Choy-Li-Fatt and Kungfu Against Other Styles: 20 Questions for Grandmaster

[Ronny]

This question ans answer series is really great, thank you Sifu and Markus, thank you for starting it and thank you to all the questioner!

[Markus Kahila]

Answer to Choy-Li-Fatt -question 13

Dear family and visitors,


This one includes some great information about the differences and similarities in the philosophies of Hoong Ka (Hung Gar) kungfu and Choy-Li-Fatt (Choy Lee Fut) kungfu.

An illustration of Hoong Ka Grandmaster Lam Sai Weng

Question 13:

As Choy Lee Fatt is a school of kung fu well-suited for self defense againt multiple assailants and your Shaolin Wahnam school also has methods used for this purpose in level 11 and 12 of the Shaolin Kung Fu Training Program, which are "Single Unarmed Against Multiple Unarmed" and "Single Unarmed & Armed Against Multiple Armed" respectively, how might the tactics and philosophies of Hoong Ka and Choy Lee Fatt differ comparatively when dealing with multiple opponents? What are the similarities? In one on one combat?

- Sunwukong

Answer to Question 13:


"
There are a lot of similarities between Hoong Ka and Choy-Li-Fatt because they came from the same source, Southern Shaolin. The differences are due to different emphasis the two schools place on techniques. Hoong Ka focuses on straight stances and straight punches, whereas Choy-Li-Fatt on diagonal stances and diagonal strikes.  

In other words, a typical Hoong Ka attack is to move forward in a Bow-Arrow Stance and drive a level fist or a vertical fist into an opponent, as in “Black Tiger Steals Heart”. A typical Choy-Li-Fatt attack is to move diagonally forward and swing an upward fist or a downward fist at an opponent, as in “Throw Ball in Waves” or “Whirlwind Smashes Waves”.  Please note that all these patterns are found in both school.

A colloquial saying sums up the difference in tactics, “hoong ka chet yap, choy li fatt chou chak moon” or “Hoong Ka enters straight-ahead, Choy-Li-Fatt enters from a side”. This is expressed in their different philosophies, “hoong ka kuen fatt kong meng loui lok, choy li fatt seng yu chi chui” or “Honog Ka techniques are clear and direct, Choy-Li-Fatt techniques win with strategies”.

Hence, a manifestation of a Hoong Ka practitioner in kungfu or in life is “If I beat you, it is because I am better than you”, whereas that of a Choy-Li-Fatt practitioner is “If I beat you, it is because I am cleverer than you”. In kungfu stories, a Hoong Ka practitioner would rather die fighting against odds than escaping using tricks, whereas a Choy-Li-Fatt practitioner when faced with odds would choose to escape rather than fight. One represents courage, the other represents wisdom. In Shaolin Wahanm, we value both.


Hoong Ka and Choy-Li-Fatt have different philosophies regarding fighting single-handedly against multiple armed or unarmed attackers. I clearly remember learning these two important philosophies from my siheng (elder kungfu brother), “Iron-Armed” Chiu Shi Khern when I was just a small boy learning kungfu from Uncle Righteousness. A Hoong Ka practitioner would adopt “pui sheng yong jin”, which means fighting courageously with your back against a wall so that others could not attack you from your back. A Choy-Li-Fatt practitioner would adopt “fu lok khuen yeong” which means you fight like a tiger moving about swiftly in a flock of sheepish attackers.
"

- Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

Click here to apply for Shaolin Winter Camp 2012

www.shaolinwintercamp.com

Best wishes,

[wooden shoes]

Thank you Sifu and Markus for the wonderful Q&A serie! I have enjoyed and benefitted from it a lot!

Roeland

[Zach]

Yes, thank you Sifu and Sihing Markus. This is truly fascinating.

I could never tire from these Q & A's!

Best regards,

Zach

[Markus Kahila]

Answer to Kungfu Against Other Styles -question 11

Dear family,


Thank you for all the comments. i agree with you; this thread has bacome a real treasure trove of kungfu gems. Sifu's generosity is really mind-boggling in how openly he shares methods, secrets and stories for everyone interested.

Here's another example - it's one of my favorite Q&A's so far, and answers a lot of questions I've noticed many have been asking recently.


Thank you, Sifu!

Why are big muscles not desirable in kungfu, and for what reason?

Question 11:

With regards to lifting weights to train internal force, as well as just about any other activity, how does chi relate to the muscles? I know that large muscles can take a lot of energy to maintain, and that tense muscles can lock up chi. However, my western mindset tells me that muscles are a necessary part of moving. Is it possible to move without muscles? Does practicing Shaolin Kungfu cause one's body to have the optimal amount of muscle, not too much and not too little? Am I causing myself confusion by combining two different paradigms?

- Sifu Matt Fenton

Answer to Question 11:

"
You have raised a very interesting point regarding internal force and the use of muscles. I believe no one has explained this point before. I have not read anything about it in classics or modern writing.  My answer, therefore, is probably unprecedented. It is based on my experience as well as my understanding of force training philosophy.


When we say, “Don’t use your muscles” we are speaking provisionally. What we mean is that we do not tense our muscles. In the same way, when we say that a person’s energy is blocked, we mean that it is relatively blocked. There is still some energy flowing.

You are right – muscles are necessary for movement. Even when we use internal force, muscles are involved. One cannot move without muscles. But we do not tense our muscles in the way when external martial artists use muscular strength.  


But this does not mean that the muscles are listless. The muscles are also taut, but we do not use the term “tensed” as it may give a wrong connotation. The muscles are taut, without being tensed, because they are charged with flowing energy.  

Herein lies the big difference. When one tenses his muscles, they become taut because energy is locked up in the muscles. Moving the muscular mass with speed provides muscular strength.  

When we use internal force, we relax our muscles and let energy flow through them. The muscles also become taut, not because of tension but because they are charged with energy. The flowing energy provides internal force.


The concept may become clearer if we use an analogy. An empty water hose is listless. It becomes taut when we fill it with pieces of solid ice. This corresponds to muscular strength.

The water hose can also become taut when we fill it with flowing water. This corresponds to internal force.


The solid ice in the water hose is “dead”.  Its use is limited to making the water hose taut to produce mechanical strength. After some time it becomes stale.

The flowing water in the water hose is “alive”. Its use is holistic. Besides making the water hose taut to produce internal force, it can also be used for many other purposes wherever it flows to. It is always fresh and constantly re-charged.


Yes, practicing Shaolin Kungfu or Taijiquan can result in the optimal amount of muscles. You are not causing confusion. In fact your questions open a new vantage point concerning muscles, mechanical strength, energy flow and internal force. It is questions like yours that enable us to understand our arts more deeply, helping us to obtain better result in less time.
"

- Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

Click here to apply for Shaolin Winter Camp 2012

www.shaolinwintercamp.com

Best wishes,

[Anthony S]

I'm very happy for everyone that is going to Oslo to learn via Sifu's high level teaching and for the fun you'll have with everyone else there.

[Markus Kahila]

Announcement!

.

A few days ago, I promised you an exciting announcement...so hold on to your horses...

Click here

Best wishes,

[Markus Kahila]

Answer to Kungfu Against Other Styles -question 12

Scenery of the majestic Wudang mountain

Question 12:

Sifu, When Buddhism and Kung Fu mingled it was the same in essence as the traveling yogis of India and Himalaya. And living conditions linked the student and teacher to a very close connection so that direct transmission and teaching was guiding the student every step of the way.

Today modern society and life style makes a different challenge for living in such persistent practice. The Shaolin Temple seems to have changed for tourist interests, though Wudang Mountain appears to maintain their roots.  (But I don’t really know anything about Shaolin or Wudang, I just look this up on internet and make my own assumptions.)  During the Cultural Revolution many masters fled to Asia and Indonesia.  Are there still teachers and places for students to go to in order to find this kind of close training?

- Spencermk

Answer to Question 12:


"
I don’t know of any place today where students and teachers stay together for life like in the Shaolin Temple or on Wudang Mountain in the past to practice kungfu and spiritual cultivation. This does not mean there are no such places today, but I do not know of such places and I don’t think there are.

The closest I knew of was Dr Yang Jwing Ming’s noble project of getting dedicated students to stay with him in a retreat for 10 years to practice and revive the greatness of kungfu. I did not follow this project and therefore do not know of its progress.


Years ago I was offered a place on a scenic mountain as well as fund to build something like the Shaolin Temple to teach chi kung and Shaolin Kungfu. (This was even before I taught Taijiquan publicly, so the question of teaching Taijiquan in this retreat centre did not arise.) I declined this kind offer because I was not ready to dedicate myself to this secluded task. I preferred, and still prefer, travelling around the world teaching deserving students besides enjoying delicious food and seeing beautiful places with my dedicated students.


Later, Sifu Rama Roberto built a retreat centre on the Blue Mountain in Costa Rica. At first he wanted to call it the Shaolin Temple, but after discussion with me, he decided to call it Shaolin Wahnam Centre instead because he didn’t intend to have any real monks there.  

Although the Shaolin Wahnam Centre on the Blue Mountain is founded to preserve genuine chi kung, Shaolin Kungfu and Taijiquan, it is different from the Shaolin Temple and the Wudang Temple in the past. Besides not having monks, which would be a basic requirement for a temple, a crucial difference is that students and teachers do not stay together for life or for a long time at the Shaolin Wahnam Centre on the Blue Mountain. Although courses are conducted there throughout the year, different students attend different courses at different times for different objectices.


My son, Sifu Wong Chun Nga, also thought of setting up a Shaolin Wahnam Centre in Malaysia. I was not in favour of the idea for economic considerations. It would be too costly to upkeep. Although many students come to Malaysia yearly for my intensive and special courses, it would be more comfortable for them and much cheaper for me to conduct the courses in luxurious hotels, even when the money for the hotel accommodation were paid to maintain the centre.


Besides economic considerations, more important is the difference in aims and objectives between practitioners at the Shaolin Temple and Wudang Temple in the past and Shaolin Wahnam practitioners today.

Practitioners at the Shaolin and Wudang temples were monks. They had renounced all worldly affairs to live a temple life and practice the Shaolin or Wudang arts to attain Enlightenment.

Shaolin Wahnam practitioners do not want to be monks. They practice the arts taught in Shaolin Wahnam to make their own lives as well as the lives of other people more rewarding and meaningful here and now, including enjoying delicious food, enjoying wholesome sex and happy times with their friends and family members – legitimate worldly pleasures not permitted to monks.
"

- Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

Best wishes,

[Markus Kahila]

Answer to Kungfu Against Other Styles -question 13

Question 13:

How do we end up being warriors?

I consider my own body/mind the most difficult battlefield and I the most formidable opponent, and to overcome my own weaknesses has been the purpose of my entire life! But, why Sifu? Why or how do I or am of a Warrior’s cast? Why do I take so much pride into standing for what I believe is trustful and honorable? Why do I am willing to spare my life for it?

- Angel

Answer to Question 13:


"
Different people will answer the same questions differently, and my answers are as follows.

We can end up being warriors by practicing what warriors do.  

We do not want just to be warriors, we want to be scholar-warriors, not in the literal but in the figurative sense.


In other words we do not want to be professional soldiers, take up arms and go to wars, while being well versed in the scholar arts like philosophy, literature, painting and music. Rather we want to have and put in daily practice typical qualities of top warriors and scholars, like courage, fitness, determination, integrity, morality, mental clarity and intellectual prowess. In practical terms we want to excel in both our business and private lives.


Obviously, merely wishing to be a scholar-warrior, or reading about how to become one, does not make you into a scholar warrior. You become a scholar-warrior by doing what a typical scholar-warrior does. And to do that well, you need the qualities of top scholar-warriors.


An excellent way to accomplish this is to practice the philosophy and arts you have learnt in Shaolin Wahnam. Why? Simply because the philosophy and arts in Shaolin Wahnam are meant to train students to become scholar-warriors.

In principle, it is the same as if you want to become a lawyer you practice what you learn in a good law school; or if you want to be a deep-sea diver you practice what you learn in a good deep-sea diving school, because these schools train you to be a lawyer or a deep-sea diver.


Saying that he himself is his own most formidable opponent has become a cliché often with the person not really knowing what he means.  

In many situations this saying is helpful. Amongst other benefits, it reminds the person not to give up easily, or to be vain when defeating other opponents.  

But when we examine the saying with some mental clarity, it is often not true for many people. For many students in Shaolin Wahnam, for example, the saying is not true.  


It is now actually harder for many students to defeat other martial artists in free sparring competitions than to practice free sparring the way I have been telling them to, including with an element of threat and undergoing the 30-Opponent programme. The interesting point is that if they put into practice my advice, not merely listening to it, they will eventually find it easy to defeat other martial artists in free sparring competitions.

For you too, though the above advice is not meant for you because you have taken part in and have won many free sparring competitions, your own body/mind is not your most difficult battlefield and you yourself are not the most formidable opponent. In my opinion, your body/mind is your easiest battlefield and you yourself are the easier opponent simply because you have full control over your body/mind and over yourself.


Still, why do you believe in this saying? As I have mentioned earlier, different people may give different answers. My answer is that you have been conditioned to this cliché. Now you can look at it in a new light.

While you should overcome your own weaknesses, it should not be the purpose of your entire life. There are many other more meaningful and also more pleasant things to do, like using Wahnam Taijiquan to win international free sparring competitions and helping people with so-called incurable diseases to regain good health – noble aims which I believe you have dedicated yourself to.
"

- Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

Best wishes,

[LeeWeiJoo]

A very insightful and inspiring answer

Thank you, Sifu, for your wisdom and guidance.

Thank you, Markus Siheng, for your work and effort on this thread.

Thank you, Angel, for posting this question.

With Shaolin Salute,
Lee Wei Joo

[brendan]

Dear Family,

This thread is really wonderful to read. Thank you Sifu for taking the time to answer all these questions so wisely. Thank you Markus Siheng and all who has asked questions.

Shaolin Salute,
Brendan

[Markus Kahila]

Answer to Kungfu Against Other Styles -question 14

Dear family and visitors,


Here is the final installment of Sifu's answers.

It is especially valuable for those are interested in our schools aim of winning sparring competitions.

Question 14:

Sifu, I understand Wahnam students did enter sparring competitions in the past in Malaysia, and were very successful. Can you tell us about the conditions and outcome of the early competitions we entered?

- Sifu Markus Kahila

Answer to Question 14:


"
Yes, when I taught at the Shaolin Wahnam Association in Sungai Petani, Malaysia in the 1980s. We did enter free sparring competitions and were very successful.


I particularly remember an occasion, though I cannot remember the year the competition was held, where we won all the final places in both the Under-30 and the Veteran divisions.

It was the Kedah Open All-Style Free Sparring Full-Contact Competition. There were two divisions, Under-30 (if I remember correctly) and Veteran. To us this classification was an irony because all our best fighters were above 30, which would put then in the Veteran division, specially created because the organizers thought that those over 30 would not be as good fighters as those younger.

Hong Kok Beng won the Under-30 division, while Teoh Cheng Keat was the runners-up. You might have met Teoh Cheng Keat at one of the wedding dinners. He was a former Muay Thai instructor before he learned from me. Now he is a successful businessman driving a Mercedes.


In the Veteran division, Cheng Shang Shou was the champion, while Lim Swee Beng (if I remember his name correctly) was the runners-up. All the champions and runners-up were from Shaolin Wahnam.


I did not mention this achievement because we did not pay much importance to winning competitions. In fact I almost had forgotten about it until you brought it up. Actually we did not specially train for the competition. Persuaded by the organizers to take part, we just sent four competitors and all of them became champions and runners-up in their respective divisions.


Another reason why I did not mention it was because I was not really proud of the achievement as the number of participants was not as large as what the organizers made it out to be, though on the night of the finals the hall was fully packed with spectators. When I asked the organizers why there weren’t a lot of participants taking part in an all-style open competition, he told me, probably jokingly though it was flattering, that many did not take part when they knew we were competing!

Irrespective of whether it was a flattering joke, it was inspiring. We would like to repeat this feat where all the finalists are Shaolin Wahnam competitors. With strategic planning and systematic training now, this feat is certainly easier realized than before when we just sent in our competitors randomly.
"

- Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

Best wishes,

[Fabienne]

Dear Sigung, dear Markus Sisook

Thank you for this very, very delightful and generous thread!
Many of these posts inspire me to double my efforts in the very near future of, one day, becoming a winning tournament-participant (after getting over the hectic time at school !).

These posts are all truly amazing and I will come back here very often in order to be inspired all over again .

Big smile from the heart
Fabienne

[brendan]

Thank you Sifu very inspiring.

Thank you Markus.

Shaolin Salute,
Brendan

[David Langford]

Dear Sigung, dear Markus Sisook

Thank you for this very, very delightful and generous thread!
Many of these posts inspire me to double my efforts now of, one day, becoming a winning tournament-participant (after getting over the hectic time at school !).

These posts are all truly amazing and I will come back here very often in order to be inspired all over again .

Big smile from the heart
Fabienne

Fixed and seconded.