Following Instructions

[Tom L]

Hi,

Yes, I've been reading this thread occasionally. I really am attacking Sifu Wong's system. I think there's a major problem with it from its very basis. It teaches self-manifested chi movement. While doing that, one is often unaware of one's movements and position, as one is moving around a lot. In this scenario, qi easily rises to the head, causing mental-related problems. If practiced for a while, it could lead to serious health problems (as in my case -episodic depression). This is the worst mistake in qigong - to let the qi flow once you begin to feel it a little.

The dynamic patterns in themselves are not great either. During these exercises, you are locking your joints (e.g., the elbow joints during the upward movement of lifting the sky), and then releasing them, causing blood to be trapped and then released. That's not qiqong, that's just blood being trapped and released at the joints, with a consequent feeling of swaying due to blood rushing in the body again.

I'm not sure why some people get health benefits from it. My guess is that it can be like an enjoyable dance, so it's a break in one's day where one doesn't have to think about things.

-Tom

[Tom L]

Zhang Wuji,

You asked why I would continue to go on courses if I didn't feel like I benefited? Well, after going home from the first course (which was a regional), practicing a while (about 7 months), experiencing a decline in outcomes and feeling unwell, I thought I would go for the big one - the intensive course - and relearn the things and definitely "get it" then. The same thing happened. After some time (about 8 months), I noticed a decline in outcomes. Plainly, I felt quite unwell. This time though, more unwell. Looking back, I rationalized my 2nd course taking, thinking, "well, I paid xxxx money for the England trip; I loved the [image in the] books; I think I can budget another $xxxx because I really think I will be healthy for the rest of my life; I want to go to Malaysia and really do super-qigong!". Also, for this second course, I went on some of the same sources for validation - I looked towards the forums, and the websites to see other people's support for it. There I found people saying the intensive course is just so much better than the regional courses. I thought, oh yeah, I gotta do this. And so I went.

When I did make it to Malaysia, I really didn't think it was that much better. Actually, I liked the regional course better. I felt I pretty much learned the same things as before, and it questioned what was significantly different. It seemed subtle at the time, and now I realized it's really about the same. It was a downer. And also, one person in my group didn't feel the qi sensations during the course until the last session of the last day, and another close to that too if I remember.

I'm trying to say that I don't think the Wahnam image painted by Wong in his books and website is for real. I think people can look for ways to justify their practice of this system, but it comes down to rationalization of expenses, effort, time input, and/or belief system.

-Tom

[barrys]

Tom,

If I had to guess, you are enjoying hoping to make people angry. Enjoy the fact that you've found something that works for you.

Best,

Barry

[Zhang Wuji]

I think there's a major problem with it from its very basis. It teaches self-manifested chi movement. While doing that, one is often unaware of one's movements and position, as one is moving around a lot. In this scenario, qi easily rises to the head, causing mental-related problems.

OK, now i see why you made those comments. I did ask my Taijiquan instructor about Self-manifested movement (zifa gong) and he said that the real danger is letting yourself get out of control so one usually practises it when the master is around, who can lead you back.

Maybe I am being presumptuous or something, but I do know where the qi is at any one point, and I know what it is doing.

I feel that zifa gong may give the impression of creating mental problems because its cleansing effects are so powerful. I mentioned elsewhere that I get roller-coaster emotions and was giddy for a week. So maybe that can be interpreted as a danger sign of the hazards of zifa gong. But at the same time, I notice a marked improvement in my temprement after zifa gong, so I am rooting for it. Speaking personally, I really love zifa gong, and I have become a nicer person to be with as a result of practising it, I would respectfully disagree with it being flawed. Jesus put it best when he said that one judged by the fruit the tree bears.

You may wish to pick up this book by Ken Cohen "The Way of Qigong" where he included a section on self-manifested qi as taught by Master Liang Shouyu, author of QIgong Empowerment. If you read Chinese, I would be happy to forward you some stuff in Chinese about zifa gong, which is quite mainstream in China.

That's not qiqong, that's just blood being trapped and released at the joints, with a consequent feeling of swaying due to blood rushing in the body again.-Tom

But that is exactly what happens in Hunyuan Taijiquan or other real Taijiquan when you do fixed stances or posture training. Single Whip for one, has a straight arm extension (those who keep a rounded elbow do not understand the qi movements of this posture)

But even if it is blood being trapped and released, that is not departing from its qigong root. Those specific movements are what force the qi to move in a certain manner anyway. And do remember, blood and qi are intertwined in TCM. The way the blood flows will affect qi flow as well.

I'm not sure why some people get health benefits from it. My guess is that it can be like an enjoyable dance, so it's a break in one's day where one doesn't have to think about things.-Tom

Hey, I don't know either. But I do agree it is a really enjoyable dance.

Anyway, hope you enjoy your qigong practice. May it lead you to greater things and to help others do the same.

Wuji

[Chiahua]

Okay, so Wahnam qigong did not work out for you, which sucks because you invested a goodly amount of money in them. It's true that people will value an object or experience differently if he or she invests lots of time or money for it. In fact, that's one of the justifications that Sifu Wong provides for pricing the courses the way he does (see question 4). But Sifu Wong is also running a business. And sometimes the business fails satisfy all its customers. This would all be rather galling, but I read over and over again that Sifu Wong is a nice guy, generous with his teaching etc. You might read up on another person's disappointment with the courses on this forum if you haven't already.

one is often unaware of one's movements and position...

I thought that in self manifested chi movement one was supposed to be very aware of what was going on, just not attach oneself to the sensations?

you are locking your joints (e.g., the elbow joints during the upward movement of lifting the sky), and then releasing them, causing blood to be trapped and then released. That's not qiqong, that's just blood being trapped and released at the joints, with a consequent feeling of swaying due to blood rushing in the body again.

As I understand it, Hunyuan Taijiquan also incorporates alot of qigong training. What aspect of the Hunyuan Taijiquan system do you enjoy, as opposed to the Wahnam system? By what set of criteria did you determine that this was the superior system? Couldn't the Hunyuan qigong also be a clever means of manipulating blood flow to create different sensations? When you are training under your current system, do you feel you have more "real" sensations of chi?
It sucks that you are dissatisfied. Hope you find better results with your current practice. Maybe it will help cleanse any sense of ill will.

[Zhang Wuji]

And also, one person in my group didn't feel the qi sensations during the course until the last session of the last day, and another close to that too if I remember.

Thanks for your sharing and satisfying my curiosity. If you read my other posts, I reported the same thing that some never felt the qi throughout and others like me only felt it on the last day. And I did say none of us went in with closed minds or hearts. One participant in particular seemed like he gained nothing, but he was certainly acting a little more open on the final day, even though he manifested zero qi movements. When I first saw him, I could sense his great unhappiness but he did not exude the same aura 3 days later.

I would therefore go as far as to say one may not get any benefits at the course itself, like some of my fellow participants did, but a few months later?
If participants did not feel the course met its objectives, they are free not to pay the fees, as Shifu openly declares.
Not sure if anyone has not paid the course fees at the end if they felt nothing. Maybe they felt embarrased at not paying (which is silly if you really feel cheated) or more likely, they felt the first almost imperceptible signs of something greater.

[Andrew]

Tom,

I think you will have noticed by now that pretty much everyone here is saddened by your attacks. But it remains at that --- sadness and not anger. There is also pitty and sympathy being shown at the lack of success from your practice of Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung. What is surprising most of all (at least for me), however, is your new found aggression. I hope your current training will help in this department and, as has been mentioned before, wish you success in your chosen practice.

Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung may not "work" for everyone. Sifu's method may not "work" for everyone. Not every student may "get it". But the fact remains that the vast majority of people who have taken courses in Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung and then practiced diligently have received benefits from the practice.

Maybe compare Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung with sex!! If a couple wants to have a child they will perform the necessary "actions" to the best of their ability. If the woman does not conceive does this mean that sex doesn't work? Of course not. It merely means that not everything was as it should have been for conception.

Andrew

[Luo Lang]

Tom,

I really am attacking Sifu Wong's system

Somehow I have already noticed that. It is your right to say what's not good, what you don't like as long as it remains in a calm and respectful manner. Everybody appreciates your comments and your open mind.

. I think there's a major problem with it from its very basis. It teaches self-manifested chi movement. While doing that, one is often unaware of one's movements and position, as one is moving around a lot. In this scenario, qi easily rises to the head, causing mental-related problems. If practiced for a while, it could lead to serious health problems (as in my case -episodic depression). This is the worst mistake in qigong - to let the qi flow once you begin to feel it a little

The very basis of Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung is leading back to the southern Shaolin temple and to the teachings of Boddhidarma.
You have problem with Self-Manifested chi movements. Somehow you got problems, somehow you found another Chi Kung Master, somehow it's working for you. That is the point IT IS WORKING FOR YOU, and obviously very well. That's good and we all are really happy, and that is my serious truth.
But: To complain about something or attacking something is as said o.k.But to tell others what with the system is not working and why it is not working and to teach others with a wisdom of a Master is not o.k. I am pretty sure that all what you have written here was told by somebody else who has another view of things
Seflmanifested Chi Kung exercises are very effective and very good healing exercises. Maybe you should read some classics about that stuff. I have had really awesome flows with extremely extravagant movements, but I was never really unaware of any of the movements: Beeing in a chi kung state of mind does absolutely not mean that somebody is unaware: it means that you are extremely aware, realising, one pointed mind. That's the same in self manifested chi movements

During these exercises, you are locking your joints

Somehow you really misunderstood the exercises. Do you really know what the word locking in therapy language mean??? Have really ever have locked a joint?

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hello Everybody,

I have a question. Is this new Tom the same Tom I met in Brighton, the same nice guy who used to write posts like:

thank you all

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Shaolin brothers and sisters,

I wanted to say thank you all for how kind you have been to me, either on this forum, or via email, or telephone. You have really helped me out, and I feel very blessed. Being in this community makes me feel at ease, knowing I can come and ask questions about practice or life. Since Sifu advised a change in my practice, I feel like a hundred worries have floated away, and a hundred doors have opened. I feel happy inside and friendly outside. My best wishes to you all in your training and in your lives.

Thank you so much Sifu for your generous teaching. You work wonders! And deeply, thank you God or Buddha.

Smiling from the heart,
Tom

Dear Tom,

I hope that you find your smile again soon and I wish you all the best in your search for peace and happiness. Please remember to refer to Sifu Wong in a way that is acceptable to the many instructors and students of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute (the vast majority delighted with their daily Qigong training) who read this forum.


Lets be clear about a couple of things: (Schon von dir erwaehnt Rolo und zwar schoen)

The joints are not locked when performing Lifting the Sky, they are opened!

The practitioner should always be in complete control of his or her self manifested Qi flow. This is an important skill taught during the courses.

Enjoy your training everybody. Here is a photo from a recent course in Spain. What a fantastic 11 days! I particularly remember having lunch with about 10 Spanish practitioners one day. Lauren and I both could tell that they all practise regularly and indeed, during lunch we heard of many wonderful experiences learning and training Qigong in Spain and Malaysia.

[Marcus]

Hello Tom,

I also met you in Brighton on the "regional" course and enjoyed a drink with you in the hotel the night before. I only discovered this thread today, due to organising Sifu's Nottingham course I don't get as much access to the forum as I would like at the moment.

From reading your words I sense you are very upset and I wish I was smart enough to be able to offer some words that would help you to find a satisfactory resolution to this situation. As I am unable to, I shall do the next best thing and offer you my sincere best wishes.

I'd like to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to pen this reply. You see as I read through the thread I could feel my anger rising at some of the things you wrote. I've enjoyed working through this and it's been a valuable lesson for me. Thanks Tom.

I hope you continue to post on the forum and I trust you will find the peace you are searching for.

Fare thee well Tom

Marcus




Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Tom L]

Good luck too, you all.

[Chi Addict]

Some thoughts

Hi guys,

Just joined this forum and found this thread interesting.

I'm practicing another system of qigong though. I sometimes have some doubts of my own too. We all do don't we?

But then again i still derive benefits from it. Like feeling the chi ( i call it being flooded with endorpins,heh.) being much less prone to anger and resolving my nose allergies.

The thing is, i still feel sleepy if i get less than 8 hrs of sleep for a few days straight. I have a tendency to "nod" off to sleep if i get tired(or bored).
I notice some people don't even if they lack sleep. Go figure.

My sifu says that what you eat is important as well, besides doing qigong. So far my food intake is not exactly very healthy .....so maybe that's the problem?

What do you guys think?

[Andrew]

First off, welcome to the forum and thanks for your post. To avoid this particular thread going off topic (again ), maybe you would be better to start a new thread so that your questions could be better taken care of.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Luo Lang]

The dynamic patterns in themselves are not great either. During these exercises, you are locking your joints (e.g., the elbow joints during the upward movement of lifting the sky), and then releasing them, causing blood to be trapped and then released. That's not qiqong,

that's just blood being trapped and released at the joints

, that's just blood being trapped and released at the joints.

None of the arterias in the ellbow joint will be trapped while keeping it straight: None!! Why: because it's - let's say - out of 99,9% of the people anatomically not possible!! Before you just write something down, please inform yourself seriously, otherwise it could be emberassing.

"That's not qiqong, that's just blood being trapped and released at the joints, with a consequent feeling of swaying due to blood rushing in the body again"

Where is the blood when it's not in the body?
Everytime I stand with the knees extended I lock the knee arteria? So, everytime I bend my knees and release it I start to sway away cause of bloodrushing again? Everytime I extend my little finger and rebend it my arm starts to sway? Seriously, please read that again, think about it and you will find yourself smiling.

I can really understand your disappointment Tom. I am really sorry that you couldn't benefit as you expected. But please, don't write such a nonsense down. It is ridiculous. As you maybe noticed: there are some people on this forum with a little medical-scientific backround.

Good luck too, you all

I wish you all the best and I wish that you get healthy and happy.

I sometimes have some doubts of my own too. We all do don't we?

I have had some doubts too. I think tha's absolutely normal. I have realised that in my case it is part of my emotionalcleancing. My whole life was a doubt.

Respectfully

Roland

[Zhang Wuji]

I was thinking about Tom's comment about the dynamic patterns, and though I instinctively felt he was wrong, I could not put a finger on it, unlike those with medical knowledge.

But it hit me last night that these dynamic patterns resemble very much (or may even be) part of the Baduan Jin. And Baduan Jin is THE mainstream qigong in China with full backing from all qigong masters even if they don't practice it. I pulled out all my books in English and Chinese on Baduan Jin and found that there is also that so-called "locking" of joints. So, we are definitely not some unorthodox sect. But guess we all already knew that.....