Counters to: Black Tiger Breaks Flank

[Andrew]

Excellent post Adam. I agree with 95% of what you wrote.

Discussing techniques like this doesn't do much. What matters is what you do in the fight.

This is something I completely disagree with. Discussing techniques helps further the understanding of the underlying principles and philosophy of a technique or skill. If someone knows a technique but does not understand its application, theory or possess the skill to apply it, the technique is then useless. Does this then mean that the pattern is useless? No. Of course not. It means that the pattern is useless to that particular practitioner.

So what does discussion of such a pattern achieve? Better understanding of important principles .... at least for those who are ready to listen and try and understand.


I have been very busy recently and have not really had time to follow this thread. However, the last few posts have caught my interest. I very much like my Sihing's post (Sifu Anthony Korahais). It is very clear. It also shows that he has personal experience of applying this pattern (as do I).

For anyone wondering if they could just "drop the elbow", I suggest they seek out someone skilled in the application of this pattern and see what happens. I have done just this with several people. Dropping the elbow is certainly not a viable option .... at least not if the pattern is applied correctly.

[Andrew]

To be honest, I feel statements like this over-mystify the internal martial arts and lead people farther from applicable skill.

Agreed.This sounds wonderful. Can you share some personal experiences you've had implementing this in sparring (not necessarily a fight) with a forceful, aggressive opponent?

I would also be most interested in and would appreciate reading Daoist's comments and answers to these excellent points and questions from Adam.

[Daoist]

I will respond to this:

Perhaps you would care to clarify/elaborate on this. As it reads right now, I very strongly disagree with this statement. Chi is an essential component in internal martial arts and the base upon which good kung fu is built, but it is still just the base. One needs techniques to put the qi to use. The exception would be a practitioner who has built a largly disproportional amount of qi/force compared to his opponent (to which I would refer you to post 28 of this thread).

To be honest, I feel statements like this over-mystify the internal martial arts and lead people farther from applicable skill.

How can I explain? Chi gives you skill (speed, strength, sensitivity). These skills give birth to your techniques. A technique by itself does not have much use without these.

Actually, I think too much discussion of technique without purpose leads the student astray. What I said before I hope wasn't too mystical. That was the clearest way I could say the truth about fighting.

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This sounds wonderful. Can you share some personal experiences you've had implementing this in sparring (not necessarily a fight) with a forceful, aggressive opponent?

Lol. I suppose I could. That might be going off in a different direction though. When I said "You are your body, you are the technique", I meant it as a way of thinking to help someone understand fighting spirit. In a fight, there is only doing. Whatever techniques/skills you have practiced, they should flow from you, there should be no thought. Your body should express everything naturally. If you can't do this, then either you haven't practiced in the right way, or you are trying to force dead techniques onto your opponent.

The best martial art I have learned that achieves this effortless flow in fighting is Taijiquan. It takes a tremendous amount of determination to achieve, but it is well worth it. Fighting truly becomes an art.

Adam, have you ever fought?

[Andrew]

In a fight, there is only doing. Whatever techniques/skills you have practiced, they should flow from you, there should be no thought. Your body should express everything naturally. If you can't do this, then either you haven't practiced in the right way, or you are trying to force dead techniques onto your opponent.

Agreed. Nicely put.

I would still appreciate some more concise answers and comments on the remaining points, though.

[Daoist]

Whoops. Which points did I miss or need to clarify?

[hakfudisciple]

If someone knows a technique but does not understand its application, theory or possess the skill to apply it, the technique is then useless. Does this then mean that the pattern is useless? No. Of course not. It means that the pattern is useless to that particular practitioner.

I agree with this 100% and it's what I was trying to say in a few post.

Hey Jeff. How are you going to sink a broken elbow?

Hey Anthony!

Long time my friend how are you doing?

The lifting of the arm and twisting of the wrist is just not as simple as it looks in the video IMO... It is very easy to sink the elbow before the elbow for the break is applied. Just as he grabs for the wrist and attempts to lift you need to ever so slightly retract the arm while sinking the elbow... It doesn't require you to completely sink the elbow downward.

It's something that requires video on my part to explain but I have no idea if I'll be able to do any anytime soon...

[Adam B]

Adam, have you ever fought?

I used to get in fights quite a bit (about once every couple of months). Interestingly since I started consistently training Shaolin Kung Fu, I haven't felt the need or been in a situation where I got in a fight. I have had a full contact sparring session without gloves, though.

Whoops. Which points did I miss or need to clarify?

I believe he's referring to this question:

Can you share some personal experiences you've had implementing this in sparring (not necessarily a fight) with a forceful, aggressive opponent?

... with an emphasis on personal experience over theory.

[Andrew]

Whoops. Which points did I miss or need to clarify?

Adam is correct. There is also:

Chi gives you skill (speed, strength, sensitivity). These skills give birth to your techniques. A technique by itself does not have much use without these.

which you presented in response to the previous query. Chi gives you skill? This gives birth to your techniques? This still sounds "mysterious". I would like to ask you to elaborate as such things can also easily be misunderstood. Maybe give an example or two if you would? It would be appreciated.

[Daoist]

Can you share some personal experiences you've had implementing this in sparring (not necessarily a fight) with a forceful, aggressive opponent?

Yes. I used to fight challenge matches regularly several years ago when I was younger (I guess I still am young). If you are asking me to share specific details, I guess I could share a little if you really are curious. "You are your body, you are your technique". I used to tell that to my friends when we would discuss fighting strategy to remind us all to keep grounded to the root of fighting, which is in fact simple. This leads me to what I said that Andrew had a question about:

Chi gives you skill (speed, strength, sensitivity). These skills give birth to your techniques. A technique by itself does not have much use without these.

There are special skills that can dramatically increase the flow of chi within your body which can make your attacks lightning quick. Chi obviously also gives you strength, and through skills like tui shou you can learn to anticipate your opponent's movements. When I said that "chi gives birth to your technique"....

The daoist arts place great emphasis on effortless force. You need to train the chi to lead your body through the techniques, forms, and while fighting. There is no conscious movement, the chi leads. The taiji classics say "the chi mobilizes the body". Not many people know what this really means. It is referring to spontaneous chi movement. Without getting into too much detail, there are certain exercises that train the Shen. Then you will be able to accomplish this.

[Adam B]

Yes. I used to fight challenge matches regularly several years ago when I was younger (I guess I still am young). If you are asking me to share specific details, I guess I could share a little if you really are curious. "You are your body, you are your technique". I used to tell that to my friends when we would discuss fighting strategy to remind us all to keep grounded to the root of fighting, which is in fact simple. This leads me to what I said that Andrew had a question about:

Daoist,

Thanks for sharing. However, this response is still purely theoretical. Taking (and even winning) challenge matches does not mean that you're using taijiquan principles and techniques simply because you say things like "You are your body, you are your technique" when discussing it. I'm not saying or implying that you aren't using them, but your posts have yet to show a direct connection between tai chi theory and your personal experience in fighting/sparring. I don't need/want specific details of fights, but I would be very interested in a direct connection between your fighting experience and daoist philosophy.

There are special skills that can dramatically increase the flow of chi within your body which can make your attacks lightning quick. Chi obviously also gives you strength, and through skills like tui shou you can learn to anticipate your opponent's movements. When I said that "chi gives birth to your technique"....

Thanks for sharing this and the other clarifying information. It gives me a much better picture of what you meant earlier.

The daoist arts place great emphasis on effortless force. You need to train the chi to lead your body through the techniques, forms, and while fighting. There is no conscious movement, the chi leads. The taiji classics say "the chi mobilizes the body". Not many people know what this really means. It is referring to spontaneous chi movement. Without getting into too much detail, there are certain exercises that train the Shen. Then you will be able to accomplish this.

I agree with most of this. It is basic Taijiquan theory (although leaving out that "Yi leads the qi"). What I would love to see is a post that illustrates your ability to implement these concepts in a practical way.

Edit: So far the majority of your posts have been information that is readily available on Daoist Arts. I'm looking for something that shows you truly understand and implement it.

We place a high value on direct experience and practical application. You'll notice that the majority of WahNam members will for the most part only post authoritatively on topics that they do have direct experience of, and it will typically be in a practical context. I know it can be difficult to communicate in this way, but it ensures that people actually know what they're talking about instead of simply quoting something they read somewhere.

[Andrew]

Thank you for the clarifications. As usual in recent times, I don't have much time to answer. However, I would like to make a couple of comments.

keep grounded to the root of fighting, which is in fact simple

Could you please expand on this. It sounds intriguing.

There are special skills that can dramatically increase the flow of chi within your body which can make your attacks lightning quick. Chi obviously also gives you strength,

I think I understand. We transmit these skills in our basic Chi Kung, Tajiquan and Shaolin Kung Fu classes and, of course, in our Grandmaster's courses. The skills, though, need time and practice to develop to a sufficient level.

and through skills like tui shou you can learn to anticipate your opponent's movements

We also learn to sense and observe our opponents so as to judge their moves. These skills are also standard elements in our classes and courses. Certain practices can ehnance this skill even further. Tui Shou, Chi Sao are good examples.

The daoist arts place great emphasis on effortless force.

As do the Shaolin Arts ---- assuming we have the same understanding of effortless force. Maybe you could add one short sentence just to clarify your understanding?

Without getting into too much detail, there are certain exercises that train the Shen.

In our school, all movements (whether in Chi Kung, Taijiquan or Shaolin Kung Fu) are a training of the 3 internal harmonies (Jing, Chi and Shen). I would be really very interested to hear any details you would be prepared to share. Of course, to be clear, noone here expects you to share any top secrets of your school or system.


It looks like our systems may possess many similar principles although, it would seem, our training methodologies are quite different.

[Daoist]

Adam,

Edit: So far the majority of your posts have been information that is readily available on Daoist Arts. I'm looking for something that shows you truly understand and implement it.

Hm. I don't know what much else to say. I guess that is the problem with words. Like I told you and hakfudisciple before, if this discussion was in the real world, it would be much easier to demonstrate. I guess you are looking for something specific but I am not sure what. What are you looking for?

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Andrew,

The root of fighting is simple. Kungfu is a complex art, but I prefer to think of things in simple terms. Like I mentioned before, whatever style or techniques you practice, it is all movement. What I didn't mention before is stillness. One has to carefully exchange movement and stillness to win. One is yang, the other yin. If my opponent attacks me, I respond with stillness. Would I not be hit? No, I wait for him. Once he is in motion to strike, meet him with stillness, then change to movement. It doesn't matter the technique. Yield to the attack (Yin), neutralize (yin-yang), then attack (yang). That is all there is to it.

Effortless force is something I have yet to achieve. My sifu has it, and I have only seen a few masters show it. When I say "effortless force", I mean the ability to repulse someone by merely touching their attack. This might seem too fantastic to believe but it is true. Not many masters have this skill though. One sure way of getting it is through Taijiquan, which I devote all my practice to nowadays.

Now the Shen. You are right, I can only say so much about this. Many kungfu schools/sects have various methods of training the Chi, but very rarely do they have specific training for the Shen. The Shen is the key to effortless fighting. When you train the Shen, the Chi is already being trained. There are countless benefits that Shen training offers. Some are being able to sense your opponent's movements before they move, being able to see your opponent in what seems to be slow motion, being able to strike very fast and accurately, and countless others. Besides fighting benefits, the health benefits are better. Shen training slows down the aging process and gives you a lot of surplus energy, which you must know how to store, otherwise it could harm your body. From what I was taught, the Shen exercises were developed to attain immortality. Whether or not that is the case, it will improve your health tremendously and I believe it does increase the life span.

This is a long post. I don’t know what else to say now, I’m all out of words! Lol

[Chiahua]

It is very easy to sink the elbow before the elbow for the break is applied. Just as he grabs for the wrist and attempts to lift you need to ever so slightly retract the arm while sinking the elbow... It doesn't require you to completely sink the elbow downward.

Sifu Mark's post earlier in this thread addresses this in part:

The safest point to "defend" against this technique is probably at the 0-40 percent.Then you could safely apply all the techniques that has been suggested.

Like anything dont get to dualist in the approach.......there are many factors to take into account such as size(andrew) Flexibile monkey arms(darryl)
Skill, speed handsomeness(me)

If you do successfully sink the elbow before the technique reaches 40%, the defender still needs to cover adequately; a skillful exponent may recognize this intention and change gears. In that position, the exponent (the one attempting chin na) can "close" the extended arm with the hand gripping the elbow. The "closure" could be low, in which case the exponent "leaks" over the closed hand with a throat strike, or "close high" and pluck some tasty spare-ribs. (someone else will have to verify this, I'm just guessing)

“bridge-come-bridge-above-travel, no-bridge-smoothly-water-flow”. Figuratively, it means that when an opponent attacks, you follow in along his attack to counter-attack maintaining the “bridges”. But if the “bridges” are broken, you follow in to counter-attack too, flowing smoothly with the opponent's momentum.

[hakfudisciple]

I used to get in fights quite a bit (about once every couple of months). Interestingly since I started consistently training Shaolin Kung Fu, I haven't felt the need or been in a situation where I got in a fight.

There is an old Chinese saying that translates learn kung fu 1 yr you fight all the time... learn kung fu 10 yrs you never fight!

I have had a full contact sparring session without gloves, though..

What type of full contact sessions without gloves? Like Kyokushin karate type full contact?

[hakfudisciple]

Sifu Mark's post earlier in this thread addresses this in part:

If you do successfully sink the elbow before the technique reaches 40%, the defender still needs to cover adequately; a skillful exponent may recognize this intention and change gears. In that position, the exponent (the one attempting chin na) can "close" the extended arm with the hand gripping the elbow. The "closure" could be low, in which case the exponent "leaks" over the closed hand with a throat strike, or "close high" and pluck some tasty spare-ribs. (someone else will have to verify this, I'm just guessing)

The attacks in which you speak of... the person attempting the break is exposed to themselves also. If Adam or anyone else here can pull it off it doesn't matter what I think about the technique... I have said that before.

Just because I see a problem with it doesn't make it any less or more effective... I'm stating my opinion on the technique and sequence coming from a different point of view. It could very well be that this technique could be applied on me and I may be unable to counter...