Breathing methods and control in Taijiquan

[Jeffrey Segal]

Are breathing structures also off limits for discussion?

Dear Sifu Stier,


Thanks for your post though I must confess that I’m not quite sure which of my questions you have answered. Are you saying that the use of breathing structures and the many different breathing techniques that are employed within the framework of one breathing cycle (as I have talked about them on this thread) are matters you prefer not to discuss or is your brief description of advanced breathing methods in reference to my question concerning the use of Dantian Breathing in Shen Men Tao?

Thanks,

[Sifu Stier]

Si-Hing Segal:

Yes, Shen Men Tao does incorporate advanced level breathing techniques such as the Embryonic Breath (Tai-Hsi), the Original or Primordial Breath (Yuan-Chi), the Yin Elixir Retained A Hundred Times (Yin Tan Pai Yu), and others (Chi-Tong) which combine, store and move Pre-Natal Chi and Post-Natal Chi through the Cinnabar Field (Tan-Tien). All of these employ various methods of 'Ingesting Energy' or 'Eating Air' (Yan-Hsia-Chi), essentially rinsing and swallowing, such as the Cloud Practice (Yun-Hsing) and Rain Granting (Yu-Shih), and are often used in different Tao-Yin Exercise like Beating the Heavenly Drum (Ming-Tien-Ku). Of course, these methods may employ multiple breath techniques such as retaining, rinsing and swallowing in a single respiration cycle of inhalation and exhalation. As mentioned earlier, I am not at liberty to elaborate on these methods in great detail here. However, when you can hold your breath for one hundred counts of your resting heart rate without straining, you will know most of the secrets!

[Andrew]

However, when you can hold your breath for one hundred counts of your resting heart rate without straining, you will know most of the secrets!

Sifu Stier, I found your last post quite interesting although I thought it was a shame that you did not go into more detail of the breathing techniques you name.

The last comment, however, quoted above doesn't make sense to me. The average resting pulse for an adult male is 60-70 beats per minute, for a female it is a bit higher. So holding one's breath without straining for about 90 seconds would suffice to know all the secrets? Could you elaborate please.

Andrew

[Sifu Stier]

A Good Start!

Dear Andrew:

I said most, not all, of the secrets, but that's OK! If you can relax your mind and body sufficiently to 'center' yourself at your normally lowest, resting heart and respiration rate, and then take a full abdominal breath compressed at Tan-Tien, and hold it for a count of 100 heart beats without any strain, without any trembling or shaking of any part of your body, without any increase in the starting heart rate, you will have completed the initial stage. This sounds easier to do than it usually proves to be for most people, so don't rush or force the process. If strain in holding the breath is initially felt at the count of 25 for example, then continue the practice with 3-9 repetitions once each day at that count until it can be done easily and without any strain. Then gradually increase the count in increments of 5, repeating the above process until you reach a count of 100 for each of the 3-9 repetitions without any strain. It is better to err on the side of caution in this technique, so a slow and careful progress is best, as if moving through the thick and dense undergrowth of a vast forest in complete darkness on the night of a new moon without any artificial light source!

[Jeffrey Segal]

using different breathing structures for the same sequence of Taijiquan patterns a)

Hello again, Sifu Stier,

Your posts provide me with much food for thought and, later on in this thread I’m going to address some of the fascinating points you have raised in posts#56, 60 and 62. From my perspective, however, there seems to be a subtle but significant lack of communication between us. Whether this is due to my questions being unclear, your answers being evasive or just the fact that we are on totally different wavelengths will have to be left for others to decide. I am still interested in your comments on breathing structures as I have been talking about them in this thread as well as the various breathing techniques that make up those structures. Please refer to posts# 19, 23 and 53 as well as the posts that follow.


I’d like to continue now with the discussion of breathing structures from where I was in post#53. In that post I showed how different Taijiquan techniques sometimes employ the same breathing structure if it is appropriate. Now I’d like to offer an example where we can employ the same sequence of Taijiquan techniques using different breathing structures depending on the situation.

Here is the sequence of patterns that I’ll be using for my example:

1) Green Dragon Shoots Pearl (Brush Knee Step)
2) White Snake Shoots Venom
3) Cross Hands-Thrust Kick

Lets first of all suppose that my opponent attacks me with a right thrust punch. As the punch approaches I shift my body backward without moving my legs and, simultaneously brushing off his punch with my left hand, strike his chest with my right palm. (Green Dragon)

My opponent, warding off my palm strike with his left hand, counter-attacks with another thrust punch. Brushing aside his right punch with my left hand, I instantaneously attack his throat with the fingertips of my right hand (White Snake Shoots Venom)

Now, well trained as he is, my opponent shifts his head to dodge my white snake (perhaps deflecting my snake with his left hand) and strikes my head with a right palm chop. Moving diagonally forward to my right side, I deflect his right palm chop with my left hand, and kick his Dantian with my left thrust kick. (Cross Hands-Thrust Kick)

In this short attacking sequence, I use three patterns that constitute three consecutive strikes. While doing this I don’t neglect my defense, indeed my defense is incorporated in my attack and there is no need to use separate defensive patterns before I counter attack.


To someone unfamiliar with Taijiquan as a martial art, this may seem hard to understand. The tactic of incorporating defense within consecutive attacks is quite widely used in genuine traditional Taijiquan. In Chinese it is known as “lian xiao dai da” and in English we call it Defense cum Attack. Perhaps this will make a good subject for another thread for one of my Wahnam brothers or sisters.

A suitable breathing structure to accompany these three consecutive strikes for this combat situation would be “in-out-in-out-out-swallow” All three strikes are executed in one breath. The Chinese saying for this tactical approach, which is very important both in solo set performance as well as in sparring, is “yi qi ke cheng” meaning “accomplished in one breath”

In my next post, I’ll take the same three patterns in a different combat situation using a different breathing structure.

[Jeffrey Segal]

using different breathing structures for the same sequence of Taijiquan patterns b)

Let us now examine a different combat situation using the same three patterns.


1) Green Dragon Shoots Pearl (Brush Knee Step)
2) White Snake Shoots Venom
3) Cross Hands-Thrust Kick


This time, my opponent attacks me using a side kick. Without moving my feet, I slant my body backward, avoiding his kick and as soon as it is spent, but before he pulls his leg back, I brush it aside and instantaneously strike his chest, ribs back or whichever part of his body is exposed with my right palm. (Green Dragon)

A well-trained opponent may pull back he leg or jump back, warding off or dodging my palm strike. As soon as he makes his defensive move, I close in and, brushing aside his defensive hand if necessary, simultaneously strike his throat. (White Snake Shoots Venom)

Irrespective of whether my opponent defends against my second strike and almost irrespective of his defense, I swiftly move diagonally forward and kick his Dantian with my left thrust kick. (Cross Hands-Thrust Kick)

For this combat situation, a good breathing structure, using the same three consecutive strikes as in the previous post, would be “follow-(follow)-explode-swallow” Again the three strikes are performed in one breath but this one breath is much shorter than the breath in the first example. I have placed the second “follow” in brackets because there aren’t two separate “follows”. Rather, one “follows” the breath continuously while performing Green Dragon and White Snake.

Modifications and variations notwithstanding, if you can understand the underlying principle involved in executing three strikes, you can understand how one can execute ten consecutive strikes (as Wuji asked earlier on in this thread). Through systematic training it becomes natural to use the correct breathing technique or structure as required. I’m looking forward to discussing this process as our thread on breathing and control in Taijiquan progresses.

Those students who have learnt Shaolinquan and/or Taijiquan from Sifu will recognise that there are many different tactics to be found in my descriptions of such seemingly simple combat sequences.

Best regards,

[Andrew]

Jeffrey ..... great stuff! Looking forward to more.

Andrew

[Sifu Stier]

Faster than Thought!

Mr. Segal:

I've been wondering as I read your posts if you have had any 'real' fighting experience such as Lei-Tai full contact kickboxing in the ring or as a combat soldier in military service, or even serious street fighting experience? I ask this because the all too obvious experience of those who have had such experience is that REAL FIGHTING HAPPENS FASTER THAN THOUGHT! The action/interaction circumstances of real fighting situations don't normally allow one the luxury of sufficient time to plan strategy or form a 'game plan' before engaging the enemy, or enough time to identify an opponents attacking movements or techniques and select an appropriate defensive response and their accompanying breathing patterns.

And so, as interesting as your intellectual exercises in hypothetical fighting scenarios are, they nevertheless represent an ideal situation in which theoretical possibilities always play out perfectly as expected and planned. What do you do as part of your normal training regimine to insure that your techniques and especially your breathing synchronization would realistically occur as projected in your hypothetical scenarios even if you knew in advance that you were going to be forced into an unavoidable fight, e.g. the combat soldier, or a pre-planned, voluntarily chosen full-contact fight in the ring, but especially in the event of an ambush fight in which you are attacked with tremendous sudden speed and forcefulness at arm's length distance from a hidden position? These are all potential scenarios in which the 'real' fighting will happen faster than you can think. Please answer from your own direct, personal experience in these types of fighting situations. Thank you!

[Andrew]

Sifu Stier,

From what you have written you imply that all breathing patterns and structures are thrown to the wind in a "real fighting situation". Is this your personal experience? If so, are stances and techniques also discarded in such a situation?

Assuming the answer to either of these questions is yes, then one would have to question the value and validity of training breathing methods in Taijiquan (or any form of Kung Fu) .... or even question the value of training any form of Martial Art in the first place.

If the answer to both of my questions is no, then I would have to ask you to explain what you meant with your previous post.

I am also still anxiously waiting to hear about breathing methods and control you employ in your Taijiquan training. Your general descriptions of breathing methods previously posted are most interesting but I would still like to see something specifically relevant to the main theme of this thread.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Sifu Stier]

Not even close!

Andrew:

You are not even close to understanding what I said. I did not suggest throwing anything to the wind, but asked for specifics regarding how the examples given could and would be realized.

[Jeffrey Segal]

Dear Sifu Stier,

Your comments surprise me. I wonder whether you have spent much time browsing Sifu Wong’s website. I also wonder if you are aware that one of the main reasons that Sifu decided to teach Taijiquan was his dismay as he observed that not only are there increasingly few people who can use their Taijiquan forms for fighting but there are less and less people who even believe that Taijiquan is an effective combat art.

I think that we need to be clear on something.

We at Shaolin Wahnam sincerely believe that Kungfu (including Taijiquan) is an effective internal martial art and that Taijiquan forms can be used for real fighting. This belief and my comments on using Kungfu (including Taijiquan) in real fighting are based on the experiences of Sigung Ho, Sigung Lai, Sifu Wong and many of his students. While I do have personal experience in free sparring using Taijiquan I do not claim to have personal experience in real fighting. (Please refer to my next post for more on this)

Have you, Sifu Stier have you ever used your Taijiquan forms effectively for real fighting or free sparring?

If you prefer not to answer this question, I hope you will answer the following one.

Do you, Sifu Stier, honestly believe that Taijiquan can be effectively used for fighting?

I ask these questions based on the premise that Taijiquan is an internal martial art, which means it can be effectively used for fighting.

To quote Sifu,

Using Taijiquan effectively for combat necessarily means:

1.. An effective Taijiquan exponent plans tactics and strategies before engaging the enemy.
2.. He has sufficient time to identify an opponent's attacking movements or techniques, and to select appropriate responses (including but not limiting to defensive responses) including their accompanying breathing structures.

It is true that not many Taijiquan practitioners may be lucky enough to progress to the levels of tactics and strategies, but using Taijiquan techniques for effective combat is basic to Taijiquan training as an internal martial art. To use Taijiquan techniques effectively for combat requires you to clearly identify your opponent's attacks and respond accordingly. Otherwise you will be fighting like children.

Originially posted by Sifu Stier
FIGHTING HAPPENS FASTER THAN THOUGHT!

Technically speaking, this statement is not true. Thought (or mind) is faster than qi (energy), and qi is faster than physical movements, including physical movements in real fights.

Perhaps what you meant to say is that in real fighting there is no time to think.

Again, quoting Sifu,

Sparring and real fighting are not the place for an effective combatant to think of what techniques, tactics and strategies to use. This is a big mistake many people make. Hence they fight or spar haphazardly.

An effective combatant just applies the appropriate techniques (including their accompanying breathing structures), tactics and strategies spontaneously and correctly. How could the techniques, tactics and strategies be correct if he does not think during fighting. This is where systematic combat training comes in. Some of the thinking is done during combat training, and most of the thinking was done by past masters who passed down the legacy to us.

The techniques that I have talked about are meant to be an introduction to breathing structures and it is only through systematic training (please read Anthony’s superb article on Sparring methodology @ http://shaolin.org/discussion/sparring.html ) that it is possible to apply them in sparring and fighting.

Taking an example from the techniques I have described during this thread, by practicing responding to a punch or kick using “Green Dragon Shoots Pearl” hundreds of times in training, I am able to apply this technique in free sparring. The reason I practice this particular response is that the form itself comes from the real fighting experiences of Taijiquan masters through the ages.

Originally posted by Sifu Stier
And so, as interesting as your intellectual exercises in hypothetical fighting scenarios are, they nevertheless represent an ideal situation in which theoretical possibilities always play out perfectly as expected and planned.

What I have said and what my Shaolin Wahnam brothers and sisters have said in this forum comes from direct experience. The breathing structures we use in Shaolin Wahnam, for example, are not merely "theoretical possibilities", but are taken from direct experience from solo practice, combat training as well as from real fighting.

The techniques that I am presenting here are not advanced. They are basic in our Shaolin Kungfu and Wahnam Taijiquan training. Those who attend either the Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Course or the Intensive Taijiquan Course given by Sifu are taught these skills and techniques. Perhaps Sifu doesn’t usually analyse the breathing structures to course participants as I have done here. This is because it is part of Sifu’s methodology to allow students to experience them first and explain the underlying philosophy after they have direct experience.

[Jeffrey Segal]

Dear Sifu Stier,

Before I continue responding to your recent posts, I’d like to remind you of something you said earlier on in this thread.

Lastly, I am here only to give my assests away. If anyone finds value or benefit in my posts, they are welcome to take my offerings and use them as they see fit to. If nobody finds value in my posts, I don't care. If nobody agrees with me, it's OK! I already have my accomplishments, and maintain same solely through my own practice. I have no wish or need to argue or compete with anyone

It’s fine for you to question whether my words come from personal experience or not. It’s also fine for you to refrain from really talking about breathing techniques as they are used in Shen Men Tao (to me, giving a generic list of breathing methods is not the same thing as discussing them). As you have so succinctly said, we all hold the ethical and moral responsibility for what we choose to post on this forum. As the sole representative of Shen Men Tao and considering that you refuse to post any photos or footage of you or your students in action along with the that fact that I can find no mention of you, your school or your students anywhere on the internet other than in your own posts here and on a couple of other forums, all we have are your words.

I have never claimed to have experience as a combat soldier, street fighter or full-contact kick boxer. I claim to be nothing more than a dedicated practitioner and an instructor for the Shaolin Wahnam Institute. On the other hand, there is nothing that I have described on this forum as personal experience that I have not personally experienced. Many of our forum members have met me. There are numerous photos of me here and on Sifu Wong’s website (where this forum is hosted) and it has been my privilege to spar with many of my Wahnam brothers and sisters over the years that I have been training Taijiquan and Shaolinquan.

I am lucky enough to be able to say that I have not been involved in life or death fighting situations so I honestly cannot say from personal experience whether the techniques and tactics that I describe here work in such situations. I do, however believe absolutely that this is the case. Why?

Sifu told me that practicing genuine Qigong would give me radiant health, joyful vitality, a zest for life and spiritual joy. My life is wonderful, I feel connected to the cosmos, my health is indeed radiant and my spiritual progress was confirmed recently when I visited Master Yap (a truly magnificent Qigong Master) in Penang last December.

Sifu told me that by doing my stance training regularly and correctly I would develop internal force. While my internal force is nothing (I repeat nothing) in comparison with some of my seniors like Kai, Chun Nga and Mogan, it is sufficient that my Shaolinquan brothers notice it when they spar with me.

Sifu told me that by training Dantian Breathing as he taught it, I would be able to tap cosmic energy and store it at my Dantian or radiate it throughout (and beyond) my body. I can do this easily.

Sifu told me that I would be able to open people’s energy points and smooth their energy blockages and if needed, transmit some qi to help the process. Although I am still quite new to this and my skills are in a stage of infancy, I can readily accomplish these things.

This list is my no means exhaustive and I am not trying to brag. My purpose here is to say that I have every reason, based on my personal experiences, to believe my Sifu. I have not been involved in real fighting but my beloved Sifu and two of my beloved Sigungs, Sigung Ho and Sigung Lai as well as my Sihings like Kai and Anthony (both of whom I have been lucky enough to train with and learn from) most certainly have. Some of my Wahnam brothers in England like Ronan also have (probably more extensive than they would have preferred) real fighting experience. This forum and the Sifu’s website are replete with accounts of their exploits.

Here is an extract from Sifu’s Q-A Series -- November 2004 Part 2

Question 2
At the course, Sifu said that to a master, qi could be channeled instantly to any part of the body, for example to block a kick. When I enter a qigong state of mind, I can send qi to my hand or leg or anywhere else, but my qi still responds quite slowly. When one is in a life-and-death battle and probably not in the most meditative state of mind, can that person still use his mind to direct qi instantaneously?


Answer 2
Yes, a skilful person like a kungfu master can effectively use his mind to direct qi instantaneously in combat. And the master is combat is usually in a meditative or qigong state of mind. Here I speak from direct experiences - my sifus', my own as well as my disciples' experiences.

I would not call mine life-death combats, but in my younger days I was caught in numerous fights, including attacks by many people at the same time. It was this skill of directing qi instantaneously, as well as my good stances and footwork, that enabled me to come out of the fights safe and sound.

My sifu, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, was once attacked by more than 30 people armed with deadly weapons like axes and spears out to kill him. When a dozen axes and spears rained on you at the same time, using muscular movements would not be fast enough to get you out alive. My sifu was not only so skilful but also so compassionate that he caused just enough injury to the leader to scare away the attackers, without killing or seriously wounding them.

Not too long ago, Kai, my senior disciple, was attacked by seven people using weapons, including one with a gun. Within five seconds, all seven were on the ground, four with broken bones. True to our Shaolin teaching, Kai was compassionate, he just broke their bones. In such a situation, breaking their bones was the minimum needed to stop armed attackers killing you.

These were true cases. We at Shaolin Wahnam never glorify fighting, but these cases enable us to speak with conviction when we say kungfu (without resorting to bouncing about and kicking wildly) is effective for combat.

How could a kungfu master be so incredibly fast and powerful? It is the flow of qi. But it is not just the directing of qi to targeted parts of the body, or the instantaneous channeling of qi to block attacks, though generating and directing qi flow are the basic skills. When half a dozen attackers come at you at the same time, you have no time to examine their attacks and think of suitable counters.

Then how would a master counter? He doesn't think! All the thinking as well as appropriate counters have been "programmed" into him in his prior training. He just moves spontaneously, directed by his qi flow. In the combat itself, he is usually not consciously aware of his exact movements, but his movements directed by qi flow in a meditative state of mind are always correct!

[Sifu Stier]

Mr. Segal:

You are correct in assuming that the saying "Real fighting happens faster than one can think" means that there is no time to think, no time to choose "specific patterns to counter particular combat situations". Most often, especially in ambush type situations, there is no time to plan tactics and strategies before engaging the enemy, and no time to identify an opponents attacking movements or techniques, and select appropriate responses and breathing structures, just as Master Wong has correctly stated, although conflicting quotes from him appear in your same post. That being the case, how do you train to insure that a fast and effective response will be forthcoming should you find yourself forced to really fight? It is a simple question which your direct experience should be able to easily answer!

I most definitely believe that Tai-Chi Chuan is an Internal, Soft Style Kung-Fu which can be applied with awesome effectiveness when properly developed through authentic, traditional training methods. During the course of my professional teaching career, I have been directly challenged in the school and at tournaments, or have been ambushed by those lacking the confidence to directly challenge me, somewhere in the neighborhood of probably 120 times. Many of those who made direct challenges were dissuaded from actually fighting, but all of those who ambushed were quickly and decisively vanquished with varying degrees of injury, generally as little as possible in each situation, and the vast majority of these individuals became long time students as a result of their experience.

Insofar as Shen Men Tao is concerned, it was always my Master's wish that the System be transmitted only through long term, direct personal instruction via group or private individual classes rather than through books, video tapes, weekend workshops, websites, and so forth. This is a very common attitude among traditional style Chinese Masters in the past, and one which is still quite common even today in many systems. Only since I was named as Lineage Successor some years ago, has any information regarding this System been publicly disseminated at my discretion. I in turn have been conservatively cautious and discriminating in regards to when, where, how, and with whom this would occur. As a result, not much is to found anywhere, because that is what all of the Master Grade practitioners of our System unanimously agree to be in the best interest of Shen Men Tao! As an excellent example of this discretion, I am not motivated to give control of photos and video tapes to those who are openly critical and hostile towards me.

It is quite interesting that you and your associates demand proof of this and that, and insist on answers to loaded questions from me and others, yet always ignore direct questions posed to you, change the subject, or dismiss legitimate questions by claiming them to be 'off topic'. What a hoot! LOL! I can only conclude that in spite of all the feigned bravado, you are not able to answer these questions from 'direct experience'. It's OK. I already know the answers anyway from my own experience!

[Jeffrey Segal]

Greetings Everybody,

I’m sorry for the following diversion. I do have more information about breathing and control in Taijiquan, which I hope you will find interesting. Has anybody been trying the sequence I outlined earlier (Dragon-Snake-Kick) using the 2 different breathing structures I gave? Well worth investigating

Dear Sifu Stier,

Thank you for your post. Quite obviously you are entitled to your opinions and it is your privilege to draw whatever conclusions you see fit from your amazingly prolific involvement as a guest here. It is equally obvious that conclusions will be drawn about you and Shen Men Tao based uniquely on your posts (since we have nothing else to go by).

If you find there to be a contradiction between the 2 quotes from Sifu's teaching that I offered in post#71 you may wish to consider them from a non-dualistic point of view. Having sufficient time to react and reacting spontaneously and correctly (and instantly in the case of a surprise attack) need not be mutually exclusive. I admit that this concept may not be easy to understand but anyone who has without thinking given the correct response during sparring will know what I mean.

I truly believe that there is ample information on this forum and on Sifu’s website describing how we train and the way in which, using systematic training, it is possible to spar and fight using genuine Taijiquan and Shaolinquan forms. In fact, part of the way we do it is by employing breathing structures like those I have discussed in this thread. Not only that, many of our members are actually following this methodology in their daily training. I believe that I have answered your questions clearly and to the best of my ability. I have been totally honest concerning my personal experiences. Yes, I have used Taijiquan for free sparring and no, I have not used it in a real fight. My belief in its validity in real fighting is based, as I said in my last post, on the experiences of my Sigungs, my Sifu and my Wahnam brothers and sisters. I gave you my reasons for believing my Sifu's words in my last post. You are free not to believe me but in this case I would ask that you refrain from shooting the messenger.

For someone who came here only to offer his assets without wishing to compete or argue, the manner in which you post here is odd, to say the least. I also find your promoting and demoting me backwards and forwards from Jeffrey to Mr Segal to Sihing Segal rather strange.

My aim with this thread was to answer some questions that had been put forward and to provide information about breathing and control in Taijiquan as we practice it in Wahnam Taijiquan. I post here with the blessing, support and encouragement of my Sifu. It was my hope that your presence here would ensure that some mutually beneficial discussion ensued.

I have a question for you.

Would your master be proud of your performance here as a guest on the Shaolin Wahnam forum?

Sincerely,

[Andrew]

Sifu Stier,

Could you please clarify your aims and objectives of participating here (this thread, this forum). You need to define this first --- this will lead you to increased clarity. On the one hand you say you are here to share your assets and on the other hand you avoid doing so, it would seem, at all cost.

In this thread, as an example, your only comments seem to be aimed at refuting pretty much everything that Jeffrey has posted. Your claims that what Jeffrey has so clearly and concisely written are incorrect are not backed up with any form of examples, evidence or alternatives.

Andrew