That was Zen, this is Tao!

[Andrew]

Nice post Mike. I too look forward to reading more from all of the well-informed and knowledgeable posters here.

Andrew

[Mike B]

Well you might wish to edit your post as when I posted mine I saw yours posted a millisecond before and made some changes not least of which some blatant and totally gratuitous disrespect towards all concerned

Anyway when you edit your to include the word 'not' it will totally confuse readers of this one

I'll pay for it I know (probably when I next post a qigong q with half a dozen mutually incompatible answers and you guys post 'all right').

Anyway now we rapidly have swapped the "Bar Room Brawl" for a "Bar Room Tidy" (this I am afraid will only make sense to Red Dwarf viewers...) can we kindly ask for more interesting thoughts on Taoism

Now what was that story about the painting competition won by the Taoists whose interpretation of wu-wei on that occasion was to sit round and get drunk...?

Mike

[Sifu Stier]

I don't recall any statement being made here that Ch'an or Zen developed from Taoism per se, but rather that the Taoist philosophical mindset so permeates all of Chinese culture historically, that virtually everything became infused with it to some degree, including the Buddhism imported from India! The addition of certain elements of Taoist philosophical thought in no way lessened the Buddhism, but indeed magnified it, resulting in a uniquely vibrant and adaptable method. This is not to say that the 'modified' method is categorically better or worse than that from which it sprang, but just that it is distinctively different in 'expression' while remaining the same in 'spirit'!

In turn, a considerable exchange of ideas and concepts flowed the other way as well. Religious Taoism happily embraced the vast pantheon of gods, and other elements of Buddhist thought and perspective, adding these to the older 'tribal' superstitions and magical rituals of Mongolian and Tibetan Bon influence, all overlayed and interwoven with Taoist philosophy. Once again, the resulting synthesis is wonderfully and uniquely Chinese!

We see the same process of synthesis transform the major schools of wu-shu/kung-fu as well, with a 'taoist' presence evident in the 'buddhist' kung-fu, and elements of 'buddhist' influence evident in the 'taoist' kung-fu. These two great schools of thought, and their respective traditions, did not exist in a vacuum. They existed side by side, mutually benefiting one another. There have undoubtedly been a few examples in both traditions of individuals who maintained a kind of 'segregated purity' by way of an isolated,
eremetical lifestyle alone in the remote regions of the high mountains, or the deep forest, or impenetrable jungle, but they have been the exceptions rather than the norm!

[Mike B]

And light to you to SifuStier!

I would say I agree with every word of your insightful post but don't wish to perpetuate any 'sides-of-the-net-ism' here nor to slur you with my support (nor for that matter to be a complete sycophant )

Interestingly talking of martial arts Sifus and Chinese philosophy I read an article this week by my old Sifu (not that I ever heard him ever called Sifu) Dan Docherty. He was saying that Confucious was something of a failed adviser in his lifetime (and was only 'succesful' posthumously) which was amusingly ironic if accurate.

Merry Posting.

Mike

[barrys]

I am also looking forward to hearing more from people who know more than me about both Zen and Taoism. I think that is why Sifu Stier started this thread in the first place.

I thought that it might be of interest to those who regularly post here to do a bit of comparative analysis between these two spiritual philosophies

Similarities and differences are interesting to me. Seems like the similarities might end up being some approximation to "cosmic reality" and the differences might be different paths to achieving an experience of it.

A couple of things interest me - this forum is very polite and measured, particularly when I compare it with other things I have seen. People are respectful to one another. At the same time it is difficult with plain text to always guage people's intent - which I guess is why emoticons were invented. In the main I find it useful to work on the basis that everyone's intent is positive and generous. For me it helps to take that as a basic position so that when someone's plain text seems a little sharp to me I can fall back on this idea. I may get it wrong sometimes but it errs in the direction of the right kind of mistake for me - particularly as there is no danger to me in getting it wrong in this direction.

These electronic forums are a relatively new form of communication. It is blind compared to face-to-face. It has great benefits as I get to talk to and learn from people like Sifu Stier and Anthony, who I would never get to listen to and exchange ideas with otherwise. However, the whole world is having to learn to make it work and it will take some time, patience and effort to do so.

A teacher, and a simple and spiritual man, I once had told me a story about a peace march he attended in London. He said it was fantastic. Buddhists, Muslims, Christians etc. etc. all marching for the cause of peace. In the evening there was a concert where lots of musicians with a spiritual bent played. One man, an Indian scitar player, took the stage, made a small speech about the difficulty and importance of remaining peaceful when one was truly disturbed by something, and then played some random notes with long gaps between passages. People began to get restless and muttering about the lack of respect he was showing in his playing. After a time people began to whistle and even started to leave. My teacher said he was surprised at how quickly peace turned into the start of an escalation to "un-peace". It also makes me think of that story about the Samuari who went searching for truth and the definition of heaven and hell. He was eventually pointed towards a spiritual teacher. He found this man sitting by the side of the road smiling. He approached him, paid his respects and asked his questions. The man remained with his eyes closed and smiling for some time. Eventually, he opened his eyes and looked at the Samuari. "You dishevelled man. Why do you think I would waste my time on the likes of you. Your clothes are dirty, you smell, your hair is unkempt. You are clearly lacking in intelligence and I would be wasting my breath on you". The Samuari felt rage rising and burning in him. He felt thoroughly ashamed and attacked. He drew his sword, raised it and prepared to strike the man a mortal blow. As he brought the sword down the man said "That is hell". The samauri was stunned and managed to bring the sword to a halt. He thought "This man has risked his life to teach me through experience" and tears began to fill his eyes with gratitude at the man's generosity. The man said "And that is heaven".

I hope we manage to keep a peaceful dialogue going here even if there are mistakes or misunderstandings.

Warmest wishes and respect to you all,

Barry

[Sifu Stier]

Salutations!

Gentlemen:

Salutations to All! The quality of all posts here has been outstanding thus far! You are all to be commended for your efforts in behalf of the benefit of us all. Very well done! Thank you everyone for your able participation.

[Antonius]

Boy. I got to school for the day, and look what happens...

J. Needham would be a good example

I'm not familiar with his work. I am, however, familiar with Prof. Robert Thurman, with whom I studied at Columbia. As far as Buddhist scholars go, Prof. Thurman has my respect because he lived as a monk for 3 years. While that does not make him a master, it does give him direct experience, which would seem a necessity when it comes to understanding a religion that preaches direct experience.

Clearly I feel there is strong evidence of cross-fertilization both historical as well as philosophicalp

Perhaps you would like to offer the evidence here...so that I can pick it apart.

It would conversely have been impossible for them not to affect each other

To be clear, I am not arguing that they did not affect each other at all. I am arguing against the idea that Chan (Zen) was a Chinese invention or that it developed from Taoism.

At a philosophical level to take your view one would have to argue that the changes in thought and approach from Indian Buddhism as it transmuted into Cha'n

This, for example! This is what I'm arguing against. I'm arguing that it did not transmute, that Bodhidharma already "had" Chan before he ever arrived in India.

Earlier in the thread I listed 4 points that summarize Bodhidharma's teachings. Perhaps someone can tell me where those points come from?

However I have yet to come across a Chan master who regards himself (wastes his time?) being a professional historian - they are all rather focused on the more important here and now and liberation...

You might want to look up Master Sheng-Yen. Althought not a "professional" historian, his understanding of Buddhist history is probably comparable.

Obviously, I get a great deal from Sifu Wong, but I did practice and study Buddhism for several years before meeting him. Sifu Wong's understanding of Buddhist history has continually amazed me. There are not many people who can read the classics and supporting documents in their original language and communicate those ideas in English.

Oh...and did I mention that he also happens to be a master of the subject being studied? Yes. Key point there.

OK. Now I really have to study for tomorrow's test...

[Marcus]

Good morning everyone,

MikeB -

Anthony, working through my well thumbed copy of Sifu's "The complete book of Shaolin", on p311 I find the 4 points you mentioned earlier:

Not recorded in language and words
Transmission beyond the tradition
Directly pointing at the mind
Entering Buddhahood in an instant

Here is part of the text that follows (wish I had one of those pens that MikeB mentioned ):

"The above lines originally spoken by the Buddha to Mahakasyapa when the World-Honoured One transmitted Zen to the Indian First Patriarch, and later propagated by Bodhisattva (Bodhidharma?), summarize the main features of Zen Buddhism. They also show the principal doctrines in Zen Buddhism, illustrating how different they are from Taoism"

There then follows an in depth, clear explanation of the 4 lines above which continues on p312 onwards, for those of you who have a copy of this book I encourage you to read it (as I cannot face typing it all ).

I have heard that Bodhidharma's teaching so well exemplified these 4 tenets that they are sometimes mistakenly accredited to him.

Sifu Stier can you help me with the following point? My trusty "The Shambhala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen" has the following to say regarding Prajnadhara:

"twenty seventh patriarch in the Indian lineage of Ch'an".

Is Prajnadhara the same person as Prajnatara, who you mentioned was of the Sarvastivada Sect? Or are they different people? I hope you can iron out this crease in my understanding.

Andrew - Thankyou for reminding me that our practice is also a practice of Zen

BarryS - Thanks for the stories

Kind regards

Marcus



Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Zhang Wuji]

Interestingly talking of martial arts Sifus and Chinese philosophy I read an article this week by my old Sifu (not that I ever heard him ever called Sifu) Dan Docherty. He was saying that Confucious was something of a failed adviser in his lifetime (and was only 'succesful' posthumously) which was amusingly ironic if accurate.

Ah yes. The very controversial Mr Dan Doherty. I am not using Master Doherty or other titles because I think he has publicly stated he does not like being addressed like that. What I like about Mr Doherty is that he is what the Americans would call a no-shitter (please don't slap me for foul language). I think he has severely pissed off many Taijiquan teachers both Yang and Chen. But a lot of what he says makes sense, although he seems to see Taijiquan as only a fighting art.

On Taosim and Confucious (let's use Kongzi, shall we?), it is not always apparent to non-Chinese that neither Dao nor Chan are central tenets in Chinese philosophy. When I was in school, what was taught was Rujia (Confucian) studies and when I was doing my tertiary education, and reading the ideology of China, Rujia always took paramount place. Every single Mainland Chinese I speak to disparage Dao and Chan when they are compared to Rujia. The popular theory is that Rujia is exploited by tyrannical governments in China and Singapore as a philosophy to justify their governance models.

Both Laozi and Kongzi are actually regarded as failed advisors of their time. Even Mengzi admitted as much when the Emperor he was advising did not take his advice. But that does not mean the philosophy is flawed. Remember that the highest teaching of a religion or philosophy is never shared by the common masses. Otherwise why do so few popular followers of any major religion meditate? The real value of Laozi and Kongzi is not in politics but spiritual development. When their teachings are internalised in the real de jure leaders of a country, as opposed to a system of governance, their effectiveness really shines through. Dare i say it - look at the Singapore government which prides itself on being Confucian. Despite its many faults, it is a government that the people are proud of.

Now, I have to go back to work and preparing for my exam (Anthony is not the only one cramming). The exam is about, inter alia, a study of the conflicting religions in classical Chinese literature. My chosen classic is Journey to the West.

[Sifu Stier]

Re: The 27th Patriarch

Dear Marcus:

To the best of my knowledge, the 27th Buddhist Patriarch, Prajnatara, is also know by his original Indian name, Arya Prajnadhara. This is in fact one and the same person. The Indian names are often imported into other languages with altered spellings, while attempting to retain a phonetically equivalent spoken pronunciation as in this case.

[Sifu Stier]

The Golden Pill!

The subject of Taoist Alchemy seems to capture the imagination of so many people in every era since its beginnings. The metaphysical and mystical spiritual philosophy of Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu, Tao-Chia, has little time for the popular superstitions and magical rituals of religious Taoism, Tao-Chiao, from which the Chinese Alchemy developed. In all probability, these two men viewed such shamanistic teachings and practices as a degenerated system when compared to the more purely abstract philosophy of Classical Taoism which they taught. Nonetheless, the common folk found religious solace and comfort in the Tao-Chiao ritual ceremonies and magical practices, particularly those methods which promised freedom from illness and disease, gracefully aging longevity, greater sexual prowess, and even physical immortality, in addition to the more mystical spiritual benefits of Lao-tzu's Tao-Chia. Additionally, such practices incorporated a practical inclusion of cultural mainstays like Yin and Yang, the 8 Trigrams and 64 Hexagrams of I-Ching, and the Classical Five Elements. These popular ideas all played their part in developing the elusive Elixir of Immortality, the Golden Pill!

[Mike B]

Barry - nice post you are quite right about the inadequacy of the internet posting format for real meaningful two-way dialogue and mutual learning. The whole post, counter-post thing really plays to the human tendency to put ones view across and defend it etc.

To be clear, I am not arguing that they did not affect each other at all. I am arguing against the idea that Chan (Zen) was a Chinese invention or that it developed from Taoism.

Well as been pointed out earlier no-one said/meant to say that. The point was more on the compare and contrast basis (as per the thread theme) - similarities and differences. As I say from a pure philosophical basis the whole Buddha-nature thing and how it changed is an interesting one.

On reflection though I think there is a certain 'religious' attachment possibly prevalent in these parts to Bodhidhamma and on the basis of treading warily re religion and politics I have no desire to make any comments about his role, his influences and thoughts in the last 2,500 years of Buddhism (altho' clearly Chan/Zen continued to develop/change after his death) lest I inadvertantly offend anyone.

As a Sinophile yourself maybe I caught you out with the J. bit but Joseph Needham wrote the iconic 'Science and Civilisation in China'.

Thank you for the reference to Master Sheng-Yen's site I will check it out when I have time. Unfortunately - due to more entertaining distractions - am behind on my essay of the week (Buddhism and the Environment) - "Does the Hua-yen idea of the deep inter-relation of everything and Dogens idea of everything as Buddha-nature, offer genuine, or only superficial support for environmental action?" - so far my provisional answer is "Dunno and don't really give a stuff" - however I doubt that will pass muster. Anyway point made just to be clear that I am possibly more aware of most of the waste of energy that can go into scholastic/intellectualisation (altho' to be fair to this one things like the Buddhist position on global warming is quite important).

Wuji - inded the very same and you are right - he is known as Dan and his Tai-Chi is at the martial end of the spectrum (although like many of these things practiced at that level the health benefits kind of come for free). Sadly/interestingly he seems to have become more establishment these days - young rebels become establishment and the establishment changes - its the way of the world. I still feel guilty over a decade on that I never find the time to continue his classes...

As for Kongzi and your general observations thank you for these - most interesting. To be clear my only wry/sad amusement came as I had never had him down as a 'posthumous success' - it always strikes me as sad when people are - as it were - proved right only after their death and never lived to see their triumph (many artists like that of course). I thought LaoTzi was a retired civil servant (ie not unsuccessful in his day job at the time).

Interesting re your exam (I am fortunate in only having to do essays - no memory tests ) and your topic. Its a vast subject for another day but to me the mystery of the Chinese civilisation is how they blew it (ie the great lead over everyone else - off the top of my head there is some stat like volume of steel production in C12th China was only surpassed in the late C19th in Victorian Britain). Anyway it is a vast subject but I have always (rightly or wrongly) laid some of this at the door of overly-Confucian rigidity.

OK enough waffle and B/S from me - I have to go and apply the same processes elsewhere (altho' rather harder to get away with 'there' ).

Merry xmas.

Mike

[Luo Lang]

Hey Wuji,
All the best and Good luck with your exam!

My chosen classic is Journey to the West.

Nice to hear: I like this story. Maybe you could tell me more about in detail in the near future
Say Hello to the Monkey God!

Warmest regards

Roland

[Kaijet]

Modern Chan/Zen

Hello all,

I like to tell a true story about words,intellect and Zen.
On my years of travelling in Asia I went also to the place in India were Buddha was born, it is called Lumbini.
I stayed there over night in a guesthouse. At the breakfast time I was sitting in front of three Zen nuns from Japan with grey robes on. One all the time smiling Mahayana monk was doing the breakfast service for us. In the moment he came with a smile to our table he stoped for a short moment with his smiling and was looking on the three serious looking, glasses wearing and not smiling nuns. The orange robe wearing and smiling monk was saying to the nuns:" I´m thinking you are reading to much books about". Then he was turning arround with a smile in his face and was doing his service.
For me the intellect is the greatest enemy no matter you walk on the path of Dao or Buddha.
Better to sitt with cross legs and stop thoughts and work hard for the ultimate truth.

[Mike B]

Taisihing Kai - thank you for sharing the story - it is certainly easy to forget to smile from the heart enough (other than after the "feet together, stand upright.." bit ). I also agree entirely that for Zen and Qigong intellect can be counterproductive and a hindrance. As for bantering around in internet fora - philosophical debate probably takes one entirely in the wrong direction away from Nirvana and progress in our arts.

In terms of dhamma though there are many paths and traditions and the intellect and study play different roles in each (whilst in all 'non-intellect' is of course essential) - its difficult eg I would have thought in most traditional Tibetan monasteries to get far without one's nose in a book.

Of course the unfortunate thing is there is no league table of 'success rates' for all these different schools - that would make the choice much easier

So in the meantime we all work diligently (well sometimes...) on our own salvation and walk different paths. Talking of which a business chum I haven't seen for a little while, once he found out my dhamma interest earlier this year has been chasing me to 'ask for forgiveness and repentance from Christ' as he thinks otherwise my eternal soul has had it... On the other hand as Lemmy (of Motorhead) says 'all the pool tables are in hell'...

May all beings indeed be happy.

Kind regards and respect.

Mike

ps love to Christine - I hope she is well.