How can i phrase this i really want to know !

[Kin Tama]

Barrys , i think really its a mixture of all of those things you mentioned,

I wouldnt mind trying it sure, so im curious what its like i guess why not i'll try any martial art, I wouldnt go as far as to say that i would post up just for the sake of debate, i like to debate but not to hear the sound of my own voice so to speak.

Or maybe you are angry at what you percieve to be a low-level art passing itself off as a high-level art. Or maybe you see it is a low-level art and out of compassion want to help us to see that as well. Either way it is down to perceptions. Perceptions change when people percieve something differently. That is about an actual experience. I guess if you want to change perceptions here you would need to find a way of helping us to have this new perception experientially.

I think this is closer to what the truth is its a mixture between , i wouldnt say as far as "feeling sorry" or feeling compassionate, its just more of a case that i see so many people who really really enjoy what they are doing and in search of somethign and im trying to make them see a little further than what they are looking at.Also i guess its partly that i see people spending a lot of money too on something that could cost them less and have a teacher near them all the time not only once every so often.
Also I wouldnt go as far as to say im angry at a low level art passing itself off as a high level art but i could say i feel resentful because i expected something a lot more especially with all the "hype".

You also make a small point that i have received reasons why people chose this as a martial art and i could draw some conclusions, One thing that i have noticed is that most people have not had contact with an internal martial art before, or with a path of spirituality, who have joined shaolin wahnam. And like you said with the exception of sifu kai and a few others most of the other students have a very limited amount of training in other arts before joining.
So i think its more of a case when i say why do you do it that the answer could be "i found something that suited what i was searching for and i just stuck to it without digging around."
I think if we were to take 5-10 other schools and spread out shaolin wahnam students through them they would find the same things they are looking for elsewhere, its just that they so happened to land here first.

Andrew again you misunderstand me my point is i dont think sifu kai could use that sparring to win competitions he did before , i called the technique low in level i didnt call sifu kai low level.

Sure i wouldnt mind sending someone some video clips of me sparring so they can post them or even some of the points i try and describe to differentiate between a higher level or lower level technique.
I dont have any but if i can set it up with any other students/friends i'll grab a digital and send some stuff in whenever i can.

[barrys]

Kin,

Resentment is from the latin root 'to re-feel or re-experience' something. You seem disappointed. Maybe best not to go over and over this feeling but move on.

Very nice for you to be looking out for other people. I guess your comments have helped some people, me included, to understand why we practice with Sifu in the Shaolin Wahnam school.

In the end we all practice something, even if we aren't always sure that we are or what it is. The longer I practice things the better I get at them. Also I am reminded of a quote

Any path is only a path, and there is no affront, to oneself or others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you … Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself, and yourself alone, one question … Does this path have a heart? If it does the path is good; if it doesn’t it is of no use. (Carlos Castaneda, The Teachings of Don Juan,1970)

I guess people are telling you that for them this path has a heart ... and it is smiling.

All the best,

Barry

[Ray]

One thing that i have noticed is that most people have not had contact with an internal martial art before, or with a path of spirituality, who have joined shaolin wahnam. And like you said with the exception of sifu kai and a few others most of the other students have a very limited amount of training in other arts before joining.
So i think its more of a case when i say why do you do it that the answer could be "i found something that suited what i was searching for and i just stuck to it without digging around."
I think if we were to take 5-10 other schools and spread out shaolin wahnam students through them they would find the same things they are looking for elsewhere, its just that they so happened to land here first.

Dear Kin Tama,
That is quite a conclusion to make. My own personal conclusion was always that schools such as Shaolin Wahnam are actually very rare.

my point is i dont think sifu kai could use that sparring to win competitions he did before , i called the technique low in level

Maybe Sifu Kai should answer this one personally!

some of the points i try and describe to differentiate between a higher level or lower level technique.
I dont have any but if i can set it up with any other students/friends i'll grab a digital and send some stuff in whenever i can.

It would be very informative. That way all of us can get a better idea of where you are coming from. Actually I was wondering if you could tell us more about the school that you are currently studying with. I think that this would help us understand the reasoning behind your criticisms of the sparring video clips.

Be well!

Sincerely,
Divineshadow

[YunXiang]

Seeing the diamond and not the rough.

Greeting All!

I thank all the contributors of this discussion. It has been an education and interesting read. I'd like to also contribute to this thread if you don't mind.

Firstly, I'd like to share with you my perspective on the "Free Sparring between International Champions" video clip. This video is an excellent example of genuine Shaolin Kungfu sparring. It reminds me how fortunate I am to have received such teaching from my Sifu, Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit.

Here's a list of some of the benefits I've received from this video clip:

1. Free Sparring Without Rules or Equipment: There was no protective equipment used. There were no rules to restrict where and how to strike (i.e. anything goes). As you can see from the video clip, there were strikes to the head, eyes, and groin. Because of the high skill of the exponents, no one was injuried.
2. Use of Kungfu Techniques and Stance: There are a wide variety of kungfu techniques shown in this short clip (there are 10 techniques at least). In addition, it shows the importance and variety of stances in kungfu.
3. Internal Force and Energy Exchange: There is a considerable amount of energy and force exchanged between them. It is interesting to watch how each one of them receives the incoming energy and "flows" with it.
4. Clarity and State of Mind: Both exponents had no malice. There was no presence of intent to injury, maim, or kill during their exchange. Even if a stike lands, there is clarity of mind to not inflict injury onto the other.

These exponents, Sifu Kai and Sifu Emiko, are excellent martial artists. More importantly, they are persons of good hearts. Please keep this in mind.

Secondly, there is honesty within the clips on the "How Do Masters Spar?" webpage. They are not editted or choreographed video clips. All the strengths and weakness of the participants of these clips are open for all to see. There is something to be admired when someone is open and honest.

Thirdly, it has been interesting to see the perspectives on how people view these aforementioned video clips. If you seek benefit, you will most likely to receive it. If you seek flaws, you will most likely to receive it. I believe it is up to the individual what they seek.

Once again, thank you and I look forward to hearing some more discussion.

Best wishes,
Michael Chow

[Jose Antonio]

Quote:
One thing that i have noticed is that most people have not had contact with an internal martial art before, or with a path of spirituality, who have joined shaolin wahnam. And like you said with the exception of sifu kai and a few others most of the other students have a very limited amount of training in other arts before joining.
So i think its more of a case when i say why do you do it that the answer could be "i found something that suited what i was searching for and i just stuck to it without digging around."

Dear Tama:

I would very much like to share my experience with Sifu at martial arts. I am a Chi Kung instructor, not a martial artist.

I have searched a lot before finding Shaolin Wahnam, and I did found very good things when looking for spirituality and personal development, but when I found Shaolin Chi Kung, I have to say, they were much less effective. I mean, the effect on my everyday life was good but never as the one I found through Shaolin Chi Kung.

I did some martial arts in the past, but I never really advanced on that path. I liked a lot, but I just did not felt it mine. A month and a half ago, I took a Tai Chi Chuan course with Sifu. I have to tell you it was amazing. In five days, I learned much more that what I did in 3 months in my former school.
Nowadays, I am crazy with Tai Chi Chuan, I practive every day, I am feeling so well, i can tell I am developing internal force very fast, and fell so happy and in peace. I also can see how my techniques have improved, and I feel I could apply them to defend myself if needed.

I highly recommend you to take a course with Sifu so you can judge based on your own experience.

A big smile from the heart!

José Antonio

[Mark A]

Video's

Hi Folks,
Just a quick reply as I am in an internet cafe and I dont have much time. I would just like to thank everyone for posting.

Dear Tama,
I honestly think you are missing the point here, several people have attempted to explain about the video clips. They have also asked you to look beyond them. There has been explanations about what has been going on in the video clips.

I am now asking you bluntly to move beyond the video clips. As that is all they are, a mere moment in time.

You say that the video clips are a window into our art. Then you are only seeing a little bit of the room because the blinds are down

Again you seem to be focusing only on the combat aspects and not the whole system. You have seen Sifu's books then surely you must have some idea that there is a lot more going on.


Again the fighting aspect. In Shaolin Wahnam it is repeatedly told, if someone has better skills then they will defeat you. So we respect other arts in the fact that they do produce good fighter.s

Ok I am also thinking that you are trying to get a reaction from us and I wonder why.? You can tell a lot by peoples reactions and I am maybe thinking that you are trying to see if we have "fighters" spirit

Thanks Mark

[Andrew]

Andrew again you misunderstand me my point is i dont think sifu kai could use that sparring to win competitions he did before , i called the technique low in level i didnt call sifu kai low level.

Now I think we are getting somewhere. It would seem from this post that you have started to realise there is a big difference between techniques and skills. Even the simplest of techniques (such as a simple straight punch - Black Tiger Steals Heart in Shaolin Kung Fu) can beat all comers if the skill of the exponent is high enough. As you rightly say, Sifu Kai is of a very high level. He can indeed use simple techniques with devastating efficiency and skill.

Andrew

[qingui]

"So i think its more of a case when i say why do you do it that the answer could be "i found something that suited what i was searching for and i just stuck to it without digging around."
I think if we were to take 5-10 other schools and spread out shaolin wahnam students through them they would find the same things they are looking for elsewhere, its just that they so happened to land here first."

I understand that it may not be intentional but have you ever considered that your assumption is putting down on our intelligence as though we are a group of naive people who do not know how to make proper choice.

I for one do not rush into Wahnam. I don't wish to go into details but I have gone through a long process before finally taken up an intensive course with Sifu including
1) Assessing the soundness of the philosophy behind the system and compare with others by going through books by various authors
2) Examining the results of the system going through the various testimonies (some through the internet and some in person)
3) Observing Sifu conducting an intensive course and witness the students' response.
4) Practise on my own base on the book
5) Set my aims and objectives
6) Take the course

It took me almost 2 years before I took up the intensive course. At the graduation dinner where we shared our experience, I remember thanking Sifu for making me experiencing Qi flow but I reserved the comment on how it is going to affect me in long run. It is only after about one and half year of deligent practising later that I fully convince myself of its benefits and started to actively promoting it to others.

I believe all Wahnam students have gone through such a process either to a lesser or greater extent (I know of a student who arranges a personal interview with Sifu, validating some of his claims using other sources before deciding on taking up his teaching). It is unjust to assume that we all rush into improper decision whatever you may think of Wahnam's style.

[Jonny Say]

Dear Kin Tama,

Many of my Shaolin Brothers and Sisters are very experienced when it comes to both Spiritual practices and Martial Arts. When you look around the various pages on the forum and website this can be seen. Also out of respect for other styles sometimes previous teachers are not mentioned (sometimes they are).

I myself trained for around 8 years in various styles constantly searching for the path I was looking for. I had began studying a style of Kung Fu that claimed many things and after 5 years I realised I hadn't glimpsed any of them. I had also began searching for the spiritual aspects, also fruitlessly. I trained a couple of other styles of kung Fu, Tai chi, Japanese Styles, a couple of meditation schools and various other styles. All of them gave me more little tasters, but not quite the whole of what I was searching for.

Then a friend of mine said he'd started Shaolin Wahnam and suggested I went along. I was reluctant at first, as felt I was improving pretty well in another style, but went anyway.

Within one lesson I experienced everything I had been searching for namely energy flow and internal force, mind training/spiritual training, combat efficiency (I confess when I had a little spar with my teacher I tested him a little and realised I was clueless! ). All in two hours!

I was then lucky enough to train with Sigung on various occasions and each time my experiences and depth of understanding have shot up. This is why I train Shaolin Wahnam, because I feel it is what I personally was searching for.

I haven't trained another style since and I believe I am learning the best style suited for me. And I think these sentiments are echoed by many others, that it is the best style for us personally. Of course other schools will be more suited to other people, many paths for many humans.

I hope that answers the reasons I have chose to train Shaolin Wahnam.

[Kin Tama]

Phew is it just me or does it feel like im not being attacked any more and the atmosphere is not so tense.

Barrys yes now that you mention it, You are right i have been dissapointed in my first 5-6 years of training because i belonged to a school / organisation "that taught traditional techniques which were better than any other martial art for these :...... reasons " Unfortunately this wasnt the case, at that point i couldnt distinguish for myself. But as you said its all in the past.

your quote reminds me of a quote morihei ueshiba used to say which is very similar ( ueshiba was the founder of aikido and its worthwhile looking into his sayings for any martial artist of any style.)

"Though there are many paths at the foot of the mountain, all those who reach the top see the same moon."

Divine shadow , depending on which way you look at it schools like shaolin wahnam can be rare or not. I believe there maybe 5-10 million people world wide practising martial arts. Which sounds like a LOT of people but in comparison to the worlds population of 1.3 billion this isnt many people.
I think its the same with martial arts schools of a high level if you look for them you can find them anywhere. But for sure there are many that you would be worse off for signing up !

Yunxian i agree with the post you have made all these things ARE shown in the video clip. However i am merely saying i have seen these things many times over BUT i am doubting the usefullness of some of the specific techniques compared to other techniques.

I see you point out that

These exponents, Sifu Kai and Sifu Emiko, are excellent martial artists. More importantly, they are persons of good hearts. Please keep this in mind.

I too believe that it is more important to be a person with a good heart than anything else in martial arts.

Jose what you say is very interesting could you please make a direct comparison to other styles of chi kung or schools that you have followed.

I know that sifu wong opens the channels of his students in the seminar so what other people need a while to achieve he gives it to you immediately, but i am more curious as a comparison to other schools why you found it better.
One more question
If you went back and trained your chi kung patterns you learnt from the other school now that you are more advanced would you still find them lacking ?

I am very curious if you could please take the time to answer.

Mark A the reason i am concentrating very much on the martial aspect of wahnam school is because, i believe chi kung is very much a smaller part of the large school of spirituality, i believe that chi kung is good for health and for martial arts as a supplement , or as an art on its own, but compared to some branches of yoga it is merely the tip of the iceberg, so i cannot find enough points to compare chi kung with yoga so i focus on the martial aspect.
Also i lean towards the belief that if you practise chi kung only forhealth that is good but if you practise for martial arts your martial arts ability should be 100% as well as your chi kung. You shouldnt say i cant fight but i still enjoy doing this style because of the chi kung you should try 100% if you do martial arts. Other wise inner peace can be found in other ways.
Also Mark you mention that ive been exposed to more than just the fighting through books etc, yes this is right and the clips are just a window, but i view the clips as a sum total. Of shaolin Wahnam , I dont view them as a small part but a big aspect. Maybe because as i said before you practise martial arts to fight (obviously in self defence ) but this free sparring i believe is what is the end result of training dilligently.


Wahnam ch also brings up a point that i believe you could make a whole different thread on which is the point of skill vs technique. There is a saying which goes yi dan er li san gong fu , which means first courage then strength (power force) and finally skill. I agree that if someone has a high level skill then it doesnt matter what his technique is like. As long as he can throw a half decent punch.
But what i am saying is that there are many people who have a high level of skill nowadays so it comes down to technique. We cant just practise only internal force ignoring the efficiency of the technique we use to apply it.

qingui i am not referign to you or anyone as naive , but as you have stated in your steps 1 to 6 you havent actually took intensive training with other teachers before hand you compare what they say through books.
This is in a way verifying what i am saying.

I also have read what sifu wong was saying in the books and was very impressed but when what i saw fell short of my expectations thats why i decided to write up.

J-say that sounds really really cool reminds me of me and my experiences!!!!

[Michael Durkin]

Hey Kin Tama

Phew is it just me or does it feel like im not being attacked any more and the atmosphere is not so tense

Hehehehe. Your opening post in this thread was pretty strong and said a few things which Shaolin Wahnam didn't agree with, especially by the way you expressed your feelings. You may feel we "attacked" you as I have quoted above, but we don't feel like we have attacked you by our conduct, pretty much how you feel you haven't attacked us with your conduct. A matter of difference in opinion, as long as we agree to disagree amicably. I think you can understand that with your first post, you certainly attracted a lot of attention, maybe the amount of attention made you feel like you were being attacked.

I beleive things aren't so "tense" because we are all getting to know each other a bit more. This shows that things aren't quite as they appear on first sight, you have to dig a little deeper to understand, as we are doing now which is great.

Speak soon,

[shaolin_mike]

Also i lean towards the belief that if you practise chi kung only forhealth that is good but if you practise for martial arts your martial arts ability should be 100% as well as your chi kung. You shouldnt say i cant fight but i still enjoy doing this style because of the chi kung you should try 100% if you do martial arts. Other wise inner peace can be found in other ways.

This is one thing i disagree with 100% and Ill tell you why. Different people have different aspirations and not all of us who practice kung fu/tai chi are doing it to learn how to fight. I myself have only learned chi kung from Sifu Wong and am enjoying the benefits every day, when I eventually decide to start learning a martial art from him it will be to enhance my chikung not to learn how to fight. I have no great interest in fighting in fact i'm quite a pacifist and think fighting should be the last resort. Also when I hear things like what Jose said ..

Nowadays, I am crazy with Tai Chi Chuan, I practive every day, I am feeling so well, i can tell I am developing internal force very fast, and fell so happy and in peace. I also can see how my techniques have improved, and I feel I could apply them to defend myself if needed.

.. I realise there are others who are thinking in a similar way to me. Now if there are people who might want to become great fighters but for now this is not my aim and I fail to see anything wrong with it.

[George]

I think if we were to take 5-10 other schools and spread out shaolin wahnam students through them they would find the same things they are looking for elsewhere

and

depending on which way you look at it schools like shaolin wahnam can be rare or not. I believe there maybe 5-10 million people world wide practising martial arts. Which sounds like a LOT of people but in comparison to the worlds population of 1.3 billion this isnt many people.
I think its the same with martial arts schools of a high level if you look for them you can find them anywhere

If you can find another 5-10 schools that will offer an opportunity to cure the most serious illnesses, to develop internal force and combat martial art skills, as well as cultivate the practitioner mentally and spiritually all at once (well, as part of one system anyway) then it would make me very happy. Imagine if they all started posting here as well...

I'm sure your current school offers all of this, otherwise you wouldn't feel in the position to try and 'open our eyes'. If so, I am genuinely happy for you.

not all of us who practice kung fu/tai chi are doing it to learn how to fight

Indeed. Didn't the Shaolin Monks practice Kungfu less for fighting and more to help them achieve Enlightenment? That said, some of us do practice Kungfu to learn how to fight. Isn't it fantastic that one not only does not get in the way of the other, but compliments and enhances it?

[Michael Durkin]

Also i lean towards the belief that if you practise chi kung only forhealth that is good but if you practise for martial arts your martial arts ability should be 100% as well as your chi kung. You shouldnt say i cant fight but i still enjoy doing this style because of the chi kung you should try 100% if you do martial arts. Other wise inner peace can be found in other ways.

What I think you are saying here as its a bit difficult to follow, is that if you are going to practice Chi Kung for health, then you need to commit to the system completely as a health system. And I believe you go onto say the same thing about martial arts, that if you practice martial arts, even coming from a Chi Kung background, then you need to practice the combat/fighting system (as well as everything else) for you to say that you practice martial arts.

shaolin mike speaking on his view of Kin Tama's comment I quoted above:

This is one thing i disagree with 100% and Ill tell you why. Different people have different aspirations and not all of us who practice kung fu/tai chi are doing it to learn how to fight.

Generally speaking, I agree with Kin Tama here. If you are going to practice martial arts properly then you need to practice and learn about combat. If you can't defend yourself, within reason, then you haven't practiced your martial arts properly. Sifu Wong has mentioned many times, when people practice Kung Fu/Tai Chi generally for good health, without focussing on combat and fighting, they are practicing Kung Fu/Tai Chi dance. A term which basically means they practice what looks like martial arts, is impressive to watch and looks fast, but isn't actually applicable for combat.

Different people do have different aspirations and not all of us who practice martial arts are doing it because we want to fight. But never the less we can't forget what martial arts are, they do involve combat and fighting.

If you train martial arts mainly for health and didn't concentrate on the combat aspects then you are actually missing a large portion of the where the benefits come from. Benefits like quick decision making, instantaneous change, accuracy, tactics and strategies, courage, compassion, perseverance, discipline, humility, excellent physical/energetical/emotional/mental/spiritual health to name a few. For example, if you became involved in potentially dangerous situation, your efforts to defend yourself may flow quite well due to your good health, but you wouldn't be able to use the skills like instantaneous change, or quick decision making had your practiced martial arts with an emphasis on fighting and combat.

I also share exactly the same feelings towards fighting and martial arts as shaolin mike in that I do not like violence or fighting and am a pacifist.

when I eventually decide to start learning a martial art from him it will be to enhance my chikung not to learn how to fight

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying you are wrong in what you want to get out of martial arts, but if you don't practice Kung Fu with an emphasis on combat and fighting, then you aren't practicing the major aspect of Kung Fu.


You can have an interest in combat and be a pacifist at the same time. But I think its important to discuss the difference between an aggressive fighter, and a peaceful fighter.

Being an aggressive fighter, as in someone that goes out of his/her way to hurt someone, that wants to humiliate and dominate someone, that wants to bully and ruin someone's life is not the same as a peaceful fighter. A peaceful fighter is someone that doesn't want to fight at all, that wants peace and happiness to prevail, that doesn't continue to hit someone after it is obvious they are defeated, that doesn't intimidate or provoke violence.

For example, if you practiced martial arts for combat, then you would have the skills to deal with an attack calmly and confidently, as a pacifist. You would for example be able to apply tiger claws at the right moment to take control of the attacker, subduing him/her so that you could talk calmly but firmly, reassuring the attacker that you did not want to hurt him/her and that this can finish this peacefully. The tiger claws allow you to grip certain points on someone's body and cause pain in that spot, by adjusting the grip you can control the level of pain and the attacker. After the situation has calmed down, and you have talked with the attacker peacefully, you can rub the points to clear any potential blockage and the attacker should be fine, and maybe even a freind.

This example of where a fight has already started and a punch is flying at your head, you have to do something to take control of the situation so that yourself and no one else gets hurt. If possible we would avoid letting the situation reach a level where physical violence starts. This includes running away, turning the other cheek, saying sorry to name but a few. What we aspire to in Shaolin Wahnam is the peaceful resolution.

Isn't it fantastic that one not only does not get in the way of the other, but compliments and enhances it?

Absolutely, this article is of relevance.

[Mark A]

Force Versus Skill

Hey Folks,
Hey Kin Tama, I am glad that you feel that you arent being attacked and thanks for sticking with us.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about the video clips . This is not a problem and please dont think I am trying to avoid this topic. It is that we have one thing that you dont and that is direct experience of the clips. I personally have been kicked in the throat by Sihing Kai ( I think that is fair to say that I have direct experience ). So you can see why we have been so intent on our answers.

I agree completely what you saying about if someone has good skills it does not matter if they can only throw a half decent punch.

I do disagree that it only comes down to techniques, there is also tactics, mind set etc. The techniques in Shaolin Wahnam Kung Fu are actually quite varied and from this comes a range of different expressions.

Now when it comes to fighting, I am honestly not that keen to fight someone. I like to spar and I think it is great fun.

In one aspect you are saying can our techniques be used for fighting. Yes they can. One example would be a phoenix eye to the throat, or eyes.
It also only takes minimal effort to change a Tiger claw to a gripping motion to the throat or a raking motion to face or groin etc. It comes down to the training methodolgy and we do train this. As people have said we do train a combat art, and our awarness is on the combat aspects.

One vital point is that we dont train agression, we train intent!!

This is vastly different. An example would be that aggression would not allow you to pass you exams. It would not really do if you went up to your teacher and smashed them in the face and told them you wanted to pass.
If you intent was to pass the exams you would find a way, hopefully you would go home and study hard and not try and cheat .


As for chi kung this is actually one of the very first things we learn in our Kung Fu. The skills that spill over from it to the Kung Fu are literally endless. To be honest at the higher levels they are one in the same.

Some examples of these skills are, learning to be relaxed, breath control, body awareness, mind control, insight. And again these skills get way more developed in the Kung Fu and Tai Chi.

Also there is the beginning concept that before you can do Kung Fu you have to be healthy.


Thanks Mark