Counters to: Black Tiger Breaks Flank

[hakfudisciple]

Yes, but in that situation the attacker has an advantage.

Piercing with the free hand for the defender is awkward because of the body position and in any case the attacker will have his rear hand in front as a guard once the lock is released. Also, the attacker would be striking with the front hand while the defender would be striking with the rear, so the attacker also has the advantage of a shorter distance to target while having his own head further away.

Sure, with an advantage of skill the defender could get the hit in - skill will always beat techniques - but that doesn't make it a safe counter.

You're going based on the assumption that the person being attacked is still in the same position... This is why I stated a snake strike coming in over the withdrawing hand. At this point the distance is equal for the person being attacked so there is no position advantage for the attacker. I guess I should have added what I thought was obvious... when sinking and withdrawing the arm I'm twisting turning into the attacker... This puts me already inside his guard and lead arm, all I need do is follow my own bridge in.

What this small transition has done is given me an advantage in striking angle. My withdrawing limb is already shielding his lead arm for any counter attack, so the attacker would have to try and block my attack which is already inside with his rear hand... at that point I have both hands in his guard and it would be near impossible for him to stop both... I need just redirect the initial snaking hand.

The combat sequence is a tool, it is not sparring. The purpose is to train to body to move in ways that are not natural, until they become natural. They also teach the philosophy of applying the patterns in combat - a practical example. Actually, combat sequences are the lowest level of a series of steps before free sparring.


Best wishes,

I understand that but, why would you want to "train to body to move in ways that are not natural, until they become natural" ?

That's feeding into my point of being counter productive! The time it takes to train the body to move in un-natural ways could be spent training techniques that fit within the scope of the body's natural movement. The techniques should fit into your fighting style you should not have to adjust your fighting style to fit any technique! This is why some say once you learn a sequence/form it becomes yours... because no one can do it exactly like you! We all add our own little nuances to what we learn.

[Adam B]

That's just it, You don't need greater force to break most standing locks or grabs. In most cases you need just go soft and the grip/lock is already lost. Thus the reason most chin na/kum na techniques are followed up right away with another technique.

Ok. Like I said before - agree to disagree.

There are just too man variables with this application. If you need to be at a certain level to apply it, it's not very applicable IMO!

I think we've finally gotten to the core issue. We may need to agree to disagree again. From my perspective you need to be at a certain level to apply any technique successfully. The level required naturally is higher for more sophisticated techniques. The majority of martial artists don't use these techniques because they require much more time and effort to become skilled enough to use them.

Now this is where I have a problem with the sparring methods used in the video. IMO it's counter productive... The chances of you fighting someone and that sequence ever playing out remotely close is "0" In my experience that leads to problems for the person when the need arrives to use the technique. The reason most CMA stylist do so bad in MMA type events is not always do to lack of experience or poor training. The problem arises from the methods used in training the techniques. They don't train the techniques in a realistic setting with a resisting opponent. In that drill every thing is you do this i react with this. No matter how much speed and force is added you know what technique is coming and where it's going and it's intentions.

Now comes the student facing a real opponent that has no pre arranged movements or techniques and the student is left clueless because it was never tested on a resisting opponent. So when the student attempts to apply the technique and it doesn't go like he's practiced he's completely lost.

Like I said, I'd love to discuss our methodology with you. If you'd like to start a new thread I would be happy to join you. The one thing I would ask is that you first read and have a solid understanding of this page before getting into it so I'm not reproducing the whole thing.

Is the entire sequence Black Tiger Breaks Flank or is there a technique in particular?

Black Tiger Breaks Flank is the pattern in both pictures above. Sequence 20 the sequence of patterns shown in the video linked above which is only one of many possible applications of Breaking Flank.

I understand that but, why would you want to "train to body to move in ways that are not natural, until they become natural" ?

Jeff, did you come out of the womb sinking your elbow when your arm is grabbed and punching without fully extending to reduce the likelyhood of your elbow being broken, or did you train your body to move in an unnatural way because it offered specific combat advantages? If it's the former, you have an impressive pedigree and I need to make sure to never cross hands with you. If not, that is exactly what George is talking about.

That's feeding into my point of being counter productive! The time it takes to train the body to move in un-natural ways could be spent training techniques that fit within the scope of the body's natural movement. The techniques should fit into your fighting style you should not have to adjust your fighting style to fit any technique!

This paragraph has a lot in it that doesn't make sense. Kung fu is not natural movement. It is trained movement. Even so, all kung fu movements are also built on the smooth flow of qi (Breaking Flank included). They do, however, require a lot of training precisely because they are not natural. In terms of techniques fitting your fighting style, what do you mean by "your fighting style?" If you're referring to the style of kung fu you practice, you're not adapting your style to the technique because the technique being incorporated in the style means it is inherently in your fighting style. If you mean your natural inclination of what to do in a fight, again, kung fu is trained not natural movement. By practicing a technique that you weren't doing before you were taught it to the point where it is a natural reaction for you, you just adapted your fighting style to fit a technique. Granted people will have natural tendancies where some patterns will be more to their liking. This is one of the reasons I'm so glad I practice WahNam kung fu; we have seemingly limitless options of what to specialize in.

[hakfudisciple]

Ok. Like I said before - agree to disagree.

Agreed!

I think we've finally gotten to the core issue. We may need to agree to disagree again. From my perspective you need to be at a certain level to apply any technique successfully. The level required naturally is higher for more sophisticated techniques. The majority of martial artists don't use these techniques because they require much more time and effort to become skilled enough to use them.

We may have to agree to disagree because you should not need a certain amount of strength or to be at some peak physical level to apply most chin na techniques... especially, a lock! Now if we're getting into the ripping of muscle from bone and other ripping aspects of chin na, then that's something totally different...

Like I said, I'd love to discuss our methodology with you. If you'd like to start a new thread I would be happy to join you. The one thing I would ask is that you first read and have a solid understanding of this page before getting into it so I'm not reproducing the whole thing.

I'll take a look at the page you linked and decided if I want to go down that path....

Black Tiger Breaks Flank is the pattern in both pictures above. Sequence 20 the sequence of patterns shown in the video linked above which is only one of many possible applications of Breaking Flank.

I'll have to go back and look at the pictures and then at the video again.... I was under the impression that the entire sequence was Black Tiger Breaks Flank .

Jeff, did you come out of the womb sinking your elbow when your arm is grabbed and punching without fully extending to reduce the likelyhood of your elbow being broken, or did you train your body to move in an unnatural way because it offered specific combat advantages? If it's the former, you have an impressive pedigree and I need to make sure to never cross hands with you. If not, that is exactly what George is talking about.

This here is something I think we both misunderstood... I think YOU misunderstood my response and I misunderstood what he was saying.. The sinking of the elbow IMO.. is a natural movement. It's a technique that needs to be shown to the average person but, it is a natural movement. An example of an un-natural movement would be a Drunken technique where you are training the body to step or twist in an un-natural manner.

This paragraph has a lot in it that doesn't make sense. Kung fu is not natural movement. It is trained movement. Even so, all kung fu movements are also built on the smooth flow of qi (Breaking Flank included). They do, however, require a lot of training precisely because they are not natural.

A lot of kung fu is natural movement just because it's not the way we move doesn't make it un-natural. Granted, there are some movements that are not but kicking, punching, blocking is something we come out the womb knowing. A child that has never seen a fight still knows how to hit or kick. I'm trying to cross over a broad area here because I don't feel like writing this whole page of information but, it seems like that's what I'm going to end up doing anyway..

In terms of techniques fitting your fighting style, what do you mean by "your fighting style?" If you're referring to the style of kung fu you practice, you're not adapting your style to the technique because the technique being incorporated in the style means it is inherently in your fighting style. If you mean your natural inclination of what to do in a fight, again, kung fu is trained not natural movement. By practicing a technique that you weren't doing before you were taught it to the point where it is a natural reaction for you, you just adapted your fighting style to fit a technique. Granted people will have natural tendancies where some patterns will be more to their liking. This is one of the reasons I'm so glad I practice WahNam kung fu; we have seemingly limitless options of what to specialize in.

I highlighted what I'm talking about... people spend time trying to fit all of these techniques into their tool box. Fact is, you won't ever use 90% of them. It's one thing to train for fighting and another learning a style... most people confuse the two and think that because they're learning a style with all these techniques that they will somehow learn to fight in the process.

It's a reason why you hear 1-2 forms is all you need! People over complicate kung fu training. The more you train the more you realize you're just using the same basic techniques... all you did was practice a different route in getting to the same point! Even with all this training the body results back to it's primitive state once most get into a fight because they practice a bunch of techniques that are un-natural and never train or test them a realistic manner against a resisting opponent.

I'm going to sit down at some point today and write everything i'm trying to say here. I'm going in too many different directions because i didn't want to spend two hrs writing a detailed post but, that's the only way i can get what I'm saying across and understood.

[Daoist]

Hi everybody,

I would like to add my two cents to the pot. I think we as martial artists sometimes tend to dwell on little differences and forget to see the big picture.

My opinion: There are many different kungfu styles. Now why is that? Because there are many opinions about how to defeat an opponent. One needs to pick a style that they resonate with physically and spiritually. When it comes to fighting, one does not need many techniques. Depending on the style, you will probably learn several techniques that you don't like. If you don't like them, don't use them for fighting. If you picked the right style, there will also be several techniques that feel natural to you. Master these techniques for fighting.

You also need to consider other things like whether or not you have an answer for all types of attacks. But in my opinion, fighting is simple. Use techniques that you like and learn from your mistakes.

[Daoist]

Also, when I say "learn from your mistakes", you might have to add techniques or learn to adapt your technique if you find yourself in an awkward situation in sparring.

[hakfudisciple]

Also, when I say "learn from your mistakes", you might have to add techniques or learn to adapt your technique if you find yourself in an awkward situation in sparring.

This is the single most important part of training IMO... The more you learn the more you realize you're using the same basic techniques. Now that you have an understanding of the techniques you're learning the different ways to utilize them. Most are very simple but you don't realize it until it's been shown to you in most cases.

[Adam B]

We may have to agree to disagree because you should not need a certain amount of strength or to be at some peak physical level to apply most chin na techniques... especially, a lock!

You need to have a certain amount of strength for any technique you want to apply. The question is whether or not one needs a vastly disproportional amount of force compared to his opponent. My contention is that it is possible to apply sophisticate techniques through the use of tactics to someone with similar levels of force.

Now if we're getting into the ripping of muscle from bone and other ripping aspects of chin na, then that's something totally different...

Yeah, and I don't have that type of force, so I'm not going to speculate.

I'll take a look at the page you linked and decided if I want to go down that path....

Lol. Yeah, the discussion would probably be quite a project.

It's a technique that needs to be shown to the average person but, it is a natural movement. An example of an un-natural movement would be a Drunken technique where you are training the body to step or twist in an un-natural manner.

Could you please give a concise definition of what you mean by a natural movement. You've said that some drunken techniques are not natural, and you've given some vague examples of what is natural movement (punching, kicking, blocking). I still really have no idea, though, what makes a movement natural or unnatural in your mind.

It's one thing to train for fighting and another learning a style... most people confuse the two and think that because they're learning a style with all these techniques that they will somehow learn to fight in the process.

I disagree. I learn a style (Shaolinquan) so I can fight with that style. When I spar, I use Shaolin techniques. It makes no sense to me to practice a style if I'm not going to fight using that style. The reason I'm able to use techniques (both basic and sophisticated) from the style I practice is because included in this style is a systematic sparring methodology.

Even with all this training the body results back to it's primitive state once most get into a fight because they practice a bunch of techniques that are un-natural and never train or test them a realistic manner against a resisting opponent.

With the proper training it is possible to use sophisticated techniques in combat. I'm not sure about un-natural techniques because I'm still not sure what you mean by natural/unnatural.

[Adam B]

Hey Jeff,

Sorry for posting another question before giving you a chance to respond to the previous one, but I just saw the added posts to the Black Tiger Style thread. After watching both the old video and the updated video, I can't help but notice a change with regards to Breaking Flank. At 1:14 in the original form, the exponent turns around and clearly executes that pattern that we call in our school Black Tiger Breaks Flank. Not only is he performing the form, he's also hinting at the application with the turn from the left to right bow stance. In the updated video at the same part of the form (1:28) he does the same turn around with the left elbow uppercut, but the right hand is resting on the shoulder instead of forming the tiger claw at chest level as in Breaking Flank. Do you have any information as to why this detail was simplified out of the updated form?

Thanks,

[hakfudisciple]

Hey Jeff,

Sorry for posting another question before giving you a chance to respond to the previous one, but I just saw the added posts to the Black Tiger Style thread. After watching both the old video and the updated video, I can't help but notice a change with regards to Breaking Flank. At 1:14 in the original form, the exponent turns around and clearly executes that pattern that we call in our school Black Tiger Breaks Flank. Not only is he performing the form, he's also hinting at the application with the turn from the left to right bow stance. In the updated video at the same part of the form (1:28) he does the same turn around with the left elbow uppercut, but the right hand is resting on the shoulder instead of forming the tiger claw at chest level as in Breaking Flank. Do you have any information as to why this detail was simplified out of the updated form?

Thanks,

Adam,

No problem I haven't gotten around to typing my long winded reply yet hahaha

I can't say with 100% certainty but I do have an idea why... The old video is from the early 70's which was during my sifu's generation and is one of the first video captures of the form. In the form is a younger training brother of my sifu who was still learning the form, thus the pauses and mistakes. Many of Hak Fu Mun's forms were changed by both my sigung and sifu to be more practical. They worked together to change techniques they felt were outdated.

Now as to why the hand is resting on the shoulder...

We always keep a hand there in the case a follow up attack is launched by your opponent you have a hand free to parry, counter etc...
What the hand also does is, it's in position to guard against any attack to the soft tissue of the arm pit. The arm pit left unprotected is a very dangerous target. We have many attacks aimed at that particular area... I know my sifu stresses protecting the arm pit, so that would be my guess as to why the change.

The reason i'm not 100% sure is the guy in the updated vid is about 4-5 generations removed from my sifu and they do things a bit different than we do.

[hakfudisciple]

Actually discussed this sequence today with my sifu while we were training. One of my training brothers had his laptop and I showed my sifu the techniques and told him what I felt was vulnerable...

He saw the technique exactly how I saw it... All one need do is sink the elbow and the sequence falls apart. Any of the techniques tried after the sinking of the elbow would open the person up to serious injury. I still don't understand the cross over step and neither did my sifu. That step only makes sense if it's behind the opponent not in front. I'm sure you guys have your reasons for the sequence and if it works for you, I'm fine with it!

[Antonius]

Actually discussed this sequence today with my sifu while we were training. One of my training brothers had his laptop and I showed my sifu the techniques and told him what I felt was vulnerable...

He saw the technique exactly how I saw it... All one need do is sink the elbow and the sequence falls apart. Any of the techniques tried after the sinking of the elbow would open the person up to serious injury. I still don't understand the cross over step and neither did my sifu. That step only makes sense if it's behind the opponent not in front. I'm sure you guys have your reasons for the sequence and if it works for you, I'm fine with it!

Hey Jeff. How are you going to sink a broken elbow?

[Adam B]

All one need do is sink the elbow and the sequence falls apart.

Maybe you missed post 22 where I said this:

The attacker would be foolish to continue to try and force the technique at this point (stepping in and turning his back). A good Chin Na exponent would flow from his initial plan into some other technique (like the one George mentioned) if someone implemented an initial point defense such as this.

During the majority of this discussion we were not talking about the same thing. I was discussing the pattern Black Tiger Breaks Flank, and you were discussing Sequence 20. It might be worthwhile to re-read the thread in that context. If you're talking about the whole sequence in general, then it requires an understanding of our sparring methodology to have that conversation. Unfortunately, I won't really have time for that as my school starts back up this week.

All the best,

[Daoist]

The internet isn't a good place to discuss techniques I think. If this discussion took place in the real world I think it would last about a minute and everyone would understand each other's point of view very quickly.

Discussing techniques like this doesn't do much. What matters is what you do in the fight. If the technique works for you then use it. If you don't like it, then don't use it. I know many techniques which I used to think were no good, and then I saw someone being able to use it. No need to argue about techniques and whether they can be used. Any technique can be used to do anything. What matters most is chi. Chi gives you all the skill you need.

Just remember this everybody: Use what you like, don't use what you don't like.

[Daoist]

One more thing....movement. A single technique does not exist in isolation. You are your body, you are the technique. It is all movement.

[Adam B]

The internet isn't a good place to discuss techniques I think. If this discussion took place in the real world I think it would last about a minute and everyone would understand each other's point of view very quickly.

I agree that a "hands-on" discussion would be more ideal, but this can still often offer insight. It can also give an idea of something to try out that you may not have thought of (which I did with Jeff's counter against someone who is familiar with Breaking Flank).

Discussing techniques like this doesn't do much. What matters is what you do in the fight.

Agreed. However, correct practice after correct understanding (which can come from discussion) will give more effective tools to use in a fight.

If you don't like it, then don't use it. I know many techniques which I used to think were no good, and then I saw someone being able to use it.

My hope was that through discussion it would be possible to reveal how this technique was usable. It may not be possible with someone without direct experience.

No need to argue about techniques and whether they can be used.

I was unaware there was an argument going on. To the best of my knowledge I've been participating in a lively discussion where two parties have remained respectful while offering differing opinions and experiences.

Any technique can be used to do anything. What matters most is chi. Chi gives you all the skill you need.

Perhaps you would care to clarify/elaborate on this. As it reads right now, I very strongly disagree with this statement. Chi is an essential component in internal martial arts and the base upon which good kung fu is built, but it is still just the base. One needs techniques to put the qi to use. The exception would be a practitioner who has built a largly disproportional amount of qi/force compared to his opponent (to which I would refer you to post 28 of this thread).

To be honest, I feel statements like this over-mystify the internal martial arts and lead people farther from applicable skill.

One more thing....movement. A single technique does not exist in isolation.

Agreed.

You are your body, you are the technique.

This sounds wonderful. Can you share some personal experiences you've had implementing this in sparring (not necessarily a fight) with a forceful, aggressive opponent?