God versus Science

[Old-Liu]

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE. Furthermore a 'scholar warrior' should ask questions, should'nt he/she?

Yes he should- or she should!

I believe that it is perfectly possible to combine both empty mind/meditation activities with pondering, scientific work, academic work, guided trance shamanic journeys - whatever.

I also fully recognise that there are many ways both to ask, and to answer questions - not always with words or research. But I have the utmost regard and respect for thinking!

[Old-Liu]

Darran,

I was quoting to provide references for the list of points Id made.

Power (knowledge) is certainly a motivator for my posts on this thread, but not domination.

Thats what separates me from the likes of Nietzsche

I think both you and Old Liu misinterpret my valuing of the philosophy of Neitzsche. I'll quote myself:



I greatly appreciate his work and I acknowledge his importance to western culture, especially his reflections on ethics, religion and morality. Everyone can learn from Nietzsche.

However in the final analysis (mine own) his is a philosophy of Self and Other, of superiority/inferiority:



....that Self>Other is the root of all imperialism, colonialism, war and genocide is something that I consider to be self-evident.

Nietzsche's work is doubly important if we were to consider his formative biographical conditions and to parallel his philosophical work with his physical and mental health. Much would be learned about energy blockage from this exercise.

Im sure we'll have to agree to disagree on Neitzsche or this will end up being a very long thread...thats my summation for the evening - Im off to evolve

* Remind you of anything?

Do you believe that thinking too much can cause an 'energy blockage'?

I believe that certain ideas, or even images, films, etc. can cause mental breakdown - there have been many cases of it in fact, such as the man who watched 'Bugs' and had a psychotic episode and sadly killed his beloved daughter.

But that's an example - your idea - where we can say that for you, in your 'structure' an idea or way of describing the event is perfectly valid. Does it necessarily transfer to other people? Is it really a 'qi' blockage? To me, it doesn't matter, because I accept it as valid to you, and part of your 'map' of your reality. What worries me just a tint, is if that idea then extended in to 'thinking is bad for you'.

[Old-Liu]

Just because a group of doctors hasn't confirmed it, does not make it untrue.

That’s very true. On the other hand, though, is there any reason why doctors wouldn’t confirm it if it was true? Don’t forget, these people – doctors – are healers, with children under their care, or people they care about, or desperately want to save. They aren’t the enemy – they’re not refusing irrefutable evidence – are they?

If I had dismissed Shaolin Chi Kung because it was unproven by doctors, I would be missing out on a lot.

Well that’s fair enough – all of us, I should think, have experience of realising that there’s more to the world than strict, orthodox views might sometimes have us believe. It is an interesting and magical place, and orthodox views aren’t always right – sometimes they’re only the best guess.

But they will have their proof in the near future.

We DO cure "incurable" illnesses, because from our viewpoint there is only one disease and we know how to rectify the situation. They will have their proof soon. And soon people will have no excuse for being chronically sick.

Mark

Well, that will certainly be interesting to see! The only thing that worries me slightly there, and I hope you don’t mind me pointing it out as I might actually be mis-reading you, is that you seem to think of doctors in a confrontational way, before the information is even exchanged. Just a shot in the dark – I hope you don’t mind me asking – do you feel that Western medicine has been unfair in its treatment of the Qi Gong treatments before now?

[Old-Liu]

Old Liu,

The purpose of my neo-Spinozan, mytho-poiec, semi-buddhist meanderings on evolution was to demonstrate that the origin of the species through natural selection and random mutation - which you have previously stated as fact - cannot be factual as currently concieved by science.

I’m afraid that that is really a misunderstanding of how natural selection works. Random mutation is happening all around you. Next time you are in a group of people, have a good look at them – they are all slightly different. Slight differences are enough, Andy.

A slight change in our environment, say, to a shortage of food over a long period of time, would cause changes – for example, smaller people would be better able to survive on less food. Bigger people might evolve also, but be less populous but more aggressive.

Slightly increased radiation from the sun would weed out people less able to cope with it.

I think maybe you are thinking that evolution means that one day you don’t have eyes, then the next day a random mutation gives you eyes. It simply does not work like that. The evolution of a Chihuahua from a wolf should give you a better idea.

It may design computers though, and also prevent the necessity of organ transplantation

Yeah, it might – it might give you a unique perspective, which, combined WITH scientific knowledge, i.e. how to build computers, helps you to design that computer. I hope you do!

[Andrew R]

I'm not sure that you can truthfully say that many diseases which Western medicine is unable to cure are being easily cured by qi gong. A LOT of research would need to go in to that before it could be said to be proved. I've no doubt holisitc medicine can have many benefits, but we need to be careful about the claims we make for it.

I'm not assuming or guessing anything when I say this, I'm stating it based on my personal experience and the experiences of other practitioners. I've nearly completely overcome a disease deemed to be incurable by Western Medicine. Many instructors have overcome others and I've met others who've overcome other incurable diseases, such as cancer, diabetes, asthma, depression and other emotional issues. I'm not talking just about physical ailments. But this thread isn't about this.


I am in no way saying Western Medicine is bad, it clearly does amazing things for millions of people. I brought it up to mention the "missing links" aspect of science.

On the other hand, anti-intellectualism also has dangerous trajectories, such as undermining of - thinking, weighing evidence, education, consideration, repsect for learned discipline.

No one here is anti-intellect. We all have brains, and the brain's purpose is to think. I 'think' there's a healthy balance that can be reached between thought and non-thought. I wouldn't get through an average day without my intellect, but I wouldn't be a successful chi kung student if I couldn't let go of it. For me, I find my greatest realizations about the world come to me in non-thought, which, sadly, is rare.

I believe that it is perfectly possible to combine both empty mind/meditation activities with pondering, scientific work, academic work, guided trance shamanic journeys - whatever.

Agreed

Andrew

[Mark Blohm]

Do you feel that Western medicine has been unfair in its treatment of the Qi Gong treatments before now?

Neither yes nor no. I know doctors that practice and benefit from Chi Kung, and there are certainly doctors that dismiss it. I don't care or think about this much at the moment. I am focused positively on the future.


Do you feel that Qi Gong practitioners have been unfair in their treatment of Western medicine treatments until now?


As for random mutations: I adapt to my environment. Why wouldn't my cells? Why wouldn't my DNA? Why wouldn't my mind?


Mark

[AlexBaranosky]

As for random mutations: I adapt to my environment. Why wouldn't my cells? Why wouldn't my DNA? Why wouldn't my mind?

In chi-kung theory mind is not localized to the brain right? So our organs have a form of consciousness, our cells have a form of consciousness, etc, is that true?

[Omar]

I'm pretty sure theres as much consciousness in our toes as in the brain..

Many scientists look for the consciousness in the brain, as it is the body's information center, and with the eyes located near it, the percieved seat of our "self" looking out on the world.

They will not find the counsiousness however, and be able to say surely that this or that area of the brain or this and that energy pattern is the consciousness because:

"The Tao that can be called Tao is not the real Tao".

[Damian Kissey]

Playing God vs Subtle Science

...On the other hand, though, is there any reason why doctors wouldn’t confirm it if it was true? Don’t forget, these people – doctors – are healers, with children under their care, or people they care about, or desperately want to save. They aren’t the enemy – they’re not refusing irrefutable evidence – are they? ...do you feel that Western medicine has been unfair in its treatment of the Qi Gong treatments before now?

Doctors are healers but they can also be "enemy" to your health : Iatrogenesis ( disease or death caused by medical poeple ) is the 3 rd leading cause of death in the USA today ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iatrogenesis

The orthodox medical fraternity refused irrefutable evidence and is partly responsible for putting a brilliant scientist (Dr Hamer ) in jail as recent as 2004 because he scientifically discovered a new conceptual framework and efficacious therapy for cancer ( more then 90 % 5 year survival rate for advanced cancer !) http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/hamer.htm

Western medicine has been unfair to other therapeutic systems : Recognition and/or Noble accolades were given to Roentgen and Fleming ( both non medical doctors) for accidentally discovering Xray and Penicillin ; Many new versions of aspirin-like drugs were publicised and touted as wonder drugs in medical journals ; But when scientific in vitro experiments showed significant evidence that transmitted chi from qigong masters can destroy cancer cells....we mostly see dismissal silence . http://www.flowingzen.com/science.htm

Why all these iatrogenic harm to other human beings ? Why the refusal to see empirical evidence ? Why the unscientific unfairness to non mainstream healing systems ? Why have pioneers ( Galileo , William Harvey , Semmelweiss , Martin Lister , Pasteur , Vesalius , Paracelsus , Wilhelm Reich , Ruth Downing , Dr Bates , Dr Hamer ..) been persecuted then and now and most probably in the future too ?

Because many so called intellectuals and scientists actually do not have mental clarity and hide behind the cloak of material science to remain in their comfortable dogmatic status quo . Ignorance , prejudice , commercial self interest , negative ego , false pride , over intellectualising , loss of contact or lack of awareness or appreciation of the subtle or spiritual dimension of the homo sapien ?

Material science should embrace subtle energies and subtle science because a human being is after all both matter and energy . One cannot think with the knee anymore then an intellectual can gain knowledge of the subtle universe by only using his logic .There is no contradiction between material science and spirituality ( subtle science or mysticism ) .

The scientist-mystic is the acme of human evolution . Similarly the scholar-warrior and the warrior-monk are two Shaolin ideals .

Sifu Wong , the host of this forum , is a talking and walking energy art master and a univeristy graduate in social science who is a also traditional kungfu grandmaster teaching Shaolin Arts partly through his lap top , globetrotting using aeroplanes and still has his feet firmly down to earth while in touch with Paradise .

[Old-Liu]

I'm not assuming or guessing anything when I say this, I'm stating it based on my personal experience and the experiences of other practitioners. I've nearly completely overcome a disease deemed to be incurable by Western Medicine. Many instructors have overcome others and I've met others who've overcome other incurable diseases, such as cancer, diabetes, asthma, depression and other emotional issues. I'm not talking just about physical ailments. But this thread isn't about this.


I am in no way saying Western Medicine is bad, it clearly does amazing things for millions of people. I brought it up to mention the "missing links" aspect of science.



No one here is anti-intellect. We all have brains, and the brain's purpose is to think. I 'think' there's a healthy balance that can be reached between thought and non-thought. I wouldn't get through an average day without my intellect, but I wouldn't be a successful chi kung student if I couldn't let go of it. For me, I find my greatest realizations about the world come to me in non-thought, which, sadly, is rare.



Agreed

Andrew

I'm very open to the possibility that those cures might have happened, but naturally, the question everyone wants to know is does the Western medical science back up that a mircale happened?

People's personal testimony is certainly valid, but as a society we can only build a shared knowledge base through things that we can all testify to, given the chance. A personal testimony is a start point, but not the final proof of course.

[Old-Liu]

Neither yes nor no. I know doctors that practice and benefit from Chi Kung, and there are certainly doctors that dismiss it. I don't care or think about this much at the moment. I am focused positively on the future.


Do you feel that Qi Gong practitioners have been unfair in their treatment of Western medicine treatments until now?


As for random mutations: I adapt to my environment. Why wouldn't my cells? Why wouldn't my DNA? Why wouldn't my mind?


Mark

Well your cells certainly do adapt in a limited sense, or rather your body does. Work hard and you get muscles, or segs... but you won't grow significantly taller.

As for the qi gong question, what interests me is if there was a sense that there was a hostile relationship between western medicine and qi gong - I can understand certain prejudices, but ultimately, Western science would very quickly accept definitive proof on any matter. So the golden question would have to be, why hasn't the main corpus of Western science accepted the truth of qi gong cures?

[Old-Liu]

Doctors are healers but they can also be "enemy" to your health : Iatrogenesis ( disease or death caused by medical poeple ) is the 3 rd leading cause of death in the

USA today ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iatrogenesis

‘Enemy’, to my mind, implies a deliberate hostility, which isn’t there of course – except in the extremely rare cases of murderous medical staff.

Doctors are people who dedicate their lives to saving others. You know, it could be that doctors’ mistakes happen largely because these very dedicated people work so very hard, for long hours, sometimes in intolerable conditions, trying to save lives.

And on that count, you know, Western medical science has saved countless millions of lives – including mine, and my son’s – when those people would have otherwise died. Those really are miracle cures; it’s just that we in the West are eminently fortunate enough to be in a position to not know the reality of life without Western medicine. We might even criticise it, or see shortcomings – but if we lived without it, we would soon understand that science is the true miracle, in my view.

Not to say that there aren’t many valid arguments in favour of considering holistic approaches, and sometimes alternatives.

The orthodox medical fraternity refused irrefutable evidence and is partly responsible for putting a brilliant scientist (Dr Hamer ) in jail as recent as 2004 because he scientifically discovered a new conceptual framework and efficacious therapy for cancer ( more then 90 % 5 year survival rate for advanced cancer !) http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/hamer.htm

It could be that Dr. Hamer developed a cure for cancer that works in 90% of cases, and that that was suppressed in a conspiracy, either deliberate or of ignorance. It could be.

But, it if it is a conspiracy, that conspiracy must therefore involve almost every medical doctor, cancer specialist, biologist, professor of medical science, hospital, doctor’s surgery, nurse, cancer researcher, on our entire planet.

What concerns most deeply there is that there are so many people watching people they love die – children, wives, husbands, beloved family members. Am I to accept that their oncologists (many of whom are touched by cancer themselves or in their family) are either deliberately engaging in a conspiracy to suppress Dr. Hamer’s research, or are too prejudiced or uneducated to understand it?

I think, anyone on earth who had a cure for cancer would easily be able to prove its truth. The fact that it isn’t means that we either see doctors as ‘the enemy’, deliberately conspiring to leave people dying, or as fools with their ‘heads in the cloud’, unable to understand basic scientific research.

Both seem highly unlikely.

Ocham’s razor does rather suggest that it is significantly more likely that Dr Hamer was a well meaning crank, and the ‘proof’ of his method is actually nothing at all even close to proof; is in fact pseudo-scientific nonsense, when investigated by real experts.

Which is exactly what happened. What happen next is the really interesting thing – the experts (the real experts) are attacked as being ignorant or a part of a conspiracy. Seriously, EVERY oncologist on Earth is part of a conspiracy? Or unable to understand the research?

With respect, you have to admit, it seems unlikely.

Western medicine has been unfair to other therapeutic systems : Recognition and/or Noble accolades were given to Roentgen and Fleming ( both non medical doctors) for accidentally discovering Xray and Penicillin ;

Alternative therapies will receive accolades, if they can prove to be true. Science is hostage to its own method in good ways as well as bad – one good way is that proof is proof is proof; if the proof is there, it’s there.

Unfortunately, most of what we’re told is infallible proof is rarely up to scientific standards.

Many new versions of aspirin-like drugs were publicised and touted as wonder drugs in medical journals ; But when scientific in vitro experiments showed significant evidence that transmitted chi from qigong masters can destroy cancer cells....we mostly see dismissal silence . http://www.flowingzen.com/science.htm

I think, to circumvent the entire argument about whether those experiments and results were authentic/valid, etc., let’s assume they were. So, now I’d have to believe that there is a planetary conspiracy amongst scientists, doctors, cancer specialists, medical professors, cancer charities etc., to deliberately suppress or ignore that information. A conspiracy involving millions of people.

It doesn’t really ring true, you have to admit. If it was true, every respectable scientific journal in the world would publish the experiment and results.

It could be that a conspiracy, or scientific ignorance, stops them from publishing it. Or, it could be that the very strict editorial process in which real scientists examine the research simply does not allow it to pass in to publication because the experiment, research or conclusions has too big holes in it - is just isn't up to scratch. Seriously, do you think a cure for cancer would be kept out of medical journals? It doesn't make sense - unless you subscribe to a pan-global conspiracy theory, reminiscent of David Ike.

Then, if it wasn’t, other oncologists would look at the evidence and say hold on, no, this really does work, this experiment is real. And they’d contact the editor – it would get published. If it wasn’t for that conspiracy!

Sadly, fact is, these experiments don’t pass rigorous Western experimental standards. If they did, nothing could suppress it. Clearly, every oncologist in the world could read it on the net and mail it to each other.

Sadly, these is no infallible proof. Not yet.

Why all these iatrogenic harm to other human beings ?

That’s doctors you’re talking about, Damian – people who dedicate their lives to curing others. Accidents happen, and medicine can be dogmatic – but doctors aren’t the evil enemy, they’re really amazing human beings who do a fantastic job. My goodness – we’d miss them if they weren’t there. Most of us wouldn’t be here if they weren’t.

Why the refusal to see empirical evidence ?

At a guess I’d say it was far more likely that the empirical evidence you speak of is highly flawed or not really there, than that a hundred million learned doctors are simply ‘refusing to see it.’

Why the unscientific unfairness to non mainstream healing systems ? Why have pioneers ( Galileo , William Harvey , Semmelweiss , Martin Lister , Pasteur , Vesalius , Paracelsus , Wilhelm Reich , Ruth Downing , Dr Bates , Dr Hamer ..) been persecuted then and now and most probably in the future too ?

Well, for one, Galileo wasn’t persecuted by intellectuals – he WAS an intellectual, persecuted by a spiritual system.

And one man’s pioneer is another man’s con man. Dr. Hamer isn’t a pioneer, he’s a deliberate or accidental con man, sadly. Who says so? All the real cancer treatment experts. You know, we’d have to think they were all conspiring, or ignorant, to believe otherwise, and I just think that is a stretch too far.

Because many so called intellectuals and scientists actually do not have mental clarity and hide behind the cloak of material science to remain in their comfortable dogmatic status quo . Ignorance , prejudice , commercial self interest , negative ego , false pride , over intellectualising , loss of contact or lack of awareness or appreciation of the subtle or spiritual dimension of the homo sapien ?

There certainly are many valid criticisms of institutional structures, but your argument here really just boils down to ‘what do oncologists know about cancer treatment? They have their heads in the clouds, stuck up in their own egos, with no spirituality!’

Well, oncologist know all that we know so far about cancer treatment, and far from, having heads in the cloud, they deal with dying children on a daily basis, and save millions of lives. Personally, I have a lot of respect for them.

Material science should embrace subtle energies and subtle science because a human being is after all both matter and energy . One cannot think with the knee anymore then an intellectual can gain knowledge of the subtle universe by only using his logic .There is no contradiction between material science and spirituality ( subtle science or mysticism ) .

People’s spirituality certainly can be a powerful force to help them heal. But I think if science is going to embrace spirituality, then it might be fair if spirituality embraces science – such as real testing of qi gong masters, set up and arranged by real Western scientists in real oncological research labs.

The scientist-mystic is the acme of human evolution . Similarly the scholar-warrior and the warrior-monk are two Shaolin ideals .

Sifu Wong , the host of this forum , is a talking and walking energy art master and a univeristy graduate in social science who is a also traditional kungfu grandmaster teaching Shaolin Arts partly through his lap top , globetrotting using aeroplanes and still has his feet firmly down to earth while in touch with Paradise .

Well as a social scientist I’m sure Sifu Wong recognises the importance of employing real scientific method if we want real scientists to believe the results.

With respect.

[AlexBaranosky]

I find this Doctor Hamer fascinating.

It is far easier to examine the evidence myself than to just ASSUME that he is pseudoscientific.

I am an intelligent, college educated person. I find that coming to my own conclusions is much more valuable than the alternative.

EDIT:

I think, to circumvent the entire argument about whether those experiments and results were authentic/valid, etc., let’s assume they were. So, now I’d have to believe that there is a planetary conspiracy amongst scientists, doctors, cancer specialists, medical professors, cancer charities etc., to deliberately suppress or ignore that information. A conspiracy involving millions of people.

People get stuck in their world views. I see it all the time. It can be hard for people to accept change, or alternative paradigms. It doesn't have to be a conscious conspiracy, and I don't know that Dr. Damian Kissey was suggesting that.

[AlexBaranosky]

So, I have spent some time googling "doctor ryke hamer"...

What I have found is that there isn't enough information to tell if it works or not. The wikipedia page offers some valid criticisms of him as well. Unfortunately none of that means much one way or the other.

I would love to see a link to something that is more substantial.

[Omar]

the question everyone wants to know is does the Western medical science back up that a mircale happened?

Wether western medical science backs up chi kung or its effects, does not really matter. I find chi kung; high level chinese medicine to be far more advanced then western medicine on many areas of treatment, if not all.

For example most would say western medicine to be superior in treating acute open wounds, but those who knows the effectivity of a very high level chi kung or taoist master would disagree! People would classify such cures as miracles.

Offcourse such kind of treatment is much much rarer then the usually very good treatment you can get in most hospitals around the world.

Personally I have great respect for science, having benefited from going to university. But its position as the authority on what is right and wrong, correct or not I find unfitting. One should offcourse not accept anything from words alone, but experience.

Science's views and standards has changed a lot with time, and will continue to do so. Galileo was ridiculed. Charles Darwin was and still is. Einstein too was opposed before hailed as the man with many of the answers. And today his theories construct much of the base in for example cosmology, but gradually this branch of science is evolving beyond and away from his work.

Same with Charles Darwin in biology and his work on evolution of the species. Science and its views changes as new knowlede is "discovered" - observed rather then experienced.

One hundred years ago the cellphone or TV most of us now have in our homes would be miracles on par with walking on water or turning water to wine.

Same with men walking on the moon using by todays standards ancient technology; the processing powers of the main computer in the 1969 Apollo spacecraft is dwarfed by a normal modern household pocket calculator.

A lot of things modern science employs today is still miracles to most people; just look on for example all the amazing things one can do already with nanotechnology.
In twenty years they will be outdated like a old car or computer.

Yet these things are not considered miracles, but results of science (manipulating matter (energy) with our mind).

To use a established "scientiffic" example; Einstein's formula E=mc2 does say, beyond its energy measuring purpose that matter is energy. This complies with the already ancient knowledge of for example great chi kung masters, that they aquired from experience, not just intelectualizing or experimenting how many experienced result A or B or C during meditation.

So when for example a doctor operates on a patient, using his mind to move his hands that are manipulating the operating tools, he or she is in fact manipulating energy with mind! Although on a much grosser level then someone using chi kung, where manipulating energy (or letting it flow!) with mind is essential.

I'm not saying that operating is ineffective. But in many cases, high level chi kung would yield as good or better results. Especially in cases where there is no visible disease, but disease (energy blockage) is still present.

Advanced chi kung even employs only mind and energy, for example the art of marrow cleansing is performed standing still with no scientiffic measurable external body movement.

That does not mean nothing happens

Good medicine cures disease, great medicine prevents it.