What is genuine, traditional Taijiquan?

[KungFuJoe]

I'm also very fond of emoticons I guess...

[Robin]

Interesting debate

Hello all,

I am very happy to see such a lively debate concerning 'genuine Taijiquan' and some very intersting comments.

[QUOTEAnyway,
It is an impossibility to see skill in statics postures or even execution.
Tai chi fighting has never existed and never will. As long as I can see expression like peng, lu, ji an, etc in application I can be sure it is genuine

just my 2 shillings!
][/QUOTE]

Yeniseri, that is quite an amusing and sweeping comment. I am not sure wether the generations of past Taijiquan masters who were famous for the legendary fighting ability would find your assesment funny or insulting! Probably funny.

Onwards with the debate!

[Robin]

Chi and Internal Force in Genuine, Traditional Taijiquan

The kind of force used in genuine, traditional Taijiquan is internal force, not muscular strength. And the core of force training in genuine, traditional Taijiquan is chi.kung, not hitting sandbags and lifting weights.

From what Kaitain has written, he does not believe in internal force and chi kung, and he emphasizes working on sandbags. From what he has shown in his videos, he uses muscular strength.

In direct contrast, Wahnam Taijiquan uses internal force, not muscular strength. And Wahnam Taijiquan practitioners use chi kung in their force training. We do not favour hitting sandbags and lifting weights.

Kaitain is fond of asking for proofs. While an honest attempt to verify is healthy, deliberating doing it to an extreme as in the case of Kaitain asking Siheng Kai to give the names of his opponents to prove that he (Kai) had won more than a hundred sparring competitions, or asking for proofs on generally accepted facts like Kaitain asking for proofs that “internal power” is used in Taijiquan, is a stubborn attempt to cover up ignorance.

I would not wish to waste time bringing in proofs that internal force is crucial in genuine, traditional Taijiquan, as it is a generally accepted fact. I am really surprised that despite his possession of 50 Taijiquan classics, Kaitain fails to notice that “internal force”, or “nei gong” in Chinese, is often mentioned in Taijiquan texts.

It is also a generally accepted fact that in genuine, traditional Taijiquan, physical size, age and sex are not determining factors in winning a combat. In other words, using genuine, traditional Taijiquan, a small-sized, elderly woman can beat a hefty young man. This, of course, shows the application of internal force.

The following are just a few of Kaitain’s statements showing his ignorance of chi and internal force.

“I can hit people very hard and 'internally' (if you want to call it that - it's just good mechanics)”

“Show me a taijiquan classic that even uses the term "Internal Power".

“Im using fa-jing in my video, … It's whole body explosive power, utilising every joint all at once. There must be a coiling (collecting) of the body and a sudden release of that energy in one direction. Some styles train this in their form but I only train it on to a heavy bag or padded up partner (the padding is limited in effectiveness).”

“Fa-jing as a method is purely body mechanics.”

(In response to Hubert asking what is chi or energy)
“In physical terms it is potential force when collected and kinetic force when released.”

I find it amusing that when commenting on my Sifu’s performance of Wahnam Taijiquan, Kaitain said my Sifu used “segmental force” instead of “whole body force”.
This shows that Kaitain is not only ignorant of internal force in Taijiquan, he is also ignorant of the traditional terms used to describe force application in genuine, traditional Taijiquan.

Terms like “whole body force” and “segmental force” may excellent for external arts like Boxing and Wrestling, but inadequate to describe internal force in genuine, traditional Taijiquan.

“Whole body force” gives the impression that the practitioner uses his whole body weight to back up his attack, such as a punch or a shoot. While this is effective in external arts like Boxing and Wrestling where weight and size are determining factors, in genuine, traditional Taijiquan, this is discouraged because, amongst other disadvantages, it makes it easier for the opponent to unbalance you, and it hampers your application of internal force.

Kaitain might have confused “whole body force” with the concept of “whole body movement” in genuine, traditional Taijiquan. When a Taijiquan practitioner explodes force, or fa-jing, for example, he may employ “whole body movement”, expressed in classical terms as “starting from the back leg, controlled by the rotation of the waist, and explode in the hand”.

This means that when a practitioner explodes force in Taijiquan, as demonstrated by my Sifu in the pattern “Single Whip”, the movement originates from his back foot, spirals up his legs, controlled by his waist, and the internal force channels from his dan tian through his body and arm, and explodes out in his palm as he strikes. Although it is a palm strike, the whole body is in motion.

This is the fundamental stage in exploding force, or fa-jing. What is involved is not just all body mechanics, as Kaitain mistakenly claims, but energy flow. At an intermediate stage, while whole body movement is still used, the practitioner minimizes the movement, with the result that on-lookers may just see a slight twisting of his body as he strikes his palm. At the advanced stage, little body movement is used and the practitioner can explode much internal force at close range by just flexing his palm. This was probably what Kaitain saw in my Sifu’s demonstration, and because of his ignorance he mistakenly called it “segmental force”.

[yeniseri]

unique

Robin,

Your training is indeed different but your words are too kind so i must be gracious!

it was stated that "In other words, using genuine, traditional Taijiquan, a small-sized, elderly woman can beat a hefty young man. This, of course, shows the application of internal force" this is alos a misnomer. you talk about combat but that is a far reality for most, so as an extension, an elderly woman beating a hefty young man is a stretch (at least for me). It may be common in your part of the woods so I apologize beforehand if I seem unconvinced.

Energy flow, is a bogus goal becaise even the fat lady has energy flow, albeit stagnant evidenced by limited mobility, muscular stiffness, tiredness and inability to perform daily living tasks.

I will admit I will probably need more of your type of experience to acknowledge your logical statements but that is a long way off so I salute your approach.

[joko]

Energy flow, is a bogus goal becaise even the fat lady has energy flow, albeit stagnant evidenced by limited mobility, muscular stiffness, tiredness and inability to perform daily living tasks.

No, it is not a 'bogus' goal.
Sure, everything that is alive has energy flow .
In our WahNam family, when energy flow is mentioned, it means uninterrupted energy flow.

It is an abbreviated phrase, somewhat similar to the abbreviated expression of 'Opening chakra' in Yoga. In fact, every living human has open chakras, if any one is closed, he will cease to live. So 'opening chakra' means to free the chakra from any blockage.
(Chakra means centre of energy.)

Joko

[yeniseri]

meaning and words

joko,

Thanks.
Now I am a little more enlightened but if I tell someone that they something wrong with their energy flow, it is still a vague notion.
My objective reference is not to start there but to point to postural problems and how to correct them than to say to someone that their energy flow is messed up! because it means nothing by itself.

my view only and no one else's, i think
am i the only one with this problem, i guess? comments are appreciated

[Robin]

Energy flow, Internal force?

Hi Yeniseri,

Hope you are well.

Earlier you said,



“energy flow is a modern embellishment and has nothing to do with taijiquan”.



Then you said,



“you talk about combat but that is a far reality for most, so as an extension, an elderly woman beating a hefty young man is a stretch (at least for me).”



Now you have a rare opportunity to experience both energy flow and combat application in Taijiquan, if you are a Taijiguan instructor.



Many practitioners would be very happy if they could experience energy flow and combat application after 5 years of Taijiquan learning. Now you can experience them in a 4-day Taijiquan course given by my Sifu at the

<a href="http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4499">England Summer Camp</a> in July. But this course is open only to Taijiquan instructors.



At first I was amazed at the generosity of my Sifu. Now I am more amazed at the ego of some instructors. They talk about overcoming ego, but their ego is so big that they rather miss a rare opportunity than learn from another master.

[yeniseri]

buena idea

Robin,

Thanks. As I teach taijiquan for health conditions I use an achievable goal that can be manifested as part of a step by step process.

I personally think that being honest with people on what they can achieve is a good thing so I do admire Sifu Wong's objective criteria for learning and that is positive.

[HugoDarien]

What is genuine, traditional Taijiquan?

I do admire Sifu Wong's objective criteria for learning and that is positive.

GOOD GOOD my friend yeniseri

Adiós

[Baguamonk1]

Again you missed the point. Katain did not say BJJ, or a flying knee IS taiji, he said he can still be using the TAIJI principles while doing these things....This is the problem, we seperate arts according to their appearanace and qualities, when in reality, we all have only one or two legs and the variations sometimes might be great, or small. I can use a flying knee with taiji mechanics too, to outsiders, it will look like a flying knee, but to me, I am using the intention, breath, body co-ordination. and mechanics taiji to achieve it.

When I see a good fighter, he is a good fighter period. The difference between two styles is not the difference between two animals. A cow can't do anything about being a cow, he just is. We can choose to expand our "stylistic" repetouire in any way we wan't, I can apply taiji to even changing a tire, or standing, sitting, opening a door. I could apply taiji to boxing if I wanted, Bruce Lee did. That is why he said what was important was principles..not the outerform, nor the "techniques" (they are there to help understand), if you rely solely on these, then you will find yourself highly limited.

If you think sitting in some low gong bu stance with long elongated postures, and throwing a snake hand into someone's throat to something as simple as a punch is ideal, genunine, traditional taijiquan then that is your preference. You can step to the side slightly redirect the punch (get him off balance through his movement) and then just fajing, and that is taiji quan too. But there is no super-low gong bu stance, or elongated posture, just doing what is efficient energy and martial wise. The greatest masters rarely move alot during push hands because it becomes so easy to exploit the opponents imbalance and posture that the student ends up throwing himself. To me, the effectiveness in taijiquan is not in elongated postures, or fancy techniques, but rather in its core principles. Which can be shown in almost anything, even just taking a step forward and backwards. An old teacher of mine was teaching me a form, and he was doing it. He kept telling me to shift weight here, shift weight there, move whole body over there..only I could not really see him doing it that well. He told me that once you get at a high enough level, ,you no longer have to move, or visibly shift weight to achieve the same result. Because you are so in-tune and sensitive to it, you do exactly what it takes, which is why there are smaller frame styles with shorter stances.

How can you not see how to apply taiji to wrestling? Sticking, adhering, following, leading, peng, ji, an, lu, etc. Can ALL be used in wrestling. Even when your on the ground you can do this, decide to be natural and instead of using the thought process to choose what to do next, use your sensitivity and whole body connection. How can you claim to understand core taiji principles and classics when this is not apparent? ALL the taiji principles can be used in boxing...and I mean real boxing not sport boxing. This is what he means by sectional power, and focusing too much on outer form. you can fajing from a standing position..that is taijiquan. Since when do you have to be in a low gong bu/mabu stance to apply taijiquan principles?

You can even make up your strikes and still adhere to ALL taijiquan principles. Its actually very simple...But people seem to rely on taijiquan as if it is something seperate, a seperate tool, when ideally it can be come something very natural, something that is there at all times. The "Silk reeling" and silk worm principle can be used in infinite combinations in striking and movement, wether its in a half-gong bu half-horse (chen's typical stance), or wether its in a standing position, chop, block, forearm, kao, anything.

One thing I've realized, is even with many many years of TJQ experience, you are not invincible, and even an untrained fighter can get the jump on you..

[Andrew]

Baguamonk1,

You are in Dallas (according to your profile) right? That is in Texas, USA right? Kaitain (Paul) is in Brighton, UK. Isn't it a bit presumptuous of you to tell everyone here what Paul wants to say? Maybe you got it right -- but maybe you didn't. But hiding behing Paul, pushing him forward as the person who is presenting these ideas, is a classic use of "Use a borrowed knife to kill". Do you have something against him? If you want to present your ideas here, please do so. But please don't attempt to hide behind Kaitain and use him as your shield.

Back to the other portions of your post. You consider that using Taijiquan principles in other pursuits or endeavours make these into Taijiquan. (Do correct me if I misunderstood that). So now you are performing Taijiquan when changing a tire. Most amusing .

I don't think anyone here will say that Taijiquan principles cannot be applied to other pursuits or endeavours. But this does not make these other pursuits into Taijiquan.

Taijiquan is a complete Art. As such, as with the Shaolin Kung Fu which I practice, it does not need to borrow techniques from other arts (such as boxing, wrestling, BJJ) to make it complete. Does this mean that a Taijiquan practitioner may not use techniques from another martial art or martial sport? Of course not. Does it mean that he may not apply the principles of his Art to techniques of other styles? No. But if he has enough understanding of the Art he practices and the depth of skill required, he has no need to borrow from these other styles.

I am quite sure that the great Masters of Taijiquan of the past would laugh at the idea of borrowing techniques. But they, of course, had the skills to apply the techniques they already had. It would seem that the vast majority of the modern practitioners have lost (or never had) the necessary skill set. Rather than attempting to rediscover or, even better, search for a true Master who had these skills and could pass them on, they then borrow the techniques from the other Arts so that they can also say "We do Taiji and we can fight". What they say, of course is true. But what they cannot say is "We do Taijiquan and can use it effectively in combat".

Again, I don't think many would claim that everyone who does Taiji and uses other techniques for fighting is a bad fighter. In fact I am sure there are some great fighters out there who do exactly this (as with some "Shaolin Kung Fu" fighters). But when they are fighting, they are not doing Taijiquan.

Got to get off to the airport now.

Andrew

[MoMoJuice]

Dear Baguamonk,

but to me, I am using the intention, breath, body co-ordination. and mechanics taiji to achieve it.

So then other martial artists can say they are practicing Taiji too because they are using intention, breath and body coordination.

I can apply taiji to even changing a tire, or standing, sitting, opening a door.

For me, I would say my Tai Chi Chuan practice helps me do my daily work and play better. If I'm carrying something heavy or doing lots of physical work, I can say I'm applying my Chi Kung skills to help me perfom better and for a longer peroid of time. I wouldn't say I'm applying my Taiji to do those chores, it's a martial art after all.

Of course for Taiji dancers and people who have never experienced high level chi kung, I can understand that chi kung, taiji, and even boxing might all be the same to them

I could apply taiji to boxing if I wanted, Bruce Lee did. That is why he said what was important was principles..not the outerform, nor the "techniques" (they are there to help understand), if you rely solely on these, then you will find yourself highly limited.

Yes, the techniques are limited only to people who can't or do not know how to apply them. The past masters did not spend the last 1000 years or more developing and improving those forms so that people would just disregard them and use boxing and taekwondo kicks.

A true internal martial arts master at 60 years old would be much more powerful than when he was 30 (this statement might surprise taiji dancers of course). Bruce Lee was a great external martial artist, if he was alive now he would be 66 years old, I don't think he would be as fast, powerful, or effective as when he was half his age.

Bruce Lee applying Taiji in Boxing

When Bruce Lee used to go back to Hong Kong to visit, he used to spar with his older Wing Chun Kung Fu brother (I forgot his name), and his Kung Fu brother would defeat him every time. Why didn't his taiji+karate+taekwondo+boxing etc help him defeat his "limited" Wing Chun brother?

How can you not see how to apply taiji to wrestling? Sticking, adhering, following, leading, peng, ji, an, lu, etc. Can ALL be used in wrestling.

If you are applying Taiji, then you are applying Taiji. Wrestling and Taiji and not the same thing.

Since when do you have to be in a low gong bu/mabu stance to apply taijiquan principles?

Since I realized the martial effectiveness and power of those stances

One thing I've realized, is even with many many years of TJQ experience, you are not invincible, and even an untrained fighter can get the jump on you..

It is very sad but true. Most Taiji dancers would get beat up by any martial artist from any other style, and like you said, even an untrained guy can beat them up. Of course, real Tai Chi Chuan is different, you only need to train (persistently) for a few years, to be able to defeat not only normal guys but also many black belts from other styles.

Respectfully,

P.S Attached are pictures of Yang Cheng-Fu performing Single Whip. The first picture was when he was younger (notice how his bow-arrow stance is similar to what we perform in Shaolin Wahnam), the second picture when he was older after he made changes to the form (bow-arrow not as low), and the third is Yang Cheng-Fu demonstrating the application for single whip, bow-arrow is low again

[yeniseri]

&quot;well&quot; as jack said to jill

it was stated that "A true internal martial arts master at 60 years old would be much more powerful than when he was 30" but this is not so. Power in IMA is either overestimated and underestimated in that a skillful master uses the momentum of the other as opposed to 'power' (perhaps use of the word power is just semantics!).
The other put force on left so empty right and use his impetus within the peng,lu, ji, an, kao, etc scenario.

Shuaijiao (wrestling generically speaking) does have elements of peng, lu, ji, an so it is not far fetched that these cannot be applied!
Mabu is a training stance. To say that an application is to be applied from that stance only or gongbu is not realistic! Is one going to hop from mabu to another mabu to apply/react!

[joko]

It was stated that "A true internal martial arts master at 60 years old would be much more powerful than when he was 30" but this is not so.

Do we forget that we have a clear example in this very forum?

Sifu Wong is now at his 60's, and I am convinced that he is much more powerful than Sifu Korahais or Sifu Marcus, or Sifu Andrew Barnett, who are at their prime age of 30's.
(with the assumption that 30 years ago sifu Wong was as powerful as the other Sifus in their 30's mentioned above, or even presumably less poweful. Perhaps our seniors could elaborate on this)

Regards,
Joko

[Antonius]

perhaps use of the word power is just semantics

It is definitely not a matter of semantics. Skill in technique is a separate issue. Sifu Wong is far more powerful than me, and this power is palpable. You can feel it. For example, Sifu Wong can break an arm with a gentle-looking block. That is not a matter of technique. It is internal force developed over decades. I can perform the technique exactly as my sifu does, but I cannot break an arm yet. But by the time I am in my 60s, I am sure that I will be able to break an arm with the same technique.

Yeniseri, the way you have written about internal force tells me that you have never had direct experience with it. No one with direct experience of this kind of power would ever describe it as "semanitcs." As someone else mentioned earlier, I would highly recommend that you attend Sifu's class when he comes to the US. Within just a few days, you will be able to feel for yourself that internal force is more than an matter of semantics.