Breathing methods and control in Taijiquan

[Sifu Stier]

Internal Applications in Combat!

Mr. Segal:

You presented an excellent description of the 'external' applications of the Tai-Chi-Chuan Form Postures you employed in your examples, but made no mention of how the breath is employed in these applications, or not employed specifically, and in either case, why? What part does the breath play, if any in your opinion, in contributing to the efficiency of the techniques? Please elaborate on the 'unseen' part of these applications, using the same two Form examples, if you would. Thank you!

[Andrew]

Sifu Stier,

Interestingly, the post I quote below is probably the clearest you have written to date - a welcome contrast to the confused and confusing writings you have otherwise provided.

Show us some of YOUR quality material! All I can remember reading from you is confusion and critical commentary. Is that all you have to offer? Please share from YOUR experience in training. I would very much like to read what YOU have to offer as a teacher.

What do you wish to teach me? How do you propose to benefit me? What can you add to what I already may know? Please assume nothing regarding my knowledge base. Teach me as you would the beginner's in your class! Tell me what to do, and how to do it, so that I might receive the same benefits that you have received! I anxiously await your instruction.

I now have some time to address your request point by point.

Show us some of YOUR quality material!

In Shaolin Wahnam we are trained to teach according to our students' level. Despite you not being one of my students I will give you my quality teaching in direct response to your request.

How do you propose to benefit me?

If you care to listen, you will find the teaching very beneficial. All you need to do is to follow my advice as best as you can.

What can you add to what I already may know?

You may know a lot already, but it is obvious that you lack clarity in both your thinking as well as your presentation. This is precisely what I can add to what you already may know.

Please assume nothing regarding my knowledge base. Teach me as you would the beginner's in your class!

As mentioned above, we in Shaolin Wahnam teach according to the students’ (or in this case the seekers') level. Therefore I would not teach you as a beginner; I would teach you as a grand master seeking my advice.

Tell me what to do, and how to do it, so that I might receive the same benefits that you have received!

The first step is to define your problem. Your problem is lack of clarity. This lack of clarity concerns both your purpose for writing as well as the way you present your material.

This lack of clear purpose is evident in this thread as well as in the thread regarding Zen and Tao. In this thread, the clearly stated purpose is to discuss breathing techniques and control in Taijiquan. Despite your numerous posts you have hardly mentioned any breathing methods and control. All your on-topic posts here can be summed up in a single sentence – “breathe naturally and you will get maximum benefits”.

Let’s compare, for example, with Jeffrey’s posts. Jeffrey is clear in his purpose. He clearly explains that by employing various breathing techniques and gently storing energy at the Dan Tian, one can have more energy after performing a set or even after vigorous sparring than beforehand.

Also compare your posts with Anthony's in the mentioned Zen/Tao thread. Despite writing a lot, we and possibly even you, do not actually know what you have been saying. Despite numerous requests, you failed to provide any evidence to substantiate your claim that Zen was an off-shoot of Taoism. On the other hand, Anthony clearly explains that Zen and Taoism are distinct disciplines, giving evidence concerning their different history, philosophy, meditation techniques and language used.


Having defined your problem, the next logical step is to rectify it. In this thread, for example, give specific examples of breathing techniques and control you use in your Taijiquan training, instead of giving general statements which use a lot of words but actually say nothing. You yourself must be clear of what you want to say. Only then can you present your material clearly.

I anxiously await your instruction.

If you follow my instruction as keenly as you anxiously await it, you would receive the same benefits that I have received. If there is anything that you are still unclear of, please do not hesitate to ask me either here in this forum (probably best in a new thread to avoid this one veering off-topic again) or by the other means the forum provides.

Andrew

[Sifu Stier]

That's it?

Andrew...Andrew!

What a disappointment! You should have quit while you were ahead! I realize now that your last response to me, #36, which I thought was a beautiful Zen-like reply was merely an 'accidental greatness', not an intended one. And I was so impressed with you after seeing only that little 'smiley' face, but you have now taught me that it was an illusion only, as probably most things are.....if we take the Buddha's teaching to heart, an illusion blown out of the water by another rude post in which you "use alot of words, but actually say nothing" with any clarity...as usual! You need more Forms and more Chi-Kung, so take another really deep breath, hold it and center it, hold it.....hold it.....hold it........then slowly release it when you finally have something nice to say!

[Andrew]

Ask for apples and that's what you'll get.

....another rude post in which you "use alot of words, but actually say nothing" with any clarity...

I suggest you read your own very clear request for my instruction as well as my response again. The instruction I offer is aimed at helping you and in direct response to your own specific request. And as I wrote

If there is anything that you are still unclear of, please do not hesitate to ask me

You asked for "A" and received "A" .... "A" being my instruction in this case.

If you do not want "A" then please don't ask for "A". That is a display of confusion / confusing.

Would you go to a grocer and ask for apples when you wanted oranges?


Now please consider your posting style and content again and also stay on topic as has been repeatedly requested ....

In this thread, for example, give specific examples of breathing techniques and control you use in your Taijiquan training, instead of giving general statements

Andrew

[Jeffrey Segal]

Keeping up with the thread

Good Morning Sifu Stier,

I have quite a few responses to your post#46. For clarity's sake I'll stick to one basic theme per post.

Originally Posted by Sifu Stier
You presented an excellent description of the 'external' applications of the Tai-Chi-Chuan Form Postures you employed in your examples, but made no mention of how the breath is employed in these applications, or not employed specifically, and in either case, why? What part does the breath play, if any in your opinion, in contributing to the efficiency of the techniques? Please elaborate on the 'unseen' part of these applications, using the same two Form examples, if you would. Thank you!

The topic of this thread is breathing methods and control in Taijiquan. I spent some time explaining the basic philosophy of breathing methods in Wahnam Taijiquan in posts 19 and 26. I talked about Platinum Card Kungfu for the first time in post 15 and I was even under the impression that you had at least grasped some of its more obvious manifestations.

I don’t normally like to quote myself but I think that you’ll find that I have already answered your questions:

"Turning now to the advanced practitioner, she may perform her Taijiquan using Reverse Breathing, other types of breathing or a combination of different types of breathing. We don't limit ourselves and in fact, in most cases we don't worry about our breathing. We breathe spontaneously."

"When an advanced practitioner of Wahnam Taijiquan breathes spontaneously whether it is in solo set practice, sparring or actual fighting, they use a wide variety of breathing techniques according to the requirements of the situation."

[Jeffrey Segal]

the value of direct experience

Originally Posted by Sifu Stier
You presented an excellent description of the 'external' applications of the Tai-Chi-Chuan Form Postures you employed in your examples, but made no mention of how the breath is employed in these applications, or not employed specifically, and in either case, why? What part does the breath play, if any in your opinion, in contributing to the efficiency of the techniques? Please elaborate on the 'unseen' part of these applications, using the same two Form examples, if you would. Thank you!

On another level, It’s interesting that you only see “external” applications in my description. It is my humble opinion that anyone who has tried these techniques using Taijiquan knows that the 3 internal harmonies (Jing, Qi and Shen) are just as important to their successful application as the 3 external harmonies (Legs, Body and Arms). Also, an essential pre-requisite for their use is having cultivated sufficient internal force and being able to manifest it as required. It reminded me of what Sifu often says:


Those who have no experience of chi or internal force, including many who have been teaching chi kung and martial arts for years, frequently ask what chi or internal force is. Those who have direct experience will not ask such questions. They know from direct experience.

Similarly, a practitioner who has experience effectively applying the Taijiquan techniques that I described in post 45 in sparring or fighting would not ask how the breath is employed in these applications, or not employed specifically, and why. They would simply execute the techniques as well as all other aspects of combat, including breathing methods and control, spontaneously. There is no time to consider which physical or breathing techniques to use, instead of responding spontaneously and correctly.

[Jeffrey Segal]

keeping to the topic and staying on track

In post#45 “Using your Opponent’s Energy” which prompted you to write post#46, I specifically mentioned that I would focus on the other part of the topic, i.e. the control element of our discussion. To get things going I used a point mentioned by Wuji who had specifically directed the comment to you. You are yet to respond to either Wuji or me and it appears that you have lost track of that too, Sifu Stier. If your response to the numerous requests made of you here (and elsewhere on the forum) are anything to go by, you seem to be unclear about the questions members of the forum ask you.

I was quite serious when I said

Then it struck me how lucky I am, or perhaps we the readers of this forum are, as this gives us a rare opportunity to compare and contrast the teachings of two grandmasters on the same topics

and I believe that I was quite clear on my reasons for contributing to this thread.

I still have much to learn and experience in Taijiquan, but I believe that what I have learnt and experienced during the 5 or so years that I have been training under Sifu Wong is sufficient for me, at least for the purpose at hand, to present our Shaolin Wahnam views on “Breathing Techniques and Control in Taijiquan”. I would welcome Sifu Stier and other experts, as well as my Shaolin Wahnam brothers and sisters, to correct me if I am wrong. But I would like to express right at the start that whoever gives advice or comments in this thread must not expect others to accept them without question or debate, but it should be carried out in a friendly and courteous manner.

You come to us offering great gifts saying that you have nothing to offer but your assets. Many people here would love nothing more than for you to tell us about breathing and control in Taijiquan as it is practiced in Shen Men Tao but you seem more intent on playing games and disrupting the natural flow of this thread.

If you prefer not to tell us, for whatever reason, we understand. Please understand for your part that we ask you to refrain from straying off-topic by making irrelevant and in some cases totally inappropriate comments like

Only those who read these posts can say whether they grasp the content of anyone's writing. Hopefully, an atmosphere of open exchange can be maintained which will allow questions from those who need clarification. I agree totally that any and all aspects of the topic at hand are worthy of discussion, and that such discussion will be particularly beneficial to those who have little or no previous experience or are not yet expert in their practice.

and

Show us some of YOUR quality material! All I can remember reading from you is confusion and critical commentary. Is that all you have to offer? Please share from YOUR experience in training. I would very much like to read what YOU have to offer as a teacher.

and

A thousand pardons for inadvertently repeating in my last little paragraph a bit of what was posted earlier in the thread. The remainder of my last post, however, I judged to be of potential value to those who have stated that they are new to these arts and inexperienced in practicing them. I understand that it may be 'old hat' to you and other more experienced and accomplished practitioners, but you were not the 'target' group for whom this information was posted! I have nothing to prove to you, Mr. Segal, or any of your associates, and have no need of your approval, so future demands that I should do so are not necessary.

Nevertheless, for your sake, I shall explain the breathing methods in these Taijiquan movements in my next post. I fully intend to continue realising my aims and objectives for this thread and I sincerely hope that we can stay on topic from now on.

Stay tuned, we’ll be back on breathing and control in Taijiquan very soon

[Jeffrey Segal]

breathing structures for combat applications

Greetings, Everybody!

My previous posts notwithstanding, it is of course useful to explain the breathing involved in the examples I gave earlier (post#45). It is, however, important to realise the philosophical explanation comes after direct experience and not before. I don’t think it can be overly stressed how essential direct experience is in internal arts. That’s why it is those practitioners who train regularly who gain the most from Sifu’s books, websites and even this discussion forum.

As I mentioned in post#26, a skillful practitioner has many breathing techniques at her disposal. There are many different possibilities for the two applications in question so I’ll mention just a few.

If either application occurs in isolation, i.e. if your opponent suddenly grips your arm or suddenly pushes you, you could use "in" as you follow your opponent's energy and "out" while performing Peng or using the Sweep to fell your opponent. At the conclusion, remember to gently “swallow” your qi to the Dantian. All this must be accomplished in a split second using Reverse Breathing, Abdominal Breathing, Small Universe Breathing or other breathing modes. An obvious variation would be using “explode” instead of “out”.

However, if these applications are part of a longer combat sequence, you would use different breathing structures. You may use "follow" for the application (again in both examples), and conclude with "in" if you wish to to continue with the combat sequence, or "swallow" if that ends the sequence.

I would still love to hear about any of our members' experiences using their opponent’s energy.

Enjoy your training

[Kaijet]

breathing expirience....

Hello all,

in my "few" expirience in Tai Chi Chuan I have done "my" normal Shaolinquan breathing. Meaning I didn´t learn any specific breathing method to practice for example sticky or pushing hands, whats for me the practical aspect of Taiqichuan.
Normal Shaolinquan breathing means for me nothing else as nature breathing without slowing down or force it or breath in a special way or in a special order or in a special part of the body.
Breathing in nature way is for me also a control over the breathing at all because everybody knows it is not easy to stay (breath relaxed) in a confrontation even its only "Pushing hands" or a hot discussion (you know what I mean). Mind is conected to the breathing.

Small Universe or Dantian Breathing has to be second nature to you before you can use it in combat,i.e. partner exersices, partner forms. In my point of view you have to learn it before you try to use it during Taichiquan, Shaolinquan,etc. If its become second nature to you, then you don´t have to think about anymore during any doings (work Taiqiquan, reading, writing etc.)
Breathing awarness during all what your are doing will help you stay with your nature breathing / baby breathing.

Once I make an exersice: Palm against sandbag (80kg)
I was using different kind of breathing during my palm strikes and on the end the most powerfull strike was during my so called normal/nature breathing.
Its only my expiriences maybe some others got different ones.

[Marcus]

Thankyou Jeffrey,

"Follow", or "sui" in Chinese, is a breathing technique where the exponent gently holds the breath but allow it to slip out naturally.

It's been a "niggle" in my Chi Kung teaching for some time attempting to explain the "follow" aspect in Pattern 8 - Nourishing Kidneys, to students. I think you may have finally ironed out this crease for me. Nice thread by the way I look forward to reading more.

Kind regards

Marcus



Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Sifu Stier]

Tai-Chi Chi-Kung

The Yang Chia Tai-Chi Chuan component of the Shen Men Tao System lists nine basic breathing methods which can be incorporated in the practices. Some of these methods are merely varying expressions of spontaneous, autonomous respiration, while others are deliberately regulated methods.

The nine methods are:
1) Natural Breath, i.e. the normal manner of breathing constantly used without giving any thought or attention to the process, with inhalation and exhalation fairly even and both normally done throught the nose.

2) Spontaneous Deep Natural Breath, i.e. the deeper than normal natural breath one takes automatically when stepping out of one's house or vehicle into Nature such as at the lakeshore or the scenic overlook in the mountains, with inhalation and exhalation again fairly even and done through the nose.

3) Tonic Breath, employing inhalation through the mouth and exhalation through the nose, and with a longer inhalation than exhalation, to improve blood circulation and increase overall energy.

4) Cleansing Breath, employing inhalation through the nose and exhalation through the mouth, with exhalation longer than inhalation, to relieve mental and physical tension or nervousness, such as spontaneous sighing for example, to cool the internal body when overheated from physical exercise or activity and to break fevers.

5) Bellows Breath, employing a series of several short, quick, 'sniffing' inhalations through the nose, perhaps 5-9 in total, followed by a long, audible, and more forceful than normal exhalation. This is usually considered a more elaborate variation of the Cleansing Breath, with similar benefits.

6) Alternating Breath, which is of several varieties including:
a) inhalation and exhalation both through the same nostril while
blocking the other nostril, and then repeating the process on the other side.
b) inhaling through one nostril and exhaling through the other nostril while simultaneously blocking the nostril not being used.
c) same as method b) but with a retention of the fully inhaled breath prior to exhalation.
d) same as method c) but with an additional retention of the breath after exhalation prior to inhaling again.
e) same as methods b) and c) but with specific 'counts' of the heartbeat for each phase of the method, at first even counts for all phases, and later with different counts for each phase according to the skill level and physical capability of the practitioner.

7) Long Abdominal Breath or Post-Natal/Later Heaven Breath, employing an expansion of the lower abdomen, perhaps followed by expansion of the chest as well when the lower part of the lungs have filled, and then contracting the lower abdomen with the exhalation, usually through the nose only, but there are variations as with the Alternate Breath methods.

8) Reverse Breath or Pre-Natal/Embryonic/Earlier Heaven Breath, employing a contraction of the lower abdomen while inhaling, followed by an expansion of the abdomen while exhaling. This method is often practiced with the Heng-Haah sounds, particularly during combative applications of Form techniques.

9) Tortoise Breath, which spontaneously develops after mastering the previous eight methods, and which can't easily be described in words, but has to be experienced to be understood, and so will not be elaborated upon here.

There are undoubtedly other variations of these methods employed by other Schools or Systems, but these represent a typical variety for Taoist Internal Soft Style Arts such as Tai-chi, Pa-kua, and Hsing-yi styles.

[YunXiang]

Dear Sifu Stier,

The breathing systems that you have listed sounded very familiar when I first read it. I shortly realised it's quite similiar to what I've read in Sifu Jou Tsung Hwa's book, "The Dao of Taijiquan: Way to Rejuvenation". Here's some exerts from his book (see pg. 138):

Cleansing breath. Inhaling through the nose and exhaling through the mouth. This kind of breathing emphasizes exhalation. Expelling the air takes longer than inhaling. The purpose of this type of breathing is to relax inner tension or to lower a fever. Sighing is a spontaneous manifestaion of the cleansing breath.

Tonic breath. Inhaling through the mouth and exhaling through the nose. This kind of breathing emphasizes inhalation, which is longer than exhalation. Through this method you can gain energy and improve blood circulation. Examples where tonic breathin tends to occur spontaneously are when you lift heavy weights and when you prepare to dive into a swimming pool.

Long breath or abdominal post-birth breath. The long breath is a form of abdominal breathing. When inhaling, the lower abdomen expands because of the air coming in; during exhalation the lower abdomen contracts.

It seems to me that the Shen Men Tao system is quite similiar to the system that is listed in Sifu Jou's book. Is there some significant link between the two systems?

Best Wishes,
Mike.

[Sifu Stier]

Dear Mike:

There is no direct connection between the late Master Jou's school and ours, but there probably are indirect similarities in many of the Tai-chi practices of our respective schools, especially in the use of common domain material such as the observation of the various ways in which human beings breathe. If I remember correctly, Master Jou was a student of Master Cheng Man-Ching, who in turn studied with Yang Cheng-Fu, so perhaps that's where the similarities come from since my Master learned the Yang Long Imperial Form Set from Cheng-Fu's father and older brother.

I know of several other schools or systems which also classify the different breath methods in the same or very similar way as the Shen Men Tao System does, and similar to Form name lists in different schools, with a smaller or larger number of breath methods listed. I wasn't really aware of the shared methodology and terminology 'cross-overs' until I began to participate in the Chinese martial art tournaments as a Competition Judge back in the late 1980's, since most of my previous close contacts were with other members of my own association only. Only after numerous contacts and conversations with Master's from all over the world at these events, and the inevitable style and school comparisons which take place, did I come to realize that there seems to be alot of 'common domain' material used by various schools with no other direct common denominators linking them, and oftentimes even when the individual styles of Tai-chi Chuan are different.

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hello Sifu Stier,

Thanks for posting some information on the various breathing methods to be found in the Yang Chia Tai-Chi Chuan component of the Shen Men Tao System.

No 6 seems very similar to some of the breathing techniques I used to practice under the guidance of my yoga teacher

I have some questions, which I hope you don't mind me asking.

I noticed that apart from the yoga style retention exercises in No 6, the breathing methods you describe seem to be more or less all of an in-out nature. Does Shen Men Tao also make use of breathing techniques such as "Follow" and "Swallow" as I have talked about them during this thread? (In Wahnam Taijiquan, using the "swallow" breathing technique is one of the reasons that we have more energy at the end of a training session than when we began)

Would you care to give some examples of breathing structures to be found in Shen Men Tao, i.e. combining different breathing techniques within the one in-out cycle, perhaps with an explanation of how you would apply these structures in a combat or form practice situation?


Do you also employ Dantian Breathing as part of your system?


Finally (for now ) I would love to hear about some of your personal experiences relating how the different breathing methods you have described feel, in particular energetically. The reason I ask is that sometimes we can learn a lot from hearing about the experiences of other practitioners. If you look around here on the forum, particularly in the Qigong section you'll find quite a few posts describing different members' experiences. Please feel free to ignore this request if you find it impertinent or out of place.

Thanks and I’m glad that we’ve managed to get this thread back on track.

Best regards,

[Sifu Stier]

Dear Si-Hing Segal:

Yes indeed. The more advanced breathing techniques you refer to are included in the final category of those listed in my previous post, namely the Tortoise Breath, and others such as the Mysterious Breath and the Primordial Breath. Due to the potential risk of injury in practicing these more difficult and advanced methods without the supervision of a competent teacher, my Master has requested that I not present them in a public media setting. I hope you will understand that I am therefore obligated to honor that request. If you or others wish to do so, I respectfully honor your right to accept the moral and ethical responsibility for your decision.

Insofar as subjective energetic sensations and experiences in practicing are concerned, my recollection of the earliest sensations is that I initially felt a quite dramatic increase in overall body temperature, particularly in the hands and feet which had always been cold and damp previously, and 'prickly-tingly' sensations in the fingers and around the ears, with occaisional shooting or streaming 'electrical' sensations and spontaneous vibrations in the muscles along the pathway of various meridian lines. Later, the heat, vibrations, and electrical sensations were felt everywhere, but especially in the lower abdomen at Tan-Tien, which would then 'spill-over' to rise up the spine and out into my arms and legs with much greater volume and intensity then before. At this point, I would often look quite noticably flushed-red all over after practicing, and would exude tremendous amounts of radiant heat from my body surfaces, especially the hands, and began to receive electrical shocks when contacting metal door knobs, eating utensils, tools, etc., and would oftentimes unintentionally discharge electrical shocks onto other people when touching them. All of the above and more have continued to date, but I am now able to modify and adjust the volume and intensity to the chi that manifests in my hands and fingers ranging from mild to medium and even for daily activities and healing work to sudden discharge of full volume for martial applications.