Self-Manifested Chi Movement

[Yevin Orion]

Originally posted by drunken boxer
Also, it is unfair of me to expect great results when I practice for 30 mins or an hour a day, when some kungfu masters practised 6 or 7 hours a day.

Well you don't want to overtrain. The key is to train consistently everyday. Sigung said that just doing 15mins of Chi Kung a day is sufficient, but it would preferable to do 2 15min sessions (one in the morning, one in the night). That's all, at least from my understanding

[snowcelt]

Chi flow effects

Hello,

to "Drunken Master", I was also at the course in Dublin and was a bit alarmed at the degree to which some people reacted during their chi flows. I was a bit concerned that some of the people who were jumping about or actually running around the hall were going to crash into me. All the more unnerving when you have your eyes closed and can hear the people around you moving and even making weird sounds. I definitely prefer to practice CK alone although the overall experience of meeting Sifu Wong and Sifu Joan as well as the other people was memorable and really enjoyable.
To the point, I had practiced CK for about one and a half years before going to this course, so I was familiar with what we did. However, being taught directly by Sifu Wong was so much better than reading his books (his books are really clear though as well). Although I experienced swaying and circular movements in Chi flow during the course, I also did not and still do not exhibit any "weird" movements or sounds. Thats just me though. I dont worry about it, I think "Never mind", and just let go. Interestingly, last night my girlfriend saw me swaying and was a bit alarmed at my "extreme swaying movements", which I was not as aware of as my eyes are closed during self-manifested chi flow. Perhaps with practice the exponents sensitivity to the degree of manifestation decreases, or it may simply be that you can "let go" more easily. IMHO, this is testament to Sifu Wongs master teaching ability that people experiencing chi flow for the first time actually moved as much as they did!
Finally, Sifu Wong did say at the course that you only need to do 15 minute sessions tops (twice a day if possible, if not once is fine) with the dynamic patterns, even shorter if you use Dan Tien breathing, as it is more efficient and powerful. Quality not quantity. After all chi kung is to enhance your life, not enslave or control it.

Apologies for the long post,

Tervesiä Suomesta! (Greetings fron Finland),

Kevin.

[Darryl]

Made it ..

Hi Kevin,

Good to hear you made it to one of the Regional courses & even better to hear that you are also still practicing.

Have fun & enjoy yourself

With warmest regards,
Darryl

[drunken boxer]

To Halicryptus,

Thanks for the comments, glad its not just me then.

By the way, do you check your private messages?

[Joan]

Hi to everyone,

I think you may becoming too anxious about other people's chi flows. Everyone is different, what is important is that you feel relaxed, refreshed and peaceful after your own practice.

Only about four or five people who took the Generating Internal Energy course with Sifu in Dublin had practised before. Kevin is one, one of the three guys who ran around and around did the course with me, but the other two 'runners' were 'new' to Shaolin Chi Kung.

Enjoy your own practise, don't go 'looking' to run and jump, if it happens enjoy it , but if it doesn't don't worry If you fall on the ground, enjoy it, if you don't do not worry. Everyone is unique, with different life experiences and blockages, so just:
Close your eyes, breathe gently, Smile from the Heart and don't worry about ANYTHING, just enjoy the gentle swaying movement, if it becomes more vigorous go with it, if it doesn't just enjoy what you are doing in the moment.

I wish you all the very best,
Joan.

[AussieMark]

I understand where you are coming from good friend. I myself didn¡¦t feel a thing when I attended Sifu Wong¡¦s Intensive Chi Kung Course in Brisbane, Australia earlier this year.

Initially, I couldn¡¦t hold back my burgeoning excitement in the days leading up to the course. I was so happy that I would finally be doing something very positive and good for my health and that it would affect those around me and the people whom I loved.

I was sure it was to be a turning point in my life. . .



I had an extremely hard time selling the point to my family. Especially when I confessed that it would cost ¡¥serious¡¦ money (actually I couldn¡¦t quite bring myself to tell them the amount, as I feel they would¡¦ve dis-owned me for doing something so outlandishly ridiculous.) {snip} ¡§Tales of a non-conformist¡¨


I can recall my fathers¡¦ words to me ¡V ¡§¡K all it is, is just positive visualization¡K¡¨ ¡K ¡§No! I¡¦m going to learn something that¡¦s (allegedly) fantastic!¡K priceless ¡KI promise you¡¨


I believed Sifu¡¦s words, that to learn something as priceless as the ¡§great arts¡¨ ¡V you should be willing to sacrifice all that you can¡K And he is absolutely right Of course!

My mother was extremely surprised and disappointed that Sifu would actually be charging such a Huge sum of money to teach the chi kung. I guess it was to her understanding that true ¡§masters¡¨ aren¡¦t in the business of making Big Bucks. But I assured her that even though I too thought it was a little Self-Important; what I would be learning would be priceless, and would cure me of my health problems and that eventually I would teach my family and look after everyone with what I learn.



Speaking from my heart:

I can recall how disappointed I was the first day of the course. I must admit, in hindsight, it was a grave mistake to come with such high expectations. I guess it was my own fault to have had such expectations, but after reading Sifu¡¦s Question and Answer series for years, I was so looking forward to be able to cure myself and learn something so apparently fantastic.

I guess the fact that, all the money I had in my life up until that point (AUD$1800) would be spent in one go was perhaps a contributing factor to my expectations.

For some people a thousand dollars is easy money ¡V it¡¦s nothing for them, but for me, a thousand dollars was all I¡¦ve ever had! So you can imagine, I was really keen to learn!






In my hometown of Zendigo, there is a Shaolin Wahnam Qi Gong Association ¡K Sifu¡¦s own school! How fortuitous! With haste, I attended the small congregation on a dark rainy evening and participated in a session of ¡¥positive visualization¡¦ with some very sick individuals. Then when the session was over, I chatted to one of the instructors who knew practically nothing about chi kung. Then, I was fortunate to meet the ¡§master instructor¡¨ of Shaolin Wahnam Qi Gong Association and I spoke tersely with him. A very fine chap, I queried him about Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. He relayed that Sifu taught there in the Dragon Museum over ten years ago and he learnt from him.

Then he said, and I quote ¡§¡K but then he started asking for too much Money!¡¨ ¡K


¡§Oh really?¡¨ I said somewhat surprised¡K
¡§Yes¡¨ he replied, ¡§He started charging people $100, and that¡¦s ¡K well¡K (shaking his head negatively) ¡K¡¨


What did the master of the school bearing sifu¡¦s insignia convey in such a perversely dissident diatribe contumaciously understating the creed of interesting...???


(If you see it, you see it directly. If you think, you are mistaken!)








By end of the day one of the Bris. intensive course, I realized that all I was doing was ¡¥positive visualization¡¦ ¡K I actually cried.

I had let down my whole family. I even had to borrow money from them. How pathetic. I promised them it would be worth it, that it was really, really important to me. I thought, or believed I was going to learn, or be ¡§initiated¡¨ into learning something really priceless. Something which I could teach the people whom I loved; when all I was doing, were exercises that any ****wit with half a brain could read from out of a book.

I was truly devastated beyond words. I didn¡¦t know what to think. How could I convey my disappointment?

During the chi kung sessions, I did not experience anything in the way of energy; in fact, I had to ¡¥pretend¡¦ to believe it.
I think only once in the very last five minutes on the last day I ¡¥felt something¡¦ ¡K perhaps Sifu took pity on me and blasted me with a heap of energy so that I¡¦d know what I¡¦m missing out on ¡K something that I cannot and have not been able to replicate at home. (Thankyou Sifu!)


I thought that in learning proper chi kung - Real chi kung from a great and rare and magnificent master; ¡¥mind¡¦ would be transferred or led into a state where seeing and directing energy with a single-pointed mind is here and now. And that the ¡¥mind¡¦ will learn or memorize that state ¡V and thus return to it at will at home in one¡¦s own practice and intentionality.

How unfortunate I did not know this beforehand. I thought that would somewhat constitute something of an initiation into Real chi kung. So unfortunately, the chi kung aspect of the course was the same as learning from these imbeciles here in my home town.




It did occur to me that I may be a chi kung-dud. During a self-manifested chi movement, I saw people swaying about and doing this or that and I felt very happy for themƒº. Good for you! ƒº ƒº But when I closed my eyes and let go, nada. ¡K. Let Go ! When I let go, I experienced the same thing you do, i.e. ¡V legs fall to the ground ¡K then nothing. ¡K what a joke right? No. Then it occurred to me, perhaps just as some people are inept at school, I must also be dumb at chi kung.


Apart from my chi kung ineptitude, the course was very beneficial, and I was very emotional. I would like to say that leaving the course, in my heart of hearts, I absolutely love Sifu. I have much affection for him; he is a great and magnificent being. Thankyou Sifu, you are very beautiful.






Over Nine Months have passed since the course, and I have practiced 98 percent of the days. And unfortunately my energy has barely changed. ƒ¼
I have not been cured of any of my ailments. In fact, I had to seek out another master and receive regular treatments from him. Sifu Wong said that the body completely changes and renews itself after 6 months. And that after practicing for six months one should be cured of one¡¦s ailment(s). Unfortunately that hasn¡¦t turned out to be true for my experience. Even though I read it a hundred times on Sifu¡¦s website.
My energy situation is barely any different from before the course to now (37 Weeks). Pallid in disposition, tired and drained - among other things, What the hell am I doing wrong. This ¡§greatest art under heaven¡¨ is it teaching me patience, or that I¡¦m a chi-kung imbecile!


After my daily practice I feel happier, but that is to be expected with ¡§positive visualization¡¨ ¡K

Sometimes, I feel so bitterly disappointed that the ¡¥chi kung¡¦ hasn¡¦t worked, and after all that time, money and consistent effort, I feel almost betrayed.


I¡¦m sorry if I have offended anyone, but this is how I feel. I wish it weren¡¦t so.

To this day, I have not experienced a ¡§chi-flow¡¨ in my practice (what ever that is) I thought I was doing it once, but I realize that I was ¡§wishing¡¨ or making believe ¡V intending my body to move so I wouldn¡¦t feel so devastated.


Thankyou for teaching me though.




Much Affection


God bless,

Mark

[AussieMark]

Apologies for the weird symbols that turned up in the previous post. (Thanks Microsoft) grrrr

[Darryl]

Relaxing

Originally posted by AussieMark
To this day, I have not experienced a ¡§chi-flow¡¨ in my practice (what ever that is) I thought I was doing it once, but I realize that I was ¡§wishing¡¨ or making believe ¡V intending my body to move so I wouldn¡¦t feel so devastated.

Hi Mark,

A very interesting account of a course.

The best advice I can give you is to relax and not worry about your practice. Dont look for things in your practice, dont expect things in your practice and - above all - dont rush your practice.

Take your time, take all the time in the world. 2 minutes spent truly relaxing beats 15 minutes rushed practice.

I have noticed on regional courses that some people spend more time watching to see what other people are doing and then 'duplicate' what they think a chi flow may be. This is a great example of not being relaxed. From reading your post, I would certainly suggest that in futre, you should focus far more on relaxing than on practicing Chi Kung (and yes, you can say that they are the same since the more your relax, the more beneficial your Chi Kung practice will be ).

Being relaxed is not just a case of 'relax the legs and dont think of anything'. (Ironically, people who view this as being relaxed are usually the most tense people in the room). Being relaxed is just that, relaxing. Relax mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually. Don't have expectations of where your training may take you or what you might experience, don't dwell on your thoughts or thinking about thoughts, don't watch the clock and don't wait for something to happen. If you are still, then enjoy the stillness. If you fall to the ground, then relax on the ground. If you feel nothing going on and are not sure if anything is going on, then just enjoy your breathing and enjoy the silence.

In regards to the 'Shaolin Wahnam Qi Gong' classes in Australia, Sifu has taught for many years and in many countries. Not everyone who has learned from Sifu over the years follows Sifu's teachings and advice.

By end of the day one of the Bris. intensive course, I realized that all I was doing was ¡¥positive visualization¡¦ ¡K

I have attended quite a few courses now and have recently started teaching at Sifu's request. At all courses and in all classes, I can quite happily say that you are not learning 'just positive visualisation'. In fact, quite the opposite - 'Don't try to see anything, don't try to visualise anything' is a very common saying in all my classes and is always mentioned at every course I have attended.

As above, my closing advice is to let 'positive visualisation' go, let 'expectations' go, let 'chi flows' go and just relax, Smile and enjoy your practice.

... eventually I would teach my family and look after everyone with what I learn.

This is the first thing I would let go of. Heal yourself before you ever start thinking of healing others.

[Chiahua]

I am not relaxed

Haha, just sort of kidding.
However, and this is pretty ironic, but I'm hung up on "relaxation".
A few years back I wrote Sifu Wong on the subject of "shoong", or relaxation. He noted that any athlete at peak performance is not tense, but relaxed.
I was reading in another thread regarding stance training, Antonius writes that a crucial aspect of sitting in horse stance is sort of an effortful relaxation (sorry if I'm misquoting).
This is a common theme in my classes: effortful relaxation while pushing oneself to go further. This requires lots of concentration, which is not really "letting go". I've also read somewhere on this site that relaxation is not the same thing as "going limp", but that relaxation is alive.
You might understand why it's difficult for me to relax when all these stray thoughts are hopping about wildly in my mind.
In psychology there's this sort of curve that plots arousal on the x axis and performance on the y axis. The curve is a sort of bell curved shape-- if you're not aroused at all or too aroused, your performance is not at all good. When you are somewhere in between, that's peak performance.
It's like monks who need to relax and focus but not drop off to sleep.
Perhaps I'm taking many things out of context?

[AussieMark]

"Relaxing"

Hi Darryl,
Thankyou very much for having the kindness and thoughtfulness to write your response.


__________________________________________________
A very interesting account of a course.

The best advice I can give you is to relax and not worry about your practice. Dont look for things in your practice, dont expect things in your practice and - above all - dont rush your practice.
__________________________________________________


Yes. Absolutely, I agree with all of the above, and I have adhered to it for the best part of a year. However, there's one part of your last sentence that doesn't fit with me: "don't expect things in your practice".


I'm sorry, I do. Tell me something, if you go to a store, not just an ordinary store mind you, but the best store in the whole city! and from there, you buy not just a great product, but (allegedly) the very best! and then after you've paid for it, the manager says "Don't expect it to work" .. Do you:



(a) Question your sanity


(b) Question his

or
(c) Look at your hands, and realize that you are dreaming





Obviously it is incorrect to be "doing" anything whilst engaged in Self-Manifested Chi .. that would be going against the instructions of the master. And nobody knows better than the Master.

But, as I am sure you understand correctly, it is not only reasonably justifiable, but also ethically important to check one's Progress every now and then (i.e Monthly) to see how one's disposition is faring ..

To practice consistently for the best part of a year and not have any results is a rather unfortunate disposition, wouldn't you say ..



I have another question for you!

If after you bought the product and for the best part of a year you took it home and used it everyday and as much as you honestly & earnestly tried and hoped that it would work, and seemingly it didn't; when you return back to the store, and the "manager" says "Don't expect things to work"

Do you:


(a) Grab him in a headlock, and show him what Does work



(b) Question your sanity


or
(c) Look at your hands, and realize that you are dreaming




__________________________________________________
Being relaxed is not just a case of 'relax the legs and dont think of anything'. (Ironically, people who view this as being relaxed are usually the most tense people in the room). Being relaxed is just that, relaxing. Relax mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually. Don't have expectations of where your training may take you or what you might experience, don't dwell on your thoughts or thinking about thoughts, don't watch the clock and don't wait for something to happen. If you are still, then enjoy the stillness. If you fall to the ground, then relax on the ground. If you feel nothing going on and are not sure if anything is going on, then just enjoy your breathing and enjoy the silence.
__________________________________________________




Damn. I must look stupid. Perhaps they think I can't read a book, or follow instructions. Ok. I would like to reiterate, that I am not completey stupid, and that perhaps your initial diagnosis is incorrect. I say this because, I have followed all that you write above, to the letter ...



Now, heres a really funky question?



Just what in the Hell constitutes $1000 Chi Kung? And how does that differ from, $5 chi kung, $20 dollar chi kung, or perhaps $50, 000 chi kung.


Understatably, that's more rhetorical than anything.
People are doing "chi kung" everyday .. unconsciously .. watch them, observe people's inner and outer workings.

I do not want to appear ingreatful, or even the slightest bit angry when I say; Was what I learned Real Chi Kung? Or is it what Sifu calls, "lower level chi-kung". (i.e "May practice for years and year with little or no result")

________________________________________________
I have attended quite a few courses now and have recently started teaching at Sifu's request. At all courses and in all classes, I can quite happily say that you are not learning 'just positive visualisation'. In fact, quite the opposite ...
________________________________________________

Wow. You sound quite the salesman.

No really, congradulations. It's nice to see that you don't shy
away from a challenge.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... eventually I would teach my family and look after everyone with what I learn.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Darryl:
This is the first thing I would let go of. Heal yourself before you ever start thinking of healing others.
_________________________________________________



Absolutely, I was intending Long term ... but as you can imagine, I have been taught the "greatest art under heaven" so there should be no problem with that ... right ..




Thankyou and God bless,

M.

[Darryl]

Re: "Relaxing"

Originally posted by AussieMark
Tell me something, if you go to a store, not just an ordinary store mind you, but the best store in the whole city! and from there, you buy not just a great product, but (allegedly) the very best! and then after you've paid for it, the manager says "Don't expect it to work" ..

Hi Mark,

Just to clarify, I am saying not to have expectations in your practice, not that "It doesn't work". I already know it works, I enjoy the results of it working.

It's nice to see that you don't shy away from a challenge

I dont see a challenge. What I do see is someone having trouble in their personal practice, so I have offered some advice. If you wish to follow my advice, then we both move on. If you choose to dismiss my advice, that is your priviledge and again, we both move on. Either way, I am happily offerring advice and assistance.

But, as I am sure you understand correctly, it is not only reasonably justifiable, but also ethically important to check one's Progress every now and then (i.e Monthly) to see how one's disposition is faring ..

I would certainly agree that it is always a good thing to check your progress with expected results. If doing 'X' should result in 'Y', then I would expect to achieve 'Y' as long as I was doing 'X'. If I didn't achieve 'Y', then I would consider two main possibilities, namely -

1) - My 'X' is faulty
2) - My 'X" is correct, but 'X' doesn't work.

You have chosen Option 2, based from your own experience. In your case, I have chosen Option 1 based on my own experience, my students experiences and a whole host of other people's experiences.

I have followed all that you write above, to the letter

At the present moment, I must disagree. If you had practiced 'X", then you would have achieved 'Y'. From your initial post and your reply as well, I still hold to my initial comments and 'diagnosis' regarding personal relaxation and letting go of attachment.

Was what I learned Real Chi Kung? Or is it what Sifu calls, "lower level chi-kung". (i.e "May practice for years and year with little or no result")

To answer this, I'll use basic science. 100 people do 'X', 5 people dont achieve 'Y'. 95 people say 'X' works, 5 people say it doesn't. All 100 are basing their results on their own experiences.

Just what in the Hell constitutes $1000 Chi Kung? And how does that differ from, $5 chi kung, $20 dollar chi kung, or perhaps $50, 000 chi kung.

Perspective, results, direct experience, scope and potential.

Absolutely, I was intending Long term ... but as you can imagine, I have been taught the "greatest art under heaven" so there should be no problem with that ... right ..

Method, Master, Student. One out of three is not enough.