Jesus Was a Vegatarian. Must see!

[shaolin_mike]

I just want to address on thing you said Alex

I've heard compelling arguments that nutrients found in animal products are important, even necessary, for optimal human function.

While we all have our preferences about what we eat or don´t eat this statement just doesn´t hold water. You can say you prefer meat but no one can assert that it is necessary for optimal human function, especially since so many humans are functioning optimally on a vegetarian diet.

The body needs nutrition and it doesn´t care whether this comes in the form of a dead animal or a plant or a pill...

Also I want to clear up something else, some people think a vegetarian eats only vegetables. Actually we also have nuts grains legumes and many have dairy and eggs too.

Now if there are people living in a city who just decide to cut out meat out of sympathy for animals and they go on a diet of pizza and chips a lá ketchup, such people will definitely suffer detrimental effects but it is not because they are vegetarian, it´s because they don´t know how to eat a nutricious diet.

[Zhang Wuji]

Now if there are people living in a city who just decide to cut out meat out of sympathy for animals and they go on a diet of pizza and chips a lá ketchup, such people will definitely suffer detrimental effects but it is not because they are vegetarian, it´s because they don´t know how to eat a nutricious diet.

Notwithstanding that, I simply looooveeee pizza (with lots and lots of cheese), and if I could get away with it, eat it every day. As it was, I eat tomato-based pasta almost every day. I have a few more stuff to add, but no time now. Will write more soon.

[SimonR]

Dear Piti Sisook, I was waiting for your entry, it makes me remember the tragic story of the blackberries in the blender.

Looking forward to see you soon here at the Blue Mountain!

[Hellsviking]

Omnivores

Humans are omnivores. We are able to survive on just meat, vegetation or both. A carnivore eg a lion; if it can't find meat it starves to death, it doesn't start eating bushes. The same goes for herbivores the other way round.

Owsley Stanley (http://www.thebear.org/essays1.html#anchor496162) has only eaten meat for over 50 years, no vegetation at all. He's 73, and has a body of a 30 year old.

In truth not all of us would do well only eating meat. The same goes that not all of us would do well only eating grains, legumes, vegetables, friuts, nuts, seeds.... vegetation.

Why? Simply because our digestive systems vary. Some people are more protein (meat) orientated, others more carbohydrate and those that are happily mixed.

Some people need protein and are unable to derive protein adaquately from plants. If they eat a high percentage of carbohydrates to meats and fat, their insulin levels remain too high, causing harm.

A person who is carbohydrate orientated would feel sluggish and unhealthy consuming a high percentage of meat. They often feel very satisfied with meal of brown rice, lentils, roast veg, seeds, salad, olive oil, etc.

There's no shame in eating according to how you are naturally.

Did Jesus eat any of the fish that he shared amongst the crowds? Does it matter if he was vegetarian or not. The bushmen are deeply spiritual, and they hunt and eat their kill, as in many other cultures.

At the end of the day it boils down to; how we raise livestock, how we slaughter, how plant crops, how we breed and GM everything.....

Erik

[AlexBaranosky]

While we all have our preferences about what we eat or don´t eat this statement just doesn´t hold water.

Hi Mike,

Have you read the books I referenced in my earlier post?

[AlexBaranosky]

Dear Alex from my own experience and from what I have seen in a lot of close people that are 100% vegetarians, the health problems occurring when somebody doesn’t eat meat are not caused by the absence of the meat but for a lack of nutrients on your diet that normally are given by the meat, but we only need to find something to replace it. Every body is different and probably you needed to eat meat again in this time of your life, or probably you lacked some nutrients that could be replaced with something else. In my case for the periods that I have been without any meat in my diet for a long time, I have felt very good, my body is good, I feel light and the chi flows nicely, but more important, my spirit feels great.

Hello Simon,

Compared to most people I eat a very nutritious diet. With lots of nuts grains legumes etc. Avoiding refined foods. I'd say my diet is top 5% of the population. Eventually if I don't eat meat I start craving it. Who knows why? I am pondering your post.

Noone says dolphins aren't spiritual for eating fish. And noone says wolves arent spiritual for eating small animals. So why is a human not spiritual if they eat animals?

I see value in aiming to be more humane to lifestock animals for certain. But if my body wants to eat them I will.

[Hellsviking]

But if my body wants to eat them I will.

Good for you Alex. Obviously in a nice way

[shaolin_mike]

Hi Mike,

Have you read the books I referenced in my earlier post?

Nope, I know many healthy vegetarians that was my point. If whatever theory put forward in this book is correct then these people would not be healthy. Also there is a tradition of vegeterianism in India going back thousands of years..

I mean I´m sure there are books somewhere that say Chi Kung is dangerous or a waste of time but we know that´s not true from direct experience right?

[SimonR]

Dear Alex, thanks for your reply. I guess what you are doing is great, just continue following your body, if in any moment in your life, your spirit invites you to stop eating animals I am sure you will have the awarness to recognize it and the will to do it.

Best wishes!

Simon

[parrapiti]

I like the general path this thread is taking - do as you want/need, respecting diversity and plurality in dietary perspectives.

When I look at myself, I find binocular vision, canines and incisors, and a single stomach. The analogy that comes to my mind is more proximity with carnivores and omnivores, than with herbivores,... And it works well for me.

And at the same time I have had wonderful spriritual learning experiences sharing with full-time vegetarians, full-time carnivores and other fellow omnivores all over the world.

Piti

[AlexBaranosky]

Nope, I know many healthy vegetarians that was my point. If whatever theory put forward in this book is correct then these people would not be healthy. Also there is a tradition of vegeterianism in India going back thousands of years.

Knowing many healthy vegetarians doesn't mean you have the book written on which diets other human's genetic makeups may function optimally on. It's only a small sample size, and doesn't necessarily correlate to everyone.

I mean I´m sure there are books somewhere that say Chi Kung is dangerous or a waste of time but we know that´s not true from direct experience right?

There are very, very few cultures that have traditionally eaten a vegetarian diet. It is interesting to note that animals cost more money to raise than the same amount of vegetarian food, so you'd think they wouldn't raise them, since most people would prefer to save money. In fact all of the cultures studied in the book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration went out of their way, FAR out of there way in many cases specifically to find specific animal foods.

The point is, eat all the veggies you want, but it doesn't invalidate other peoples' choices.

Even our own esteemed Sifu eats meat

All the Best,
Alex

[Hellsviking]

if in any moment in your life, your spirit invites you to stop eating animals I am sure you will have the awarness to recognize it and the will to do it.

What you have said is a belief rather than a fact (facts and opinions ) Realising you don't want to kill may be on your and many others journey, but not everybody. Not wanting to kill (a desire) may be your spiritual pitfall.

One of the reasons why being vegetarian may be useful on your spiritual quest is that it raises your air (1 of the 5 elements). Not eating meat allows you to feel less solid (lighter). It only helps at a low level. At the end of the day you have to do the work.

Eating a correct vegetarian diet does not suit everybody.

[shaolin_mike]

I want to be clear about what I´m debating here because I think I might have been slightly misunderstood. Apologies for any misconceptions I might have caused with unskillful writing, I´ll try again.

I am writing to voice my disagreement with the statement Alex made which was this:

I've heard compelling arguments that nutrients found in animal products are important, even necessary, for optimal human function. (my italics)

Now I want to express that I have respect for Alex and everyone else who eats meat, and that I believe they have a right to do/eat what they want. Nevertheless I disagree that meat is necessary or essential for optimal human function, I think this is a myth. It´s my opinion that a lot of harm is being done to the environment, to animals and to human bodies over this myth. EDIT: I was surprised after a little research there are even vegetarian bodybuilders, the most famous of which is Bill Pearl (http://ksteveh.tripod.com/pearl.html)

The point is, eat all the veggies you want, but it doesn't invalidate other peoples' choices.

Even our own esteemed Sifu eats meat

As I mentioned people have the right to choose but that is not the issue I´m focussing on. As for Sifu, he has stated that he tried the practice of Bi Gu (if I remember the Chinese word well) in which he did not eat at all for a period of time. From what I can see eating meat or any kind of food at all is an option for Sifu and not essential to his functioning.

Knowing many healthy vegetarians doesn't mean you have the book written on which diets other human's genetic makeups may function optimally on. It's only a small sample size, and doesn't necessarily correlate to everyone.

While we cannot account for their level of health it is estimated that there are 7.3 million vegetarians in the US and another 3.6 million in the UK.(http://www.raw-food-health.net/NumberOfVegetarians.html) That´s 10.9 million from 2 countries alone. So I think that is already quite a large sample. I agree with you that it doesn´t correlate to everyone, like that gentleman quoted earlier who eats meat exclusively.

There are very, very few cultures that have traditionally eaten a vegetarian diet. It is interesting to note that animals cost more money to raise than the same amount of vegetarian food, so you'd think they wouldn't raise them, since most people would prefer to save money. In fact all of the cultures studied in the book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration went out of their way, FAR out of there way in many cases specifically to find specific animal foods.

I agree, also very few cultures have abstained from political or religious wars but I think those are not essential to our optimal functioning either. I do not know enough about the early beginnings of man, why society unfolded the way it did.. I am just trying to show that it is possible for people and societies to both be vegetarian and thrive.

Peace and love to all whatever you have for dinner

[shaolin_mike]

Bigger than I thought

I just read the rest of that article in the link I posted

India holds more vegetarians than the rest of the world combined.

A 2006 survey by the Hindu newspaper (5) found that 40 percent of the population, or 399 million people, are vegetarians.

[Antonius]

While we all have our preferences about what we eat or don´t eat this statement just doesn´t hold water. You can say you prefer meat but no one can assert that it is necessary for optimal human function, especially since so many humans are functioning optimally on a vegetarian diet.

How do you know that these vegetarians are functioning optimally? Do you have a way of objectively measuring their health? Do you have a way of objectively predicting their health 10-20 years down the road?

Without question, I can say that the vegetarians and vegans that we have seen in our clinic have been unhealthy as a direct result of their diet. Of course, many of the omnivores are also unhealthy as a direct result of their diet. But the point is that vegetarians in the U.S. (other countries are different because the nutritional content of the veggies is different) are not doing their health a favor with their diet.

The body needs nutrition and it doesn´t care whether this comes in the form of a dead animal or a plant or a pill...

Chinese medicine disagrees with you. A pill does not have the same energy as an herb or an animal. Although many Chinese doctors use powdered herbs or tea pills (for convenience and patient compliance), it is generally agreed that raw herbs are more effective.

As to the ethical argument about not eating meat:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/science/22angi.html?_r=1