Dispelling Ignorance and Untruths - A Case Study of Baguamonk1's Posts

[joko]

Thank you, Bong Sau.

Joko

[Bong Sau]

That was certainly a gracious reply. Thank you Sifu Anthony.

I am not an experienced martial artist. As I said, only one who has come to this relatively late in life.

No need to compile any list for my sake. I do very much appreciate your reply.

And I meant to say that your word alone on it is sufficient.

Indeed, no one is getting hurt here and the sparring analogy is appropriate.

[Antonius]

Oh, don't take my word for it, or anyone's word for it. This is the same philosophy that we use with high-level internal arts. We don't take anything on faith alone (although trust in the teacher is necessary), but rather practice diligently and correctly for a reasable period of time, and then judge for ourselves.

[Bong Sau]

Oh, don't take my word for it, or anyone's word for it. This is the same philosophy that we use with high-level internal arts. We don't take anything on faith alone (although trust in the teacher is necessary), but rather practice diligently and correctly for a reasable period of time, and then judge for ourselves.

I can take your word that you believe that BaguaMonk disrespected you.

You're not off the hook though. You will have to prove yourself on other points though.

I do hope to be able to go to the workshop coming up in Chicago. I have a crazy job, and a young family, and going to class 4 or 5 times a week doesn't leave me much time.

If not this time, the next.

[Antonius]

I've been on this forum for 4 years. Believe me -- I'm never off the hook, no matter how many times I "prove" myself.

[Bong Sau]

I've been on this forum for 4 years. Believe me -- I'm never off the hook, no matter how many times I "prove" myself.

I waste a lot of time arguing politics on another board and I catch a lot because I'm quite liberal in my politics.

Why argue politics? I don't know. I'd be better off going to the workshop of course.

Anyway, as flaming goes, this place is tame. The only real defense to any of it is a sense of humor.

[Antonius]

I have no sense of humor. I am a hardass. Plus, I'm half Vulcan.

[Molly]

I have no sense of humor. I am a hardass. Plus, I'm half Vulcan.

So that explains that cold, calculating logic of yours (but not the Vulcan mumbojumbo)

[Mark Blohm]

We are not doing it for him, although he may also benefit. We are doing it for our students.

We should all be extremely grateful for this.

[Baguamonk1]

Good luck

Oh wow.

The kind gracious people who have contacted me are right- This is beating a dead horse, and it is neither worthy my time, nor yours. There would be no need for any of this if people weren't so insecure in what they do. Pretentious use of words "Case study," "This is for the students," "It is not attacking," "Your cup is full, you will never be worthy of my master!!"etc. Wow, pat yourselves on the backs, you guys are heroes!!! It is almost like you are playing some sort of roleplaying game, noble, confucious, teachers who have to save their students from the evil influences from the outside world. This "holier than thou" attitude gets old, as if it puts you above everything else, and gives you the right to call others ignorant. Sorry but covering up your intentions with this attitude is down-right insulting. Why don't you just flat out say what you mean? The only reason I have even become defensive, or rude is because of how ridiculous it has become. This does not further help in the clarity department, it only makes it worse.Put words in my mouth, commentaries of one or two sentences from some of my posts, etc. Wow, you really have "disproved" alot...Considering almost nothing of what you claim can be proven anyways (not yet).

I was actually thinking of making my own thread, putting quotes from various members of how "ignorant" it is, or even commenatries made on my own quotes that I thought to be "ignorant." I was even going to take this thread seriously and quote myself, to counter your own commentaries for my other quotes. But then I realized how long it would take, and how worthless it would be. It would just keep on going, and I don't see it going anywhere.

Nobdoy has to agree with me, they can do whatever they wish. But bringing yourself down to this level, to "Save your students" , in the guise of some honorable "case study" is what frustrated me the most. If you don't, will your students world, and yours alike, truly come crumbling down? Are the skies going to fall? You know, you could just tell me to tone down the posting, or to not post at all, or even ask me to be nicer, or whatever it is you wish to say. You could say "Hey we don't agree with you, and we have to keep our students views on a tight leash.." But I have seen nothing but condescending attitudes and responses (well some people were nice), reeking of insecurity. Of course its going to be a gang-bang, its a forum of people from the same school, same styles and methods. The way everybody talks, and acts the same is also kind of scary. As if this is the only true way to attain gong fu skills or mastery, I have even heard that 90% of stuff out there isn't real Shaolin, and Wahnam is the real deal! I think there are a vast majority of Shaolin practicioners who not only do not agree with this, but have the same opinion reserved for Wahnam.

I do think Chi is sort of an outdated term, but that does not mean it is not effective. It is only outdated in the manner that many modern-day martial artists, and researchers alike have trouble with this word. Or more the concepts it brings to the table, their understanding of life, and the modern world around us is different, sometimes it requires other methods of explaining. If you want to help someone..you can't always come saying things the way you learned them, or others before you. It can just as easily alienate them. Sometimes it is wise to try and fit your words to theirs. And "chi" is an easy enough to understand term, but not for the modern skeptics. Even they, just like any human being, are worthy of learning these arts.

And again my words taken out of context. Clearly you believe a master should assume picture-perfect stances when any situation arises, even if the person is less skilled, and the situation does not call for it. What if someone comes charging at you, and you can easily step sideways, and push him into the ground?? Clearly the man's skill was below him, why would he have to exert any more effort than this?? I am not saying to show sloppy footwork..I am simply saying if the situation doesn't call for it, it doesn't need to be used at the appropiate time, and if it does it can be "perfect" without being "picture perfect." How many times have we seen Taiji masters uproot their tuishou partner with ease, without the need for barely any visible movement, or "deep stances..."Many..It does not have to look like a Shaw Brothers film for it to be effective, or known as gong fu. If someone throws a jab I can shift my weight back to avoid it..I don't have to retract into a deep gong bu stance every time a jab is thrown..There is a difference between "posing" and actually effectively using something. I never said stances were useless, in fact I am a huge advocator of them.Take a shape, or form, to perfectly counter and fit the shape and form of your opponent. Even if it is a subtle one, such as the shape of your opponents intention.

I believe some have even revealed their intentions, they are bitter perhaps for what has been said in the past on other forums, is this the main motivation? If so, then I will leave you with an apology. I did not mean to insult or harm anyone's fragile minds, or ego's. I guess I gave into these ridiculous attitudes, and that is my fault. I allowed it to get worse.

It is fantastic, that even after someone is gone you continue to insult, and use them for examples to the supreme "superirority" of Wahnam kung fu. Yes, you have "won" again...Put it on the victory notch belt, because I am leaving. Clearly topics like this, and comments like the ones made previously of other people, are not made to be constructive or helpful at all, but rather some pretentious show of superiority, masked with the intentions of "regulating the development of students." This in itself is a red flag, when teachers have to shape the minds of the young, and fickle to discredit opinions of others who's views don't cling to their own. "We are only helping,"I can't tell if its for the business/money, or something else. Whatever it is, the attitude sure does throw people off. It is even more interesting that all the teachers/moderators have to get together, discuss in private, and then formulate a plan to rid the forum from the "outsiders" perspective. Not only this, but a creative one at that. It allows you to criticize, and demoralize someone without getting your hands dirty.

I am sorry that your worlds have been tainted by words that don't seem to match your own. Don't get too wound up. It is only an internet forum..But oh yes, an internet forum that is more popular than magazines and newspapers. I am not sure wether you are promoting, or degrading Chinese Martial Arts..Oh that must be because of my "ignorance." No wonder you guys are so uptight You guys are the light! while everyone else is just ignorant and anyone who makes a comment on your forum, that is not 100% Wahnam material (not just me..) is immediately jumped upon. And I can name a few of them..But then again it is not worthy causing more disturbance. I am surprised that Buddha himself does not descend from the heavens himself and come to praise your system for its superiority over everything else!

From what I have seen and heard from various other people/sources, I am only saying what was at the back of their toungues. But even all of them have advised me to stop beating a dead horse. I never wanted to say any of this, nor should I have had to. But apparently you guys just continue. And it will continue even after I'm gone...How noble..

I'm done, good night and good luck

[Andrew]

A long post Baguamonk1. I wonder what it was you were actually trying to say though

I am enjoying a weekend "off" with my family so will only make a short comment by quoting the most relevant words I found in your last post.

Why don't you just flat out say what you mean?

In case you hadn't notice, that's exactly what we've been doing. No hiding behind internet names and no hiding in any other way. As we said, calling a spade a spade.

The remainder of your post was amusing at best, insulting and rude at worst. --- Oh no, we're not allowed to say that on our own forum

It would seem you need to calm yourself a bit before you make any further posts (if you decide you wish to).

Andrew

[Antonius]

Dear Baguamonk,

But bringing yourself down to this level, to "Save your students" , in the guise of some honorable "case study" is what frustrated me the most.

Pretend for a moment that it's really true, that we are really doing this for our students, and that it's not a guise. Just pretend. If that were true, would it make things clearer for you? Would that help to explain our position? If so, then we are a step closer to understanding each other.

The difference is that we are not pretending. That may be hard for you to believe, but it's true. Lots of what we say on this forum is hard to believe, and yet true. When I first heard about dispersing clouds with qi, I thought it was nonsense. I dismissed it totally. Then, one day, I used the trick I mentioned above to look at things again. I pretended, just for fun, that dispersing clouds was a real, if rare, skill.

And from there, things became clearer. I suddenly gained perspective. It became obvious that, if there was even a remote chance that this was true, I needed to find out. And so I did.

I was actually thinking of making my own thread, putting quotes from various members of how "ignorant" it is, or even commenatries made on my own quotes that I thought to be "ignorant."

From the beginning, we've welcomed your feedback, and encouraged you to post your own comments. You are welcome to step in and correct us if we are misinterpreting your words. But I don't see you doing that. Plus, we're using your own words verbatim, not paraphrasing like you do.

"Your cup is full, you will never be worthy of my master!!

We don't take your words and then rephrase them like you did above. We quote you exactly, and then comment. Perhaps we have misunderstood you at times. Rather than running away, why don't you take the time to correct our mistakes? We are reasonable people, and we respond to reason. Just say things simply and clearly, and we are sure to get your meaning.

If you don't, will your students world, and yours alike, truly come crumbling down? Are the skies going to fall?

Is your world going to come crumbling down? If the answer is no, then what's the problem? If you are so secure, as you assert, and we are so insecure, as you assert, then why are you so worried? Just enjoy the lively debate, and stop freaking out.

It is fantastic, that even after someone is gone you continue to insult, and use them for examples to the supreme "superirority" of Wahnam kung fu.

We don't "continue to insult." We haven't been calling Kaitain a big doodie-head since he left. But we have continued to discuss his posts.

That is the nature of a discussion forum, my friend. When you make statements in public and publish them online, they remain there for all the world to consider -- and yes, even criticize. If you decide to leave the forum, that is your choice. But remember -- it was also your choice to a) join our forum and b) publish your comments here.

Best regards,

[Baguamonk1]

Wow. I am actually surprised, very kind posts. I know pretty soon the Calvary is coming in and I am going to get it just as rough as I gave it in my previous post, but thanks for the comments. But I deserve it I guess. I will not reply anymore though.

Well, I apologize for being down-right rude in my last post. Like I said, not only is this beating a dead horse, but it is unworthy of any of our time.

I paraphrase because it would just take too long, its just not worth it to continue. The quotes might be verbatim, but it is like one little bit, ONLY quoted so that the person could fill it in with his own commentary afterwards, and then "disprove it." Most of what he claims is "ignorant" has already been talked about, or clarified in other posts or sometimes in the same post. Alot of the quotes lose their meaning without the rest of the paragraph. Boy if I quoted someone every time I wanted, for just one sentence, I could make them look bad too..And then I could say "See this suggests, again that so-and-so is ignorant because he clearly does not know what he is talking about."

If there was actually a sentence of me saying something like "Stances are completely useless," then I would have no reason to get upset. But instead, the above is used in the commentary AFTER I have been quoted. I have never said anything of the sort.

[Andrew]

Thanks for your apology Baguamonk. That is what I had hoped you would do.

Back to the issue of stances you mention. Nowhere did you say stances were useless. I don't think I (or anyone else) said you did. What you did say was that they had limited use and could (should?) be discarded when confronted by an (apparently) less skilled opponent. This is wrong from my point of view. Throwing away advantages just because you perceive your opponent to be less skilled is, excuse the term, stupid.

On another thread you said one should never underestimate their opponent. You said that even an untrained fighter could do severe damage. I agree completely. So why on earth throw away the stances which offer so many advantages? This makes no sense whatsoever.

Andrew

[Jordan]

Baguamonk1,

You seem to think that this thread is meant to attack you personally. This is certainly not true. We actually wish you well. For example, like my kung fu brothers who have made their feelings known in another thread, I am very happy to know that your mother recovered from cancer. Congratulations to both you and your mother, and please convey my regards to her.

Nevertheless, wishing you well should not be confused with my duty as a Shaolin Wahnam instructor to dispel ignorance and untruths for the benefits of hundreds of our students as well as other forum members reading this discussion forum, especially when you wrote as if you were an authority, yet you posts contain a lot of ignorance and untruths.

You have repeatedly accused us that our comments are said out of context. This is another glaring example of untruth, and it also substantiates our belief that you lack mental clarity. Your ignorance and lack of clarity are the two themes of this thread. If you think we are mistaken, you should provide evidence to debunk us, but instead your subsequent posts in this and other threads continue to give weight to these two themes of your ignorance and lack of clarity.

All my comments are based on what you said. The quotes are not taken in bits here and there, but are taken completely from your post in question. There is nothing more in context than this. On the other hand, you merely mentioned your opinions but never substantiate them with evidence or with quotes from us.

There are so many examples in your various posts showing ignorance and untruths as well as lack of mental clarity. But instead of highlighting all of them, or even some of them, which may make this thread longer than it should be, I shall continue giving evidence from the post in question.

Further examples showing ignorance and untruths will follow.