How would you handle a slugger? How do you know? How did you get there?

[drunken boxer]

I was in a bar and invited to sit with some people who began talking and treating me to beers. A Drunk "Slugger", one of their friends began eyeing me and calling me out. Without saying anything he walked over, reached across the table and grabbed a bottle to hit me. He was directly facing me, he reached for the bottle with his right hand. When he grabbed it, I used two fingers, put it gently above his elbow and supported it with the centerline, 6 harmonies, and a smile. All his force was neutralized, and I walked away calmly, avoiding all conflict.

No technique is worth anything without being supported by a Qi-Gong state of mind.

First train mind, then train fundamentals, then train techniques.

This has worked for me in "real" fights in every instance...

Adam I found your account interesting. I mentioned that in my practice with my instructors on this, they made sure to pay attention to both mind and techniques. Obviously I want to use the right techniques and develop the skill and force in them. But I do feel, and they agreed, that Shen is the main area I fall down here. I have techniques which work to defend 1, 2, 3 or more punches, and to counter sometimes - but when the pressure and force is ramped up in sparring, to approach reality, this is when I tense/get nervous and the same technique stops working. Which tells me that keeping my Shen whilst under greater threat is my main problem here. Which seems to correlate with what you are saying regarding mind and techniques.

Technically the type of attack you describe here is not what I mean by a slugging attack, though you could refer to the guy as a 'slugger', I'm talking about someone just swinging punches, and with no warning (unlike where you see them reaching for the bottle first).
However in terms of threat and Shen, then the fact that a bottle is involved makes the threat even greater and something that would unsettle my Shen even more, so the mind aspect of your described defence is very relevant.

[drunken boxer]

- Through experience in a controlled training environment.

Is a controlled training environment the same as facing a slugger in a real-life situation? Of course not. Anyone who thinks so is fooling himself.

Can I comfortably handle any and every slugger? No. Of course, if the opponent is significantly more strong, fast and/or skillful, he'll win the fight. But my first priority is coming out unharmed, not landing the most blows.

Thank you Siheng, thats exactly what I wanted to know, to what level did seniors have to go to in training to be sure they could deal with this type of attack.

Instead of asking "how do you know it will work?", I would recommend you to ask "why shouldn't it work?", or perhaps, "why hasn't it worked for me?".

Yes Siheng, I realise I haven't made this thread as clear as it could be "Why hasn't it worked for me" is one of the things that I was trying to ask along with "How did you make it work and prove to yourself it worked" to seniors as I wanted to know what they did that I haven't done yet.

It's good to bear in mind that just because we practise the greatest martial art doesn't mean we're automatically the best fighters. To become a really good fighter asks for direction, determination, courage, and perhaps above all else, honesty.

I wouldn't claim to have direction or courage but I do feel that honesty is what has led me to this current course of action. I had friends (non Wahnam) who watched the same fight as me who felt they could easily beat that slugger. Honestly I don't think they could.
I believe my main strengths in martial arts, are number 1: having the great fortune to learn genuine Kung Fu from a genuine master, and number 2 having the experience of fighting many boxers and sluggers and knowing realistically where I stand in terms of being able to use my Kung Fu to fight them.

So how to make the transition from controlled training environment to real-life fighting?

Gradually. When you're happy with your results with your classmates, I would recommend to seek out practitioners of other styles and have friendly sessions with them. Then use what you've learned with them to enhance your kungfu in your personal practice. If you like - and if your Sifu thinks it's a good idea - you can also consider entering competitions.

I would love to enter competitions but I'm just so far away from the required level that I try not to even think about it. I'd say if I could reach for the sky and achieve anything - then I'd love to introduce as many people as possible to the wonderful benefits of kungfu and chi kung. And I think the best way to advertise and prove it works would be by winning competitions.

I also wholeheartedly recommend attending the Warrior Project. When it comes to no-nonsense fighting, Taisihing Kai is a real fountain of experience and knowledge.

Oh yes indeed! Some of the techniques I use now I learned on Warrior Projects! And I also learned that Shen is what I need to really use them well. Once I've done Wing Chun, I plan to spend a year attending every Warrior Project in the Western Hemisphere!

In any case, I would advise against seeking out unfriendly training / sparring situations. To put it simply, the harms far, far outweigh the benefits.

Thats a problem with boxers. People say "seek out some friends from boxing and have a friendly sparring match with them". I don't have any friends from boxing, only acquaintances, and when they spar they seek only to win, and will do everything in their power to achieve that.

Many thanks for all your help and contributions to the thread so far Siheng. I hope that I'll be able to report back more success from following your advice.

[Adam B]

Benedikt,

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner. Thanks for the response. It gives me a much better picture of what you're talking about.

For me, I also don't use full contact sparring as a specific training method, but more of a test. I do find it very beneficial, however, as there is no hiding from where your current skill level is.

All the best,

[Markus Kahila]

Many thanks for all your help and contributions to the thread so far Siheng.

- It's my pleasure. Actually, thanks to you - this is a great thread with lots of good points from everyone.


Take care,

[drunken boxer]

MMA point of view: A multiple charge attack is called a straight blast.
You would either circle out (look down his ear) and take advantage of the angle or drop and do a take down.

Before I started Kungfu I relied on boxing, kickboxing, and just streetfighting when I got in fights. I always trained to circle out, use footwork etc, but generally found there usually wasn't time or room, at least not for my level of skill.

If your anticipation and timing is good, then you may kick or strike to stop him in his tracks.

This was the main thing I used to rely on, usually a jab followed by a cross, ie a 1-2, but sometimes just a cross if there was time. I have stopped some would-be sluggers before they got started by doing this.

If you were too late; you would cage (cover your head, turtle your neck and make your abdomen small) close in and clinch him up, then use knees, elbows, dirty boxing, pull his head down and choke, or take to ground.

Used this cage a few couple of times to success too, also with head movement. Still got hit but it helped to deflect, avoid punches or at least make them only glancing blows, not allowing a solid hit. At some point have to come out of the cage to retaliate, or eventually they'll get through which happened me a time or two as well.

[Andy]

A1) A response A2) I dont know A3) kung fu experience

Dear Paul (drunken boxer) Sihing,

Ive been reading this thread with great interest and enjoyed all of the contributions.

I know you have said you are looking for a response in terms of what people have experienced and not what they think they would do...however I havent the relevant experience but do have thoughts on what I would do

The first thing that comes to mind specific for use against a trained/powerful opponent would be a tactic from the last warrior project taught by Sifu Kai up here in Scotland:

retreat-retreat-retreat-strike decisively

(i.e. evade & parry, evade & parry, kick to groin)

An alternate idea Ive had from thinking about your specific example of an attack by a slugger in which there is not much space to move backwards would be the following sequence:

Swallow-(rear hand covers/brushes, front hand strikes)Horn Punch-(rear hand)vertical Snake strike-Naughty Monkey

Repeat if necessary.

This is (offensively, without the swallow) a combination sequence I train derived from Four Gates. With the swallow and used defensively I have found it excellent for evading and countering attacks that begin at a high level, such as a trained white snake or an untrained person swinging for your face.

In a textbook example the swallow would be enough to avoid the initial onslaught whilst the rear hand covers the next incoming attack - simultaneously the front hand horn punch shoots round and connects with the temple, stunning the opponent and creating the opportunity for the snake strike to land.

If the opponents initial attack was too forcefully pressing then the horn punch could be used as a forearm smash (against opponents upper arms) to deflect away the momentum of both of his arms and create a bridge for the split second necessary for the snake strike to the throat to land. If the attacker isnt stopped the naughty monkey would take the power out of his legs before the subsequent follow up horn punch, black tiger, etc.

Ive found this a really good sequence in Kung Fu terms because the rear hand snake is a rapid technique and difficult to defend, leaving your partners Shen at mid level and creating the opening for the kick. Even if your partner knows the sequence, defending the low level kick creates an opportunity for the next high/side horn punch.

Even though I havent trained it against a non cooperative kick boxer, Im sure it would still be effective, especially as they are not used to opponents swallowing or the unorthodox angle of the horn punch. Striking a boxer's arms is also a good tactic I learned from the Tan Tui course a few years back.

I know this post reads like one big intellectualisation but I thought Id at least pass on the Horn Punch-Snake-Naughty Monkey combination to try out for any of my brothers and sisters who havent yet trained it. It really is nice and the beauty of our kung fu is that it flows wonderfully into all kinds of modifications and other sequences...

I know that the difference between a cooperative opponent, a non-cooperative opponent and real life are worlds apart!...but Im also on that journey of making my kung fu real life combat effective and Ive found it useful to post my thoughts on situations such as the one described.

I think the contributions of earlier posters have hit on the key points already; increasing mind cultivation to increase Shen for real life situations, and increasing Gong to make sure your attack and defence is formidable.

Best,

Andy

PS Ive assumed a life-or-death worst case scenario above, snake strike (or palm) to heart is obviously more compassionate.

[drunken boxer]

Asking my Kungfu brothers to slugger me and being able to defend successfully all the time. How do I really know? If my sparring partners allowed my to strike them full on, I believe I can stop them in their tracks before they throw the first punch, or after one, or two punches. So my partners will have to let me strike them full on if they don't believe me .

Excellent idea, I shall look for some volunteers in class next week, not me
In seriousness its a good point as to what would happen if we changed it to allow you to strike full on, though in fairness we'd have to allow the person playing the slugger to strike full on too to make it fair. I wouldn't want to do this as I agree with you that you could drop him/hurt him. If I have slugged at you at 80% say and you were just able to avoid the punch by 1 or 2 inches then I would think that going to 100% I could hit you. But when we practice I usually find it difficult to get within 6 inches or a foot even, or even to get my strikes off at all therefore I believe upping it to 100% you would still be effective.

For me personally defending though I know that if someone uses slugging or boxing on me I find it first of all much much harder than when they use kungfu, due to many factors like broken rhythm, less control they have, the fact we don't train to defend this type of attack as much as we train to defend kung fu, and second I know that someone can definitely hit me when they go 70% or 80% as a slugger, therefore obviously a full blown slugger can definitely hit me.

So thats what this thread is about - as you say I know we have other practitioners who can defend this type of attack, I want to do what they've done, or be able to do what they can do. And I want a way of proving it to myself when I'm done.

Maybe I'm dualistic thinking here but I can see both sides of the debate reached later in the thread.
For Martin - I can see how he doesn't need someone to come at him at 100% to know he can defend that. I also believe he'd be willing to let someone try it if they wanted. And I believe he'd be successful.

I also don't need to see someone attack at full force on Tai Siheng Kai for example, or other top martial artists, to know that they can deal with it.

But for me personally, I don't know if I will ever be able to believe I can handle a slugger until I actually DO handle a slugger. Does this mean I go out and look for fights? No because:
1. Unfortunately I know that enough fights look for me that I never have to look for them. I usually have to take some type of action every other week to avoid a fight.
2. Fortunately there is a way to test this. Boxers (or kickboxers) are like brilliant versions of sluggers. They can use the same type of attacks but with much greater speed, force, accuracy, skill etc etc etc. Hence when I was boxing I didn't worry too much about sluggers because I knew I could just outslug them in most cases.

So my thinking is to get to the level where I can at least handle people pretending to be sluggers in class, then pretending to be boxers, then actual boxers.

But just as I've wrote this post I'm realising that - a boxer is an improved version of a slugger, due to throwing similar techniques at greater speed/force. Someone like Martin imitating a boxer, not like usual imitation in class, using only slugging/boxing but with real intent to hit - could be looked at as an improved version of a slugger too, or even an improved version of a boxer. Because he has more force. Therefore if I train to get to the stage where I allow someone like Martin to try to hit me full force (with gloves) that would be a confirmation that I could do it. Though I'd definitely want to make sure that he would not use kungfu. And even using boxing, I wouldn't want to be hit full force by Martin. So maybe at that stage it would be safer to just use an actual boxer for confirmation.

How do I know it would work against someone much bigger than me? I had the opportunity to practice with a colleague from Germany last year on a couple of accassions. I am 11 stones, 5 feet 11 inches and slim built. My colleague in almost 16 stones of muscle, 6 feet 3 inches, does Muay Thai and does competitions from time to time. From our practice, he did not feel stronger despite the obvious difference in size. Although we did not practice slugger attacks, he typically approached with 1-2 then other attackes depending on spacing. Again, if he allowed my to strike him full on with my counters, I sincerely believe there would not be further attacks from him .

Great account, thank you!

[drunken boxer]

I wanted to add that although I believe a true internal art can help a practitioner to become a very formidable fighter.

For me, its greatest benefit (particularly in this day and age) are the physical and mental health it has given me, How it has helped me to become a better father to my children, a better husband to my wife, a better son to my parents, and a better brother to my brothers and sisters. How it has enabled me to help others around me through advice, kindness and recitations for them. How free I feel. How happy and peaceful I am constantly. How much more I enjoy this life with improved wisdom through practicing an internal art from a great school.

(This post is not directed at Martin just using his wonderful quote to help explain something.)

My main aim in life is happiness too. If you gave me a choice between being a fearsome fighter, or being a happy man with a great life, beautiful girlfriend, lots of love in my life etc - then I would choose happiness.

However for me, since I can remember, my happiness has always been inextricably linked to my fighting ability. I have felt under threat my whole life, not perceived threat but actual threat because I have been attacked many times. I don't want to debate this but I have and do face physical threat, ie I don't want to hear "Oh you bring it on yourself, that way of thinking, the cosmos blah blah blah." If you think that just humour me for now (because I won't be persuaded otherwise on this.) So the solution is not prayer or changing pyschological habits etc, the solution is being able to deal with the threat righteously and decisively - ie by being able to handle any would be attackers. And by handle I mean flatten. So that is why in my pursuit of happiness, being able to defend myself is a crucial factor, just as it is in free nations who believe in this. They all use diplomacy - but they also have powerful armed forces.

One example is, in my pursuit of happiness, in my attempts to achieve the things that Martin has, one thing I do is go out to meet girls. And when I do this, people always either want fights, or they try and muscle in when I'm talking to a girl. I must either back down or teach them manners (verbally) - if I do this I must know in my mind that I'm ready to defend myself if they initiate an attack. Boxing gave me some of this happiness because I knew I could beat a lot of these guys or at least hurt them as much as they hurt me - but not all of them, and not with much safety guarantee.
To be truly happy with it though I want to go the next level with kungfu where I know I won't get hurt, then the level above that where I know I can defend myself in such a situation without hurting the attacker either. I believe I must achieve this before I can get to the level where the situations just don't occur in the first place.

[Benedikt]

But for me personally, I don't know if I will ever be able to believe I can handle a slugger until I actually DO handle a slugger.
So my thinking is to get to the level where I can at least handle people pretending to be sluggers in class, then pretending to be boxers, then actual boxers.

I would train it this way. If you can handle a good kick boxer a usual slugger will be no problem if you are relaxed.

Someone like Martin imitating a boxer, not like usual imitation in class, using only slugging/boxing but with real intent to hit - could be looked at as an improved version of a slugger too, or even an improved version of a boxer. Because he has more force.

Martin is not a boxer. He won't be as good as a boxer (in boxing) because he dosen't train boxing.

I would do it this way:

1. Train with a classmate who pretends to be a boxer

First easy to get used to the boxers attacks. After that full force fighting with real intent to hit.

2. Train with a real boxer

First easy then full force.


3. Slugger comes and you are well prepared. There is no guarantee that you'll win but you've got a real good chance of wining. Here a relaxed mind is very important.

If you want to handle a slugger you have to train realistic. So better become friendly with some punches on your face. With cloves.

[Martin Do]

Dear Sisook,

My main aim in life is happiness too

You have a good heart and I too hope you find your happiness .

Best wishes

Martin

[drunken boxer]

I just had a brilliant training session on this with Martin yesterday! I feel a lot better about the whole thing now, the stuff me, him and Nick have been working on is starting to work.
At the very least, I'm happy that I have a few techniques I can use now to put up a fight.

I think its all about Shen now. That is what I think myself, based on how I feel when I try to perform certain techniques, and based on watching for example Tai Siheng Kai perform the same technique. And also it is the point that Martin and Nick keep emphasising.

I can keep my Shen reasonably well as long as the other person is doing Kungfu, but once they start slugging then it is much more difficult because for me slugging/boxing strikes come in at a more awkward angle than any other strikes I know, and also because maybe seeing a slugging attack seems more 'real' because it triggers memories of facing this attack for real.

But I'm pleased with the start, and it gives me much better confidence in the future training and progression. I guess we will amp up the pressure / realism going forwards in the manner suggested by some people on this thread.

Ok next I want to respond to some more of the generous posts on here...

[drunken boxer]

I think this is one of the most relevant situations to consider when training for self-defense.
I still spar for fun against a western boxing opponent and often when there is an oportunity my opponent rushes in with a flurry of punchs which often overwhelms me
Precious Duck has worked extremely well, I have found that I can press my opponent whilst shuffling foward and repeating the pattern. They can still reach with a few jabs so I keep my guard hand over my face
I don`t feel I have enough skill to execute kicks effectively yet, although I can often see openings for a Happy Bird against this kind of attack

Hi Rob, good to hear you are training in this way and have found a good partner for it, and good to hear you too have had success using Precious Duck.

[drunken boxer]

Thread (golden dragon) blat!

Paul Sisook, was this one of the few counters I suggested was an option for you a couple of weeks ago when you came to my house for breakfast .

It may have been but the porridge was so good I might have lost concentration when you said it...
Yes I think it was actually suggested. I couldn't see it at the time. I could see Golden Dragon then "Blat!" but the "Blat!" would have been done by the opponent. But maybe we can try it again? I think I tried a modified version of it yesterday a couple of times ie:
Golden Dragon, Golden Dragon, Blat?

[drunken boxer]

Do you think even the most aggressive NHB fighters are always out for blood in their routine training?

I must confess that I did used to think this. Based on the fact that the western boxing clubs I went to (who all produced national champions and professional fighters) did this, ie sparring was the same as fighting, full contact and attempting to win by knockout (except where one fighter was much less experienced etc).

I assumed that MMA/NHB training would be just as aggressive as this.

However I have been an avid watcher of "The Ultimate Fighter" reality television show watching amateur cage fighters train and compete for a UFC contract, and I have read many autobiographies of MMA fighters, and I have a friend who went to a cage fighting club. All of these sources suggest that indeed the MMA fighters are not usually "out for blood" in their usual training, 60% intensity in sparring is a figure I hear quoted a lot.

And I would also say that all other things being equal, an MMA Fighter would beat a Western Boxer. Many Western Boxing champions have been honest enough to admit this. And of course all the MMA guys are adamant on it and willing to prove it! So that suggests 100% contact in sparring is not required to become a top fighter.

[drunken boxer]

I would train it this way. If you can handle a good kick boxer a usual slugger will be no problem if you are relaxed.




Martin is not a boxer. He won't be as good as a boxer (in boxing) because he dosen't train boxing.

I would do it this way:

1. Train with a classmate who pretends to be a boxer

First easy to get used to the boxers attacks. After that full force fighting with real intent to hit.

2. Train with a real boxer

First easy then full force.


3. Slugger comes and you are well prepared. There is no guarantee that you'll win but you've got a real good chance of wining. Here a relaxed mind is very important.

If you want to handle a slugger you have to train realistic. So better become friendly with some punches on your face. With cloves.

Thank you Benedikt. I really like your posts particularly this one.