That was Zen, this is Tao!

[Sifu Stier]

Dear Barry:

You are complicating these matters beyond a needed measure. Taoist's believe that there is strength in simplicity! The more one complicates things, the less likely it is that they will work well as time goes on.

It is very, very easy for people of superb intellect and considerable academic training to 'over-think' and 'over-analyze' all of this. I would encourage you to 'think less, observe and feel more'. You want to control the process though intellectual analysis, academic logic, and conscious reasoning as viewed from within the parameters of self-limiting personal discrimination and value judgement. Beyond a point, however, this becomes an impediment to understanding because such intellectual exercises are the domain of the conscious 'waking' mind, the smallest part of the mind.

The greater part of the mind is the domain of the deeper subconscious mind, which our conscious intellectual acumen cannot easily control. Each person's individual 'Tao' is manifested primarily from this deeper mind where automatic reactions and spontaneous responses reside. The home of memory and emotion stored on the internal 'hard-drive disk'. Thus, any attempt to truly understand the core nature of personal cycles, and any attempt to control same through conscious manipulation is doomed to frustration and failure! That which you hope to embrace will elude you so long as you insist on 'wrapping your mind around it'. You can't force yourself to understand, but can only allow yourself to understand! The proper use of the conscious mental faculties is in choosing that which will more readily allow subconscious insight and contemplative illumination to come to you, without struggle, without effort. Quiet, meditative, prayerful, introspective time spent everyday allowing the Spirit and Energy of Tao to flow through you.

The I-Ching, Classic of Change, says that 'The Superior Man does nothing, yet nothing is left undone!' Hmmm! Please don't give this any thought!

[Zen R Ridge]

Simple

Not sure that this is relevant here!

But i will add my comment.

Refering to Sifustiers comments regarding the Tao and simplicity, in my view a state shared well by Zen buddhists!

Simplicity is the key to everything, literally in my view, you are streassed foir whatever reason, or annoyed because of some person, however lets take a closer look at the problem or situation!

Lets say you are annoyed because you are rushing to get to work, the train is packed the people walk slow and move from side to side, but they do not move how you intend!
Oh yes i have been here, allready you have not starytedwork but you are boiling with anger, "why are these people so incompetant, why can't they move like me, WHAT IS THEIR PROBLEM" (uf you have not become a pyscho murderer already, you soon will do). (pardon me my senseless humor)

Anyway, lets take a step back, your rushing to work, so YOU are in a hurry, not these people walking slowly, or even lessquicker than you.
You are late, not these people. etc etc etc.

Now lets look from the other persons view.
My god that guy must be in a rush, almost barged me over.
He bumped me first, why cant he see i am standing here.

!!!!!I dont mean to be so blatantr simple with my posts bu, do you see what forms here, you teh guy in a rush or whatever is causing the problem, your bumoing into them as well as them bumoing into you, this person is in the same place you are, but probably not as stressed as you are feeling.

And now to the point Simplicity!!!! Leave earlyier simple very very imple!!!

Has you left 5 minutesearlier than you did, then you would not be in a rush, you would not walk so fast, that you bump into others, you would not get stressed because the person walsk a little slower than you. Actually you would probably trundle along slower than they enjoying the moments you have walking to work.


I see the Tao and Buddhists as very similar, whilst their religion/phenominal beliefs are different, their ultimate goals and workinsg arethe same. Loving kindnesss, good karma brings good karma back, good energy will give good energy back etc.

Metta

Zen

Ps these aresimple opinions, my opinions, ramblings that i have nearly every day all day, but they are mine, i hope no one takes offense to my opinions and if they do, understand they ar e my opinions only.

[Zen R Ridge]

Sorry

I immediatly appologisefor my attrocious spellling mistakes in my past post, and well all of them infact, my english truly is quite good but my laziness exceeds my skill!!!1

[chiron]

I think your thoughts are great!. I once left a very cleansing and purging type class, wracked with pain and exhaustion though, when the doors closed on the tube I literally stood back and watched myself scream so loud the carraige was silenced. I never really considered myself a stressed person until that day, so now when I wake up, the first thing I do is run and exercise otherwise I wouldn't want to meet me on a train or some other unsuspecting place where that sort of energy bursts out. I totally hate those times though where it feels like it's every other sods fault you haven't got inner calm. Stress is dangerous because you really haven't got control of your reactions, I am pleased that you're looking at it from different views. it really made me laugh when you wrote 'what is wrong with all these people, why are they all so incompetant' it's just funny to see how useless and incorrect a thought like that is. and I'm going to carry on with preventative stress therapy!

[barrys]

Sifu Stier,

Thank you for the reminder. Part of the approach I used to get over an alcohol addiction was "Made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him". Conscious decision to let go. It comes and goes.

Barry

[Sifu Stier]

I just want to clarify that the Taoism referred to here is the original and pure
philosophical and spiritual Taoism, not the later Religious Taoism which blends
traditional ethnic folk beliefs and superstitions, magical incantations and rituals, and so forth, with the original Taoism of Lao-tzu, Chuang-tzu, Mo-tzu, and others. Since the same name, Taoism, is often used to refer to both, it can sometimes be a bit confusing! In reference to religious Taoism, my Master always said....."I don't recommend it, but merely point it out!"

[Antonius]

Just to play the devil's advocate...

道可道非常道
名可名非常名

The Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao....

[barrys]

Just to play Devils advocate to Devils advocate -

"When I finally saw what he was trying to show me, I was speechless. Whenever I tried to speak of it, I could not find the words ... I said, finally, "We can't talk about this". And he said, "You have to say something. If you don't speak, nobody will understand". Steve Hagens comments on his time with Katagiri Roshi.

Warmest regards,

Barry

[Antonius]

I agree with you, of course, Barry. If Lao Zi didn't see a need to "say something," he wouldn't have written down the Dao De Jing at all.

On the other hand, I don't think we can underestimate the importance of his sounding a warning about the limitations of words and names in the very first line of his classic text.

[Sifu Stier]

You are very funny guys indeed! However, this is not the 'comedy' thread!

As stated in a previous post, no attempt is being made and none will be made here to define the exact nature of Tao, as It is ultimately indefinable and inexpressible. We seek only to discuss the manifestations of Tao as observed in the realm of Nature and the world we now live in!

[Antonius]

Sifu Stier, I did not mean to veer off topic with humor. I was actually trying to respond to this comment:

I just want to clarify that the Taoism referred to here is the original and pure
philosophical and spiritual Taoism, not the later Religious Taoism....

The point I was trying to make, which admittedly may have been muddled by my penchant for humor (), was this:

An argument could be made that there is no such thing as an "original and pure" Taoism, at least not one that can be discussed with words.

[Sifu Stier]

Equally so, it may be said that Tao encompasses All That Is Within the Pureness of the Undifferentiated and Indefinable Oneness of Original Divine Nature!

[barrys]

Sifu Stier,

I am sorry if these posts sounded disrespectful. There wasn't any thought of this for me.

I think it is a marvellous dilemma that sometimes the most wonderful things that have happened to me surpass explanation but that if I didn't try to pass them on I couldn't benefit others. It risks misunderstanding but that is the problem with words. I guess that is why direct transmission is best. People experience it in every way.

I am off to meet some people later - some of who are happy and some who are struggling with life. I will try to pass on in my own limited way how things have got better for me and what my life is like now. Who knows what anyone will get from it but I do know from experience that I feel better about making the attempt.

Best,

Barry

[Antonius]

I think the sentiment is a wonderful one, Barry. It shows real compassion. And I think your words show not only compassion, but wisdom. You show not only a willingness to help, but also a willingness to not help!

The danger, in my opinion, is when the zeal to help turns into proselytizing. I think this is the beauty of both Zen Buddhism and Taoism -- that neither tradition advocates aggressive coversion to its views. Although there are probably better and worse interpretations of these traditions, it is still every person's prerogative to interpret them in his or her own way -- or not at all!

If someone would like help understanding the philosophies, then those who can help certainly should, as Sifu Stier has generously done with us here. Or we can help in other, subtle ways, like giving some of our energy to our grandmother without any talk of Taoism or Buddhism. But similarly, if someone doesn't want help, or if someone is unable to receive our help for some reason, then we do not force our views or our help on them.

So I think we have to be midnful when we talk about "this" or "that" kind of Taoism, even though it is obviously a necessity in discussions like this one. This is precisely why I felt inspired to insert a comment about the opening lines of the Dao De Jing. I think that the wisdom in those lines is incredible.

As a Westerner, I find it fascinating that both Zen Buddhism and Taoism warn extensively about the dangers of words and names. In Taoism, we have the very first lines of the classic text, the Dao De Jing, which I quoted above. In Buddism, we have sayings like:

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

I remember reading this for the first time as a teenager and thinking, "What is this strange religion that advocates killing its founder?!?" Years later, I began to appreciate the subtle genius.

Bodhidharma, the first patriarch of Zen (Chan) Buddhism, told the monks at the Shaolin Temple to burn the holy sutras! His reason? The main point of his teaching was that we should not to be tied down with words and texts, but that we should experience Zen directly through our daily practice.

[Charles David]

Two cent Poker

Hello All, Brothers Sisters Friends,

What an interesting thread! Thank you for your contributions!
Yes, we all struggle and dance with words don't we? What are the options?
Not struggling, not dancing? Not REALLY an option for us now is it?
Most entertaining.

Sifu Stier, most helpful is your distinction between talking ABOUT TAO and talking about The Manifestations of Tao.

The emphasis on NATURALNESS is paramount, it seems to me, in Taoism.

Anthony Siheng, I have shared your surprise in some of the things I have read and heard and thought (or invented) about Zen and Tao.

Barry, one of the many things that Sifu said to us during our Chi Kung Intensive in Sabah was that we should post our experiences and participate in this forum because it would be good for us and for others. It is on the basis of this that I am here. I appreciate your sentiments about wanting to help other people, recognizing that it a powerful way of helping myself. I am also more than happy to have others of greater ability and attainment to help me.
Regarding thinking, the Taoist sage, Kaye, whom I met in a park in Bangkok, passed on some of the teachings of one of his master,who likened thinking
to farting. Natural , I suppose, but something we should only be doing once in a while.

When we get a chance to meet in person I'm sure we will exchange far more than words and ideas. Perhaps before then.

With all of my best thoughts and energies going out to you.

Peripatetically,

cha