How would you handle a slugger? How do you know? How did you get there?

[drunken boxer]

Ok, so I trained today, with one of my esteemed sparring partners / instructors - I will need to check with them if its ok to name them on this thread - or if they want to weigh in!

I found the Happy Bird to be an excellent counter, when there was enough room. This is a big help straight away for those scenarios.
The thrust kick I couldn't use so well but this is simply because I am more skilful with the Happy Bird than with the thrust kick. My partner could employ the thrust kick to very good effect.

For the packed bar room / slugging scenario we moved on to the Precious Duck.
I have to say I was surprised at how well it seemed to work. Beforehand if I'm honest I could not picture in my mind ever using this, even after it was recommended by respected Sihengs on here. But I knew it was important to train it and try it before saying anything, and as always practise was totally different than intellectualisation.

What I found good was that it moved the head away from the target. Provided the partner plays the part of the slugger properly, ie doesn't switch to kung fu, or doesn't adjust the punch to land where the head will be during the precious duck. I find it very difficult to find sparring partners who can do this so am very pleased to have finally found them!
We practiced it with both people standing normally as they would be in this bar room situation, then the slugger would throw a punch and the responder would drop to bow arrow and Precious Duck.

I made many mistakes of course. Often I got a fairly hard connection of the punch to the guard hand, when I didn't move fast enough. This was no surprise as relatively speaking I can defend with my hands much better than I can move stances, kick etc.
Also my spacing was often off, I wasn't in the best position to land a hard Precious Duck. This was often due to a desperate effort to get away from the punch.

We practised with a fair bit of speed / force / intent. Now its about drilling this move and ramping up the speed force intent till its as realistic to a real vicious slugger as possible.

That is the main issue for me in all this, transitioning from a move that works in sparring to a move that works in a real fight.

[drunken boxer]

So, a senior brother who I've spoken with about this, pointed out that I didn't emphasise the main point of the thread, stated in my last post:

Now its about drilling this move and ramping up the speed force intent till its as realistic to a real vicious slugger as possible.

That is the main issue for me in all this, transitioning from a move that works in sparring to a move that works in a real fight.

The questions in my thread title were:
1 "How would you handle a slugger?"
2 "How do you know?"
3 "How did you get there?"

I've had great answers to 1 and to 3 but I'm not sure if anyone has answered about number 2.
By it, I mean specifically have you ever faced a real slugger in a close quarters situation and used Kungfu successfully, and if not how do you know it will work?

The reason I ask is because I have done friendly sparring and convinced myself I was good at certain things. But when I switched to unfriendly sparring, let alone meet a real attack, things were very different.

[Peter Clayton]

Thank you for starting this thread Paul,

The close-quarters no-space dance floor scenario is something that pops up for me from time to time and I am looking forward to seeing further responses.

Also, thank you to my brothers who have already posted - it has given me some good points to consider!

We'll have to meet up soon Paul - it's been too long

[Adam Kryder]

Fighting Fire with Water

The questions in my thread title were:
1 "How would you handle a slugger?"
2 "How do you know?"
3 "How did you get there?"

I've had great answers to 1 and to 3 but I'm not sure if anyone has answered about number 2.
By it, I mean specifically have you ever faced a real slugger in a close quarters situation and used Kungfu successfully, and if not how do you know it will work?

Dear Paul,

Interesting stuff, and indeed worthy of study.
I will share an experience to that effect...

2008 -
I was in a bar and invited to sit with some people who began talking and treating me to beers. A Drunk "Slugger", one of their friends began eyeing me and calling me out. Without saying anything he walked over, reached across the table and grabbed a bottle to hit me. He was directly facing me, he reached for the bottle with his right hand. When he grabbed it, I used two fingers, put it gently above his elbow and supported it with the centerline, 6 harmonies, and a smile. All his force was neutralized, and I walked away calmly, avoiding all conflict.

Lessons Learned:

-Control the elbow, you control the spine
-Fight fire with Water
-Enjoy the Night


From my vantage point and strict opinion,

No technique is worth anything without being supported by a Qi-Gong state of mind.

First train mind, then train fundamentals, then train techniques.

This has worked for me in "real" fights in every instance...

remember,
"it takes two to tango, or something like that..."
-Billy Madison

Best Wishes,

Adam

[Markus Kahila]

1 "How would you handle a slugger?"

- Using Shaolin Kungfu.

2 "How do you know?"

- Through experience in a controlled training environment.

Is a controlled training environment the same as facing a slugger in a real-life situation? Of course not. Anyone who thinks so is fooling himself.

Can I comfortably handle any and every slugger? No. Of course, if the opponent is significantly more strong, fast and/or skillful, he'll win the fight. But my first priority is coming out unharmed, not landing the most blows.

Personally, I'm far from being the best fighter in Shaolin Wahnam. But I know my training is on the right track.

How do you know it will work?

We train Shaolin Kungfu. The hallmarks of our combat training is the realistic application and implementation of tried and true techiniques for real-life fighting, and the complete methodology from basics to free fighting. Instead of asking "how do you know it will work?", I would recommend you to ask "why shouldn't it work?", or perhaps, "why hasn't it worked for me?".

It's good to bear in mind that just because we practise the greatest martial art doesn't mean we're automatically the best fighters. To become a really good fighter asks for direction, determination, courage, and perhaps above all else, honesty.

There is an abundance of pipe dreamers among traditional martial artists, especially among internal martial artists. Just because you've practised an art daily for years doesn't necessarily make you a good fighter - to achieve that, you also need vision and purpose. Being on autopilot doesn't get anyone very far. I have personal experience on this.


So how to make the transition from controlled training environment to real-life fighting?

Gradually. When you're happy with your results with your classmates, I would recommend to seek out practitioners of other styles and have friendly sessions with them. Then use what you've learned with them to enhance your kungfu in your personal practice. If you like - and if your Sifu thinks it's a good idea - you can also consider entering competitions.

I also wholeheartedly recommend attending the Warrior Project. When it comes to no-nonsense fighting, Taisihing Kai is a real fountain of experience and knowledge.


In any case, I would advise against seeking out unfriendly training / sparring situations. To put it simply, the harms far, far outweigh the benefits.



Best wishes,

[George]

But I bet you won't get these kind of attack in a ballroom dance floor.

You'll get plenty of elbow strikes instead.


Best wishes,

[Kingmonkey]

You'll get plenty of elbow strikes instead.


Best wishes,

Which could be avoided by just perfecting your footwork.
Enhancing either your Kung Fu or your dancing skills... or both at once...

[Martin Do]

Hello Sisook,

I will need to check with them if its ok to name them on this thread

I would like to remain anonymous please :.

You'll get plenty of elbow strikes instead.

Now thats what I call dirty dancing .

Best wishes everyone

Martin

[Hellsviking]

I found this clip interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy_a7xLzL6w&feature=related

Basically Anthony Cummins explains if Aikido is an effective martial art. He draws from its history to point out the differences of past battle field attacks to modern MMA ring fighting.

Seen as Shaolin was developed for the battle field, you may find it interesting too.

If Shaolin was developed for the battle field, a charging madman in a club should be pleasure.

MMA point of view: A multiple charge attack is called a straight blast.
You would either circle out (look down his ear) and take advantage of the angle or drop and do a take down.

If your anticipation and timing is good, then you may kick or strike to stop him in his tracks.

If you were too late; you would cage (cover your head, turtle your neck and make your abdomen small) close in and clinch him up, then use knees, elbows, dirty boxing, pull his head down and choke, or take to ground.

Erik

[kprazcreation]

Wouldn't the internal training make the difference if the guy is bigger and stronger? Wouldn't the opponent go down with one internal strike?
I don't understand how any external fighter can beat an internal fighter in that type of situation.

[karasu]

Hello Everyone

"I don't understand how any external fighter can beat an internal fighter in that type of situation."


One way to think about this is to think about brick breaking - there are some people who have trained themselves to break bricks using physical force and those that can use internal force. If either one of these marital artists manages to hit you, they would cause a lot of damage regardless of the type of force being used.

So, the deciding factor is going to be the level of skill of that the martial artist of fighter possesses and his ability to successfully execute his techniques.

Of course there are many health and other benefits to possessing internal force, where as there are many drawbacks to physically conditioning your hands so that you can break bricks.

Hope that helps
Gord .

[Martin Do]

Dear Eric and Kprazcreation,

Thank you for your contributions to this thread.

Eric, thank you for your opinion on how an MMA practitioner would deal with this sort of attack.

If Shaolin was developed for the battle field, a charging madman in a club should be pleasure.

Eric, please bare in mind that this is a student who struggles with one aspect of his practice. The student (my kungfu uncle - Paul) very openly and kindly started a thread on this because he wanted some advice for himself, whilst at the same time, to help other students who may struggle with "this" aspect of their training. Therefore, the issue Paul Sisook (Sisook means kungfu uncle) raises is not representative of all Shaolin Wahnam practioners. Furthermoremore, for those who are very able to use their kungfu, this form of attack is good to have an awareness of because it is the likely form of attack on the street as Paul Sisook pointed out.

Going back to your quote above, yes it would be a real pleasure for some of us. I myself have not been in martial arts for too long. Three years at Shaolin Wahnam and a total of about twelve months (on and off) with a great Wing Chun School in the UK prior to this where my very kind Sifu there also holds a black belt in BJJ. Despite not training specifically for the sluggish attack mentioned here in my training, I myself really fancy my chances against such an attack .

1 How would you handle a slugger?

With as much compassion and kindness as I can afford, and with the counters I am confortable with, skillfull with and believe works.

2 How do you know?

Asking my Kungfu brothers to slugger me and being able to defend successfully all the time. How do I really know? If my sparring partners allowed my to strike them full on, I believe I can stop them in their tracks before they throw the first punch, or after one, or two punches. So my partners will have to let me strike them full on if they don't believe me .

How do I know it would work against someone much bigger than me? I had the opportunity to practice with a colleague from Germany last year on a couple of accassions. I am 11 stones, 5 feet 11 inches and slim built. My colleague in almost 16 stones of muscle, 6 feet 3 inches, does Muay Thai and does competitions from time to time. From our practice, he did not feel stronger despite the obvious difference in size. Although we did not practice slugger attacks, he typically approached with 1-2 then other attackes depending on spacing. Again, if he allowed my to strike him full on with my counters, I sincerely believe there would not be further attacks from him .

3 How did you get there?

Diligent practice of what I am taught and working specifically on weaknesses I feel I have ie footwork, power in a particular strike etc, and enjoy my practice.

So, this is my experience. My seniors who are much more powerful and skill than I am, so you can imagine would handle this and other scenarios much much better.

Wouldn't the internal training make the difference if the guy is bigger and stronger? Wouldn't the opponent go down with one internal strike?
I don't understand how any external fighter can beat an internal fighter in that type of situation.

My example above should explain a little about size difference. Sifu Gordon answered your question well. Because you probably don't understand internal force fully, I would like to give you another example. Suppose two people is about to tangle, one holds a knife and the other has nothing. First impression is that the knife guy is likely to win. If the person holding the knife has poor "skill" but the other person has great "skill", it is likely the person holding the knife will get his elbow snapped, knee snapped, throat striked at or ribs broken before he even gets the knife near to his partner.

Anyhow, this has been a useful discussion so far and I hope "positive" contributions can continue to be made rather than insignificant digs and negativity.

Happy training everyone.

Best wishes

Martin

[Martin Do]

Dear kprazcreation,

Wouldn't the internal training make the difference if the guy is bigger and stronger? Wouldn't the opponent go down with one internal strike?
I don't understand how any external fighter can beat an internal fighter in that type of situation.

I wanted to add that although I believe a true internal art can help a practitioner to become a very formidable fighter.

For me, its greatest benefit (particularly in this day and age) are the physical and mental health it has given me, How it has helped me to become a better father to my children, a better husband to my wife, a better son to my parents, and a better brother to my brothers and sisters. How it has enabled me to help others around me through advice, kindness and recitations for them. How free I feel. How happy and peaceful I am constantly. How much more I enjoy this life with improved wisdom through practicing an internal art from a great school.

Happy training dear brothers and sisters.

Martin

[Hellsviking]

Originally Posted by Hellsviking
If Shaolin was developed for the battle field, a charging madman in a club should be a pleasure.
Originally Posted by Martin Do
Erik, please bare in mind that this is a student who struggles with one aspect of his practice....

Joke! But also thought provoking. On the battlefield the enemy would probably be charging at you with a weapon. If you think of it like that, it allows you to mentally rise to the fact that the slugger is unarmed. Thread (golden dragon) blat!

[kprazcreation]

Great replies! This is a good thread!