Eagle Claw Master

[Jordan]

Next Video Available

Hey folks,

The next video is available.

Video 5 - Combat Sequence 1: Application 4 Boxers Left Jab

Enjoy!

[Marcus]

Here's the screenshot for Video 5:

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Marcus]

Hey everybody,

I was busy with home projects all this weekend (and my does the hall way floor look fine!), so a day later than planned, here is the screen shot for Combat Sequence 5: Boxer Bounces Away.

Once it's uploaded to the website, Jordan will post the link (though as many of you have already worked out, you could view it now on Youtube)

Kind regards
Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Jordan]

Hello again

The video is up at the usual place...

[Emiko H]

Dear Marcus,

What a wonderful thread! I've just come across your questions and wished that I had read them earlier. Indeed, I can definitely see how the opening moves exist in the Dragon Form.

It is amazing to see the applications that Sifu is showing in the video clips. Thank you, Marcus and Jordan, for posting the video clips. I am looking forward to seeing more of them and to following this stimulating discussion.

Warmest wishes,

Emiko

[Marcus]

Dear Emiko,

Lovely to hear from you and thank you for your kind words.

I received a lovely e-mail from Sifu yesterday asking me to convey his thanks to Matt and James for their comments. Here it is:

Being able to evaluate other styles of kungfu and other martial arts though he may not have practiced them, is a mark of a true kungfu master. Although Matt and James are not masters yet, they are on the right path to becoming masters one day if they continue their dedicated practice and study.

Their posts reveal that they probably understand more of Eagle Claw Kungfu than many Eagle Claw practitioners themselves. This is not a slight on Eagle Claw practitioners. The norm today is that kungfu practitioners of any style merely practice external forms, with little understanding of their combat application, and far less ability in using them in sparring. This is glaringly evident in kungfu practitioners, including some masters, using Boxing or Kick-Boxing in their free sparring.

But what is more significant is not merely evaluating other kungfu styles, but applying the same mental clarity and skills in evaluating everyday situations in real life. This thread in particular and our forum in general provides our students the opportunity to develop and practice such skills.

Best Regards

Sifu

You know it's true. Sifu is probably the biggest reader of threads on the forum! Sifu also commented that with videos for the Combat applications of the 50 sequences, will stop at Sequence 5. So we've still got plenty to whet your appetite

I'll post another video and screen capture shot tomorrow.

Kindest regards
Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Jamie Robson]

Hello,

This is indeed a very special thread, and I'd like to add some points to the discussion.

Initially, there was some tension around the question of Eagle Claw practitioners today.
Sipak Marcus asked if anyone could offer some insight into Eagle Claw applications, either from our own combat sequences or from other schools.

I'm surprised that no one has come forward with any explanation on the use of Eagle Claw, indeed, I was hoping Wong Ying would perhaps take the time to discuss the application of some Eagle Claw patterns.

I myself find the Eagle Claw combat sequences fascinating, as I was lucky enough to help Sigung (Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit) to take some pictures of the later sequences, which have still to be released. I was amazed at depth of each pattern and sequence of patterns.

I hope Wahnam members and forum guests add to this excellent thread, perhaps Wong Ying could discuss the combat functions of combat sequence 2?

Best Regards,

Jamie

[Andrea]

Dear Markus Sipak and Wahnam Family

I very much enjoy reading this thread and watching how through Sigung's application videos the beauty of Eagle Claw Kungfu unfolds. Even if I feel I am a bit too junior to contribute much, but I'll try to share some observations.

When Sisookgung Yeong kindly demonstrated some Eagle Claw Kungfu at the Taijiquan Intensive I was fascinated by it, but found it hard to tell why. Watching the application videos I start to see why. It is all flowing with the opponent. The sequence is fixed and yet each move's application emerges from the situation. In application 1 the response continues into an attack following the bridge. The grips in applications 2 and 3 emerge from the initiator's preceding move and rather than being a separate pattern prepare the next attack ... Taijiquan with fists and eagle claw grips .

As for the question how to respond to the applications 2 and 3. A response that came to my mind was Immortal Waves sleeves followed or not by a White Snake Shoots Venom (Beauty Looks at the Mirror/Poisonus snake). We use this in both TJQ and SKF to intercept pressing attacks. But then with an opponent flowing so much White Horse presents Hoof as Matt suggested, sounds safer. Or would the Eagle claw exponent grab the leg and follow this bridge too .

For my own practice I take with me two things:

1. Seemingly simple sequences like this one can have many applications and open up to an incredible depth.
2. Fists and grips can be used to flow with the opponent. (Pretty obvious to you all I am sure but to me fists and "claws" felt so far very hard and "unflowing").

With this in mind I go back to our Shaolin Wahnam sequences .

Andrea

[WongYing]

I have to say that I have been quietly, reading listening and watching this thread.

"Their posts reveal that they probably understand more of Eagle Claw Kungfu than many Eagle Claw practitioners themselves. This is not a slight on Eagle Claw practitioners."

To state that absolute novices with no training or experience in eagle claw at all "probably know more of eagle claw than practitioners of eagle claw themselves", and the follow up with "This is not a slight on Eagle Claw practitioners." is shockingly arrogant.

Of course it is, the statement being covertly made is that Wong Kiew Kit knows more about eagle claw skills, ,applications than the families currently teaching today

I mentioned in an earlier post, how when and where have these claims been qualified. I see no mention anywhere of Wong Kiew Kit meeting, visiting crossing friendly hands with any eagle claw practitioner to be able to substantiate these comments.

I also suggest that as I am sure that many of the members here have been busy looking for eagle claw on youtube, do not any of you notice disparity between the videos shown by WahNam and eagle claw on youtube. A huge difference in body mechanics etc.

If as being suggested here that the Wahnam association is for the first time reveleaing hidden secrets of eagle claw, why is the eagle claw community at large not banging on the door begging to learn.

For such a prolific SiFu of Martial arts, why at every turn does Wong Kiew Kit feel such a need to constantly imply that eagle claw taught by other families is incomplete. Maybe he should let his hands and videos speak for themselves with out having to resort to common insults.

Better yet back up his claims by meeting with eagle claw practioners in a freindly humble manner

Many have made derogatory comments regarding Wong Kiew Kit and Wahnam, only to be banned from the forum and silenced where possible, yet suggestions like we "Wahnam" are a font of martial knowledge are to be accepted by the martial arts community at large.

I suggest a little restraint is shown out of common courtesy and respect for other practioners be shown by Wong Kiew Kit, as I have done by not making comments as to the eagle claw I have seen demonstrated by Wong Kiew Kit. I still choose to not make comments on the video's or applications shown, as it would show poor Mo Duk to do so.

[WongYing]

I would welcome any direct reply reply from Wong Kiew Kit on my last post.

[Adam Kryder]

Understanding

Dear Wong Ying,

I can see from your posts that you are trying to come off very politely.

I can understand the frustrations you express in your last post.

Would you mind if I used this opportunity to offer some of my perspectives on the situation you mention?

Best Wishes,

Adam

[Zhang Wuji]

To state that absolute novices with no training or experience in eagle claw at all "probably know more of eagle claw than practitioners of eagle claw themselves", and the follow up with "This is not a slight on Eagle Claw practitioners." is shockingly arrogant.

Of course it is, the statement being covertly made is that Wong Kiew Kit knows more about eagle claw skills, ,applications than the families currently teaching today

I am not sure if you are being deliberately malicious here. You quoted My Sifu out of context. He did not say what you implied. What he said was “Their posts reveal that they (Matt and James) probably understand more of Eagle Claw Kungfu than many Eagle Claw practitioners themselves.”.

Personally I find my Sifu's opinion justified when it relates to you. You who claim to practice Eagle Claw cannot even mention a single Eagle Claw application, whatever your reason. Please note that Grandmaster Wong mentioned “many Eagle Claw practitioners”, which obviously denoted that Eagle Claw masters and some practitioners knew Eagle Claw combat application more than what Matt and James did. Moreover, Matt and James are not “absolute novices”.

What we are saying is that due to our own Shaolin basic training (which we believe has similarities to Eagle Claw's basic training), our students, Babnik, Matt and James, understand the principles and philosophy of the Eagle Claw art. Put another way, we use our own training and experience to relate to Eagle Claw.

You read the statement as demeaning all Eagle Claw practitioners, whereas I saw it as a general statement, supported by my Sifu's own experience and observations.

I am not an Eagle Claw practitioner, but my Taijiquan experience (outside of Shaolin Wahnam) gives me some insights into what my Sifu is saying. He has unequivocally said that many Taijiquan practitioners today are merely doing Taiji dance and not practising Taijiquan as the internal martial art it is. To many Taijiquan people, this would also seem very arrogant and offensive. Yet, from my own observations of Taijiquan practioners, I know this statement to be true, at least in my own country. True, there are individual practitioners and masters who are formidable Taijiquan combatants, and I do know a few of them, but by and large, many Taijiquan people practice an empty shell.

Lest you think that this is yet another Shaolin Wahnam "us versus them" kind of post, let me assure you that the few genuine Taijiquan schools in Singapore share my Sifu's view and tell their students exactly the same thing - that most Taijiquan practitioners merely practice the form but have no experience of qi or combat application.

I mentioned in an earlier post, how when and where have these claims been qualified. I see no mention anywhere of Wong Kiew Kit meeting, visiting crossing friendly hands with any eagle claw practitioner to be able to substantiate these comments.

For such a prolific SiFu of Martial arts, why at every turn does Wong Kiew Kit feel such a need to constantly imply that eagle claw taught by other families is incomplete. Maybe he should let his hands and videos speak for themselves with out having to resort to common insults.

Is there a reason why you are maliciously accusing my Sifu, Grandmaster Wong, of something he did not say? Are you trying to instigate ill-feelings between Shaolin Wahnam and Eagle Claw kungfu schools? In tactical terminology, this is known as “borrowing a knife to murder”. I would like to implore other masters to be wary of WongYing’s insidious intention. Indeed, it is because of my Sifu's great respect for Eagle Claw Kungfu that he asks his students to learn more about Eagle Claw combat application.

Better yet back up his claims by meeting with eagle claw practioners in a freindly humble manner

Right in the first post of this thread, Marcus had mentioned one Yeong Khuen Chi Sifu. So there is at least one Eagle Claw master that my Sifu knows and who can substantiate these comments.

I also suggest that as I am sure that many of the members here have been busy looking for eagle claw on youtube, do not any of you notice disparity between the videos shown by WahNam and eagle claw on youtube. A huge difference in body mechanics etc.

That is nothing surprising. People say the same of Wahnam Taijiquan. People who practice Yang-style Taijiquan usually have the same kind of comments - too hard, not flowing, stances too low, etc. But they say the same of Chen-style Taijiquan. I practice all three styles, and I can declare from experience that all of them can exhibit and manifest the real essence of Taijiquan, if the practitioner knows how.

I don't know what are the disparities that you refer to, but as you have chosen not to comment, we can only speculate. But there are and will be other Eagle Claw practitioners giving their constructive comments (including criticisms) on these sequences, and we will gladly learn from their feedback (if they are willing to share). But it appears to me that there will be none from you.

If as being suggested here that the Wahnam association is for the first time reveleaing hidden secrets of eagle claw, why is the eagle claw community at large not banging on the door begging to learn.

You would probably agree that many Eagle Claw practitioners do not know the essence of Eagle Claw. Perhaps you are taking issue with the fact that Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit, who is not from an Eagle Claw family is revealing these combat applications to the public? One of our aims is to preserve genuine Chinese martial arts in the world, and to prevent their seemingly inexorable slide into demonstrative and decorative forms. This course is another step to achieve this aim.

If you were to point out that genuine Eagle Claw practitioners in Eagle Claw families continue to exist and will preserve the art, I would agree with you, in the same way there are small pockets of Taijiquan / Baguazhang / Southern Shaolin communities who practise their arts as it was traditionally taught and practised.

But modern society's lifestyles make this a very precarious situation. Unless these practitioners are hermits living off the land, they have busy work-lives and other distractions. Also, with each passing generation, it is harder and harder to find successors to these exclusive arts. Many people will just not be bothered to train in these arts diligently enough to become masters.

For this reason, we in Shaolin Wahnam believe it is wise to reveal kungfu secrets, methods and applications to the public and to increase awareness and interest in the traditionally exclusive arts so that there will be a larger pool of potential practitioners to carry on the arts. This is better than to depend on a tiny number of disciples or family members who may not practice seriously or diligently enough. In fact, the Shaolin Temple and Wudang Mountain succeeded so well in passing down their arts through centuries precisely because they did not limit their students to close family disciples, but had a vast pool of students from which the best were chosen into the inner chambers.

Many have made derogatory comments regarding Wong Kiew Kit and Wahnam, only to be banned from the forum and silenced where possible, yet suggestions like we "Wahnam" are a font of martial knowledge are to be accepted by the martial arts community at large.

There are good reasons why those people were banned, primarily due to their lack of manners, not their different views.

I suggest a little restraint is shown out of common courtesy and respect for other practioners be shown by Wong Kiew Kit, as I have done by not making comments as to the eagle claw I have seen demonstrated by Wong Kiew Kit. I still choose to not make comments on the video's or applications shown, as it would show poor Mo Duk to do so.

Giving constructive feedback (as opposed to making personal attacks) is not poor Mo Duk (I suppose you mean 武德 - sorry, I am not a Cantonese speaker). Maybe you should also re-examine your own posts to see if they really exhibit Mo Duk, or are you merely paying lip service to it.

[Matt F.]

To state that absolute novices with no training or experience in eagle claw at all "probably know more of eagle claw than practitioners of eagle claw themselves", and the follow up with "This is not a slight on Eagle Claw practitioners." is shockingly arrogant.

Wong Ying,

In line with your understanding of Eagle Claw, were James and I incorrect? What does your experience see in the first movements? Why is it important to Eagle Claw?

-Matt

[Marcus]

Firstly I’d like to thank Wuji for his thorough reply to WongYing. And Matt asks a really good question that I hope WongYing will answer.

WongYing (is this your real name?):

Whilst I enjoy a friendly discussion about different views. I am concerned that the conversation with you is disintegrating into a pointless waste of time. I had seriously hoped that you would bring your experience of Eagle Claw to the table and everyone here on the forum could enjoy the exchange.

My friend and colleague Wuji has dealt with a number of the very disappointing accusations you make about what my Sifu has said. My main concern with your post is that you seem to be deliberately trying to start ill feelings between Shaolin Wahnam and Eagle Claw Kung Fu schools. Is this your intention? Are you (as Wuji wrote) “Borrowing a knife to murder”?

There is no ill feeling, indeed it is because of Sifu’s great respect for Eagle Claw Kung Fu that he is teaching it at Summer Camp 2009 so that Wahnam students and instructors can have the opportunity to learn more about it.

You also wrote:

“I mentioned in an earlier post, how when and where have these claims been qualified. I see no mention anywhere of Wong Kiew Kit meeting, visiting crossing friendly hands with any eagle claw practitioner to be able to substantiate these comments.”

We don’t have to justify what we say to you. If I may be blunt, you are a nobody without a real name. If you wish to cross hands with any of our students, please state your real name and post a photo of yourself, and we shall consider whether to accept your invitation to cross-hands. (Please note that this statement applies to WongYing and not to other Eagle Claw practitioners or persons.) Nevertheless, the final decision will rest with our school. But based on past experiences, you can be sure that there are many students ready to cross hands with you.

I write this because it is too easy for people to cause trouble on the internet whilst remaining anonymous.

You also wrote:

“Better yet back up his claims by meeting with eagle claw practitioners in a friendly humble manner.”

For the benefit of other forum members who might be interested to know Sifu has met many Eagle Claw practitioners in friendly discussions and sparring. His sidai, Sifu Yeong Khuen Chi, is an Eagle Claw master from the famous Chen Tzi Ching and Lau Fatt Mang lineage. His cousins, the late Sifu Wong Kam Luin and Sifu Wong Kam Chu, were also Eagle Claw masters.

Though, I think this might be my favourite quote of yours:

“Many have made derogatory comments regarding Wong Kiew Kit and Wahnam, only to be banned from the forum and silenced where possible, yet suggestions like we "Wahnam" are a font of martial knowledge are to be accepted by the martial arts community at large.”

WongYing – I challenge you to find a single, serious quote from any Shaolin Wahnam student or Instructor that suggests we are the font of all martial knowledge and must be accepted by the martial arts community at large.

If you want to be taken seriously please stick to facts and stop saying what we have not said. Please be more responsible in your writing. You brought up the term Mo Duk – martial art morality – and yet your writing clearly abuses it. My guess (and I am happy for you to prove me wrong) is that you know nothing about Eagle Claw combat application.

This is the important bit:

I have uploaded Combat Sequence 2 (Lift Strike) to Youtube and will ask Jordan to post a link here on the forum once it is on the Summer Camp website. Please prove me wrong about your application knowledge by showing me some combat applications of this 2nd sequence. Youtube is very easy to use and I would love to see your understanding of Lift Strike. Or perhaps if you are unable to upload a video to Youtube you could make a post here about the combat applications of Sequence 2 that you know.

Otherwise, it will be reasonable for members of this forum to conclude that yours are just empty words.

Regards

Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Jordan]

Update:

Combat sequence 2 has been added to the site. You can view it here...

I have placed all the videos for combat sequence 1 on its own page which you can view here...

Best Regards,

Jordan