What is genuine, traditional Taijiquan?

[Chiahua]

A common thread I've seen in several respondants is the assumption that higher stances = more combat practical. Why did the masters of old decide to create "small frame" style taijiquan? One theory was that large frame taijiquan (like the old 108 set) was used purely for pedagogical purposes, while the small frames were for combat...

[yeniseri]

large or small, what can it do?

sunyata,
I do not believe 'small frame' or 'large frame' was created by a specific master.
Primarily, for me, frame is a matter of body size while saying that when lerning postures, larger movements serve as training and familiarity until one get the essence of the movements and said movements adapts to the size of the person. when push comes to shove, small or large may not even matter!

I cannot see Sun Lutang expressing his form a la Chengfu!

Antonius,
my teacher's uncle from Hong Kong did push hands with me and he was able to push me and there was nothing I could do! I would push and he would empty and I was all over the place (being thrown or qi'na being applied).
Intellectually I understand what is going on but to repeat that feat appears impossible for me so at times I say it is a 'lost skill'. I have some modicum of skill but I nowhere approach that level.

"Lost skill" in retrospect is that whereevr and whenevr I go to tournaments and similar expositions, I rarely see that level of skill as people end up pushing and pulling like rams locking horns. My sensibilities do not see the power in tuishou (as example) because power is not what it is about!
I would say that I was stronger than my teacher's uncle (lift more, push furhter, wrestle, box, proficeint with firearms (.45, M60, m16, Dragunov), run 3 miles in 16 min, do 45 pullups in 1 min-ExMarine) but here I was being adroitly pushed around like a little boy!

I hope to take advantage of Sifu's classes one day. thanks

[Mark Blohm]

I hope to take advantage of Sifu's classes one day. thanks

I hope you do. It will certainly change your opinions on the matter.

Mark

[Robin]

Small vs Big, Women vs Man

Hi Yeniseri,



I have managed to get some photos to illustrate your mis-conception regarding size, weight, age and sex in internal arts.



Your general view that a bigger-sized, heavier, younger person would beat a smaller-sized, lighter and older person is actually common. And with due respect to our fairer sex, most people think a man would beat a woman. All these factors are based on muscular strength.



But for those trained in genuine internal arts, size, weight, age and sex are not decisive factors in combat. Indeed, anyone who doubts this reveals his lack of exposure to genuine, internal arts.



My Sifu (Sifu Wong) is smaller-sized and older than most of his students, yet he can beat them in combat easily. The first three photos show Sifu easily throws Andy, whom he calls a giant, using the Taijiquan pattern “Carry Tiger Back to Mountain”. These photos were extracted from a video recording the recent Intensive Taijiquan Course in January in Malaysia where I was also present.



The next four photos, also extracted from a video recording, show Anton, another giant, pinning Emiko to the ground with a Wrestling hold. Emiko uses the Shaolin pattern, “Carb Turns Body”, to throw Anton over. Emiko was jubilant. Beating other stronger and bigger-sized opponents is not a problem for her. But beating Anton, a powerful and experienced kungfu master, is a remarkable feat. The last photo shows the relative sizes of Emiko and Anton. The video was taken at the Advanced Combined Shaolin and Taijiquan Course in 2004 in Malaysia where I was also present.

As you mentioned before I suppose I have been lucky, because on several occasions I have seen women defeat men (or put in very good performances) while sparring or pushing hands, using not muscular strength but internal force. As I mentioned seeing Sifu Emiko was one occasion, but also in China I witnessed a young female Kung-fu master (I-chuan) push strong men about 15feet backwards with great speed and force. It was obvious to me that the force was internal. Recently in Scotland I also witnessed Si Heng Kai's student Ann sparring much bigger opponents (all male) with little problem.

[Robin]

Sifu Emiko

Pictures of Sifu Emiko and Sifu Anton

[Maxime]

I hope to take advantage of Sifu's classes one day. thanks

Dear Yeniseri,

I wish from the heart that you will

I am sure it would be a life changing experience, like I use to call every meeting with Sifu.

Kind regards,

Maxime

[yeniseri]

thanks everyone

Thanks everyone

[Darryl]

I love the pics of Emiko countering Anton - maybe a little bit of joy there .. just a scrap

[Charles David]

Restoring the Glory of Kung Fu

Wonderful pictures indeed.

It reminds me of something that Sifu once wrote (and I paraphrase): when a small woman can defeat a hulking man in combat, then we know that our arts have come alive again.


I also like the pictures of Sifu battling the giant!

Still,

[KungFuJoe]

Tai Chi Chuan does have flying knees. Look out for them!

[Robin]

Dear Bagaumonk1

Hi Baguamonk1,



I hope you would not mind me asking you whether you understood what you read in this thread?,
and whether you understood what you yourself were writing?.
If you are serious about taking part in our forum and benefiting from it, instead of coming in as a forum troll, you would benefit much by considering the above two questions. You may be annoyed at what I am going to write, but actually it is meant to help you improve your mental clarity.



I am sorry I can’t afford the time and space here to elaborate on the many points in your previous post to show your lack of mental clarity. I shall mention only your main point, hoping that this may help you.



Quote:

“Again you missed the point. Katain did not say BJJ, or a flying knee IS taiji, he said he can still be using the TAIJI principles while doing these things....”





If you re-read the thread carefully, you may realize it is you yourself who have missed not just the point in questions but many other points. In this particular point, the issue is not we saying that Kaitain said BJJ or a flying knee was Taijiquan. For example, if John performs BJJ, or Smith performs a flying kick, Kaitain would not call them Taijiquan. Kaitain would probably call them BJJ and a flying kick.



The issue is that when Kaitain performs BJJ or flying kicks, he calls them Taijiquan. His reason is that he uses Taijiquan principles in BJJ and flying kicks.



My points are:



(1) Irrespective of whether Kaitian applied Taijiquan principles in his BJJ or flying kicks, they are still BJJ and flying kicks, and not Taijiquan.

(2) Kaitain’s writings and videos did not reveal that he applied Taijiquan principles. In fact it was the reverse. It revealed his lack of understanding both Taijiquan principles and practice.





Relating what I have explained above to the following quotations may help you to improve your mental clarity.



I said,

“While form is not everything in genuine, traditional Taijiquan, it is still very important. It is the visual aspect, and often called the “body” of the art. Just as your physical body is not everything you are (your mind and how you conduct yourself are also important parts of your personality), it is usually by the appearance of your physical body that you are known.”



I also said,

“In an earlier post Kaitain said that forms were not important, it was the principles that made his art Taijiquan”



I quoted Kaitain saying,

“I can perform a sprawl and still be doing taijiquan. Hell, I can do a flying knee and still be doing taijiquan.”



I concluded, using a cow and a horse for comparison,

“Kaitain may point to a cow and say that it is a horse, but we don’t, we say it is a cow. Kaitain performs grappling, BJJ and sub-wrestling and calls them Taijiquan, but we don’t, we call them grappling, BJJ and sub-wrestling.”



I further used the comparison of a cow and a horse to highlight that Kaitain actually did not use Taijiquan principles in his BJJ and sub-wrestling:

“Kaitain may say that although its appearance is a cow but if it performs the functions of a horse, he calls it a horse. But the fact is that Kaitain’s cow does not perform the functions of a horse. His grappling, BJJ and sub-wrestling techniques use grappling, BJJ and sub-wrestling principles, and not Taijiquan principles.”



I added that:

“In fact it would be unwise to apply Taijiquan principles in grappling, BJJ and sub-wrestling techniques or vice versa. Kaitain probably does not realize that Taijiquan principles, or principles of any art for that matter, are derived from the actual application of Taijiquan techniques in combat. From their actual fighting using Taijiquan techniques over many centuries, generations of Taijiquan masters generalized the essence into Taijiquan principles.”



In case you find the above quotation too sophisticated for you to understand, a relevant point is that techniques came first, principles came later. What Kaitain said, but did not carry out, was to have (Taijiquan) principles first, then (BJJ or flying kicks) techniques come later.



Kaitain did not, or could not, carry out what he said because he was ignorance of Taijiquan principles. Had he applied Taijiquan principles to BJJ or flying kicks, he would find it disadvantageous. In the same way, if you apply football principles to playing basketball, it would be disadvantageous. Logically BJJ, flying kicks, Taijiquan, football and basketball work best in their own principles.



Sifu Andrew and MoMoJuice also have given you some excellent points, from which you may benefit much if you read their threads carefully.



But honestly, with you making such statements like the one below on Shaolin Wahnam in another public forum, I doubt you would be humble enough to benefit from our forum.



“remember I had a similar McDojo teacher once who was very similar in terms of skill and "shaolin" knowledge. I thought he was the baddest man. Especially in Taiji, but now I realize, not much more than your typical McDojo "master."



But if other forum members, especially Shaolin Wahnam students, could benefit from my explanation above, not merely on Taijiquan principles but on how to improve mental clarity, my effort would have been richly rewarded.



I would like to conclude this post by sharing with Shaolin Wahnam students as well as other forum members some advice Sifu (Sifu Wong) has given us. Our forum is a place not just to improve our arts, but also to improve our mental clarity in understanding what others have written and in presenting our points clearly and coherently.

[Robin]

Boxing is boxing, Taijiquan is Taijiquan!

If you practice Karate, you would use Karate for combat. If you practice Taekwondo, you would use Taekwondo for combat. This is only logical.

Many people practice kungfu, but they use Boxing and Kick-Boxing for combat. Why? The answer is straight-forward, although they may not admit it. It is because they do not know how to use kungfu for combat.

Kaitain claims to practice Taijiquan, but he uses Boxing and Wrestling for combat. Why? The answer is straight-forward, although he may not admit it. It is because he does not know how to use Taijiquan for combat.

Worse, he insults generations of Taijiquan masters by suggesting that they too did not know Taijiquan for combat. He tries to be smarter than them by proclaiming in an authoritative manner that Taijiquan techniques are useless in combat. He advocates using Boxing stances instead of Taijiquan stances, and Wrestling techniques like the sprawl instead of Taijiquan techniques.

If Kaitain is ignorant of Taijiquan combat application, and admits it, we would have much respect for him. If he keeps quiet but uses Boxing and Wrestling combat techniques, that is his prerogative. But comes to our forum and arrogantly tells our students that our grandmaster does not know Taijiquan, that his internal force is not internal force, that his combat application are useless, and that all of us are fools without exposure to other martial arts so as to compare how combat ineffective our arts are. Hence, we are duty-bound to right wrongs.

In contrast Wahnam Taijiquan practitioners use Wahnam Taijiquan techniques for combat. We believe in and are grateful for the combat applications generations of Taijiquan masters have bequeathed to us. I have checked with my Sifu, and he has told me that although he has made some modifications to meet expediencies, the Taijiquan combat applications we use are not his inventions, but are part of the legacy passed down to us by past Taijiquan masters.

For example, if Kaitain were to attack me or any Wahnam Taijiquan practitioner with a shoot, we would not use a sprawl as advocated by Kaitain in his version of Taijiquan. We would use a pattern like “Green Dragon Shoots Pearl”, striking his head with our palm, or “Low Stance Punch”, striking his head with a fist. We have no doubt that these techniques are effective. But the question is whether we have the skills to carry them out. But, honestly, our real concern is that if we have the skill to hit Kaitain on his head, we may kill him, which we certainly would not want to do despite his arrogant declaration that Shaolin Wahnam strikes would be ineffective on him, and also despite his assurance to sign a disclaimer for us. So we would have to modify the attack to his shoulder instead.

From what we have read from Taijiquan classics, we believe that the combat applications we use are closer to genuine, traditional Taijiquan than Kaitain’s sprawl. Wouldn’t you agree too?

[HugoDarien]

What is genuine, traditional Taijiquan?

From what we have read from Taijiquan classics, we believe that the combat applications we use are closer to genuine, traditional Taijiquan than Kaitain’s sprawl. Wouldn’t you agree too?

I agreed! Thanks for your post, Sifu: Robin!
Regards ~

Hugo

[Robin]

The Benefits Students Get from Kaitain’s Taijiquan and from Wahnam Taijiquan

There are many benefits from practicing genuine, traditional Taijiquan.

As genuine, traditional Taijiquan is an internal martial art, the two most fundamental benefits are that we can use it to defend ourselves, and that the internal force of Taijiquan gives us good health. Genuine, traditional Taijiquan also gives us mental clarity and spiritual cultivation.

Let us now look at how Kaitain’s Taijiquan and Wahnam Taijiquan relate to these benefits, and hence which is closer to genuine, traditional Taijiquan.

Kaitain publicly declares that Taijiquan techniques cannot be used for fighting; the purpose of practicing them is to learn certain principles (although his posts and writings do not reveal Taijiquan principles, as I have explained in an earlier post). Kaitain has to use techniques from other arts, like Boxing and Wrestling. Therefore, Kaitain has not benefited from using Taijiquan for combat.

In contrast, we use Wahnam Taijiquan, and not Boxing or Wrestling, for combat. Combat application is an essential aspect of Wahnam Taijiquan training. You can find a lot of Taijiquan combat applications in our Shaolin Wahnam webpages. Hence we have benefited from our Taijiquan training in that we can use what we practice to defend ourselves.

Kaitain does not believe in chi flow and internal force. Therefore, he uses muscular power. Muscular power is possible when one tenses his muscles. Tensing muscles results in blockages, and blockages lead to poor health.

In contrast, the forte of Wahnam Taijiquan is internal force. Internal force. Internal force is generated from chi flow. Harmonious chi flow results in good health.

In Kaitain’s Taijiquan, students punch and kick one another in sparring. Kaitain says that if one does not really punch and kick his sparring partner, how he could know them to be effective. Hence, being punched and kicked is routine in Kaitain’s Taijiquan training.

In Wahnam Taijiquan, students hold their attacks an inch or two from target. Getting punched or kicked very rarely happens in Wahnam Taijiquan training. We know that with internal force our palm strike to an opponent’s solar plexus or a finger jab through his throat can be destructive without having to try them out on real persons. In fact, it is precisely we know what damage internal force can cause that we do want to try them on real persons even with protective paddings.

We also believe that the way we spar now is similar to what practitioners of genuine, traditional Taijiquan as well as of other kungfu styles did in the past. They stopped their attacks just before target, known in Chinese as “tim tou wei tzi” They did not really punched and kicked their sparring partners.

One’s mental clarity can be deduced from how and what he writes. In other words, by comparing how and what Kaitain have written in the forum, and how and what Wahnam Taijiquan practitioners have written, forum members can have a good idea of their mental clarity or its lack. I shall leave this judgment to forum members.

Nevertheless, I would mention a point that really strikes me. Kaitain has stated that he is ready to show what he can do to anyone interested. I wonder whether Kaitain knows that in kungfu culture, “showing what one can do” means issuing an open challenge. Different people may form different opinions, but in my opinion, issuing an open challenge to anyone interested is not a wise thing to do. Being unwise is not a good indication of mental clarity.

Similarly, one’s spiritual development can be seen in how and what he writes too. I would also leave the comparison of the kind of spiritual development students can get from Kaitain’s Taijiquan and from Wahnam Taijiquan to the forum members’ judgment.

But again, I would like to mention another point that strikes me. I have a clear impression from reading Kaitain’s posts, particularly his very first post, that Kaitain seems proud to hurt his own students. Again different people will have different opinions and values, but in my opinion and according to the values we hold in Shaolin Wahnam, hurting one’s own student does not tell favorably on his spiritual development. For us, it is unthinkable to hurt our students or brothers and sisters in sparring or in real life.

[yeniseri]

fighting is animal style; no tai ji pajama movie gracefulness

Robin,

All your points are excellent but I have nevr been graceful in any encounter and hope I will never be when confronted with street thugs because that is their modus operandi. Chi or internal force does not work in this scanario but it does work with cooperative students in a school setting. Nothing is wrong with that becaue people like it so!

Harmonious chi has no place in the street because ultimately the other has a weapon. I personally will not be there or I will run like hell but I cannot outrun a bullit. The only harmonious signal is my feet and my mind working together to get me out of dodge! as they say.

I acknowledge Wahnam Taijiquan is the best but just stating my view.
I do acknowledge that real taijiquan gives one clarity and mental cultivation!