnam breaking video clips is 1 brick !!! I find that quite ridiculous to be tottaly honest, especially if external breaks as you put it are more impressive.
You say the baseball bat break is external, since wahnam schools internal is soooo much more powerful why isnt this demonstrated on the site. Instead a thin little stick that is so long is shown to demonstrate golden bell as well as a chopper that doesnt even cut the cloth the demonstator is wearing.
I have seen internal demonstrations where the practitioner bends 2 spears on his eyeballs whilst his eyes were shut. It was a series on bbc in the uk a friend taped for me, called mind body and kickass moves. ( I have converted this to dvd and would be interested to send it through the post to a few of the people on the forum who also could make copies for other members) Its a bout 5-6 hours long 10 episodes and it shows many people from many different styles performing their respective styles and chi kung demos. Just send me your address and i would be happy to forward it as maybe it will show people that there is so much more out there and that there shouldnt be the attitude of our style is so high level compared to everyone else and there arent any other teachers out there who can do this.
Also i do not understand how you came to the conclusion that the baseball bat break was external ? Is it because the guy was wearing a karate uniform and it was fast moving ? He didnt rub the bat and crack it ?
Also what do you describe as internal and what as external if its external did he train his bone so much to be poweful ? Is this what you mean, again this is internal training as its energy that makes the bone harder. I think what you mean is soft and hard not internal and external, as you can still be hard and internal.
You posted a kata which is 14 megs so i didnt download it, and you also posted a nice demo of sifu wong, which is nice but if you want to see real gong look at chen xiaowangs demos there is no comparison. Whilst doing a staff demo on his tapes he is so powerful that when he turns around the staff snaps in two.
The sparring clips are also interesting.Im sure that the way he bounces people around is external to some people on this forum too.
Personally i somewhat dislike oyama for saying as long as he is alive no westerner would win in any of the competitions he hosted , but he was a tremendous fighter.
Also you and others state i havent had experience with internal power or high level chi kung yadda yadda. Let me try and explain what i say and maybe you will understand where i am coming from, When you talk about chi and breaking or chi and golden bell, this is one type of chi, for example wei chi or protective chi. On other levels there is other types of energy, not only chi , which you cannot sense, if an internal master uses this level of energy you might not be able to feel it because you arent tapped in to it.
Also if chi condenses into the body after years of training and turns to jing again it looks like external power, because it becomes natural , no need to direct it anymore, its always there. Once this happens again you wont sense it like the chi you are used to.
Its not the energy you have been aligned to , its like light, theres a massive spectrum but we only see one part of it, if you could say we are like radio's and a teacher tunes you into a station, after that whenever you do chi kung you tune into that station.
When you talk about jing or shen again they are other 2 levels which also have their own spectrum within them.
Now i have heard over and over again but our system does EEEEEEEEEEEVERYTHING, face it it doesnt the energy you use is a certian level of chi like a lot of systems. So if someone uses their type of hard chi kung or another type of energy it doesnt mean automatically , ah they have no gung its external because i cant feel it.
On the dvd i was talking about earlier a japanese man emits ki - in his shout that is so powerful it rings a bell, he stands about 20 odd feet away from a bell, shouts at it and it rings a massive 20-30+kg bell.
Does this mean he is low level because you wouldnt feel the chi in the same way you are used to practising it.
I have also been asked time and time again but how do you know, because i have seen the differences I have been in touch physically personally with people who work on all different levels. It gets boring after a while because its like trying to explain to someone who have never seen it from the depths of a 3rd world country what a television set is as well as how it works.
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. I have found this thread highly amusing and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
some people are mad.
sorry if you feel i dont answer questions , that ppl ask me , i think i tried as much as possible to answer.
Let's discuss!
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